Author: "Lance" <lryahoo@...> Time: Sun Nov 9, 2003 5:18 am PST Link
Okay, I've been looking over Van's website and the various order
forms. I've been pining for the QuickBuild on the RV-10 at the same
time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
...is there such a thing as an empennage QuickBuild on ANY of Van's
aircraft? I may be missing it, but I didn't see it on other order
forms. It seems that everyone gets a "slowbuild" empennage,
regardless of whether they QB the wings or fuselage.
...if there will not be a QB empennage kit, is there any reason to
wait to order the empennage kit? Given that I will surely be ordering
QB wings and QB fuselage kits, is it likely I'll need to do anything
different in the empenage to account for differences introduced in
other kits?
The related question would be this: How "mature" is the empennage kit
(in particular, the plans and building manual/instructions)? As a
first-time builder, I'm hoping for an every-step-of-the-way manual
that really does a good job of handholding.
...and last, what are the build times for the empennage kits shaping
up to be?
If I can start pounding rivets soon, that would be Most Excellent.
Author: "Bob Hassel" <bob@...> Time: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:24 am PST Link
I'd be hard pressed to answer anything specific about the RV10 kits - for
awhile at least. However, on the other empennage kits there are no quick
builds for the other models. The emp kit for the 10 is more than the
standard emp kit. It is also part of the fuse so just to be really sure,
I'd ask Van's about the quick build option. Typically, the emp kit is left
as a non-quick build for several reasons. One reason of course is to help
you meet the 51% rule. Another is because everything you do in the emp kit
teaches you the skills and experiences you'll need to do the rest of the
kit.
Generally speaking one reason Van's tries to keep the emp kit cheaper than
the rest of the kits is so you can figure out if this is something you
really want to do without busting the bank. Be careful though once you get
started it's hard to stop. Some people get so addicted that they just keep
building even after they complete their first, second... aircraft(s). :)
Van's kit's and plans are more complete than most I've seen. While I have a
limited experience with other manufactures kits I do own plans for several
other aircraft. I did a lot of investigating and soul searching before
actually starting on my RV. For me the RV kits stood 'head and hand' above
the rest for a number of reasons.
One of the things I REALLY like about Van's is the thoroughness of the kits.
All the parts are there minus the engine and what'll you stuff in the panel.
You'll occasionally have to scratch your head and think. Maybe even once in
awhile you'll feel the need to ask a question to the group here or the
factory. That's the beauty of Van's, not only do they truly support you the
builder but so does the entire community.
There are a lot of people with a lot of experience in this community. THANK
YOU ALL!
The manuals and plans in general are well laid out. Giving you a step by
step, blow by blow instructions on what you need to do. They require some
reason. For example the instructions may say to dimple all the 3/32 rivet
holes along the spar of the skin. You have to look at the plans and figure
out which of the skin rivet holes are 3/32's (the plans tell you) and which
lie along the spar. It's not difficult. In the beginning, while you're
learning how to do these different things like prepping the metal, riveting,
etc you'll have a lot more questions about the details of each step.
Generally, though I spent more time worrying and scratching than actually
just doing it. Once you just do it, the task becomes easy and things just
go together. If it doesn't go together easily chances are you need to stand
back, reread the plans/instructions and look at what you're doing. It's
really about as close to 'tab a into slot b' as you can get and still be
building a real airplane. The quality and preciseness of the kits as they
come to you far exceed the frustration many XMas projects. No need to bring
out a hammer for banging or bending just to force things together. No
instructions that are poorly translated from an alien planet. No parts that
are designed and built by a disgruntled employee that just wants to get
their $93/hr for standing and scratching. What you'll see is quality, well
thought out kits that actually go together as easily as they say it will.
The kits evolve but when you get your kit delivered it will have the latest
plans version available. In addition the newsletter has updates and of
course news groups like these stay abreast of the development. Bottom
line...the kits are extremely well supported by a large group of
knowledgeable staff and an even larger user community.
The quick builds use the same pieces parts as the regular kits so you don't
have to do anything different. The only difference is someone else put it
together and your wallet is a little lighter for that effort. Order and
start now if this really the aircraft you want to build. There is no reason
to wait. You might even find you like building enough that you may only
order just the wings or just the fuse as a quick build and do the rest
yourself. Me I'm nutty enough to want to build the whole enchilada!
I'll let the lucky one's who have already started on the 10 chime in on the
10 specific questions. As always we lurkers are always listening for words
of experience and experiences from those who are doing. Now that my RV9 is
collecting dust waiting for my 10 kit I can't wait to get started again!!!!!
Basically, the building process itself is a tab 'A' into slot 'B' type of
affair. You'll learn a lot along the way, meet crazy fun people and end up
an incredible plane to fly around.
Good luck and start pounding rivets!!
Bob Hassel
-----Original Message-----
From: Lance [mailto:lryahoo@a...]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 11:13 PM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV10] Semi-generic Van's question re: Quickbuilds
Okay, I've been looking over Van's website and the various order
forms. I've been pining for the QuickBuild on the RV-10 at the same
time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
...is there such a thing as an empennage QuickBuild on ANY of Van's
aircraft? I may be missing it, but I didn't see it on other order
forms. It seems that everyone gets a "slowbuild" empennage,
regardless of whether they QB the wings or fuselage.
...if there will not be a QB empennage kit, is there any reason to
wait to order the empennage kit? Given that I will surely be ordering
QB wings and QB fuselage kits, is it likely I'll need to do anything
different in the empenage to account for differences introduced in
other kits?
The related question would be this: How "mature" is the empennage kit
(in particular, the plans and building manual/instructions)? As a
first-time builder, I'm hoping for an every-step-of-the-way manual
that really does a good job of handholding.
...and last, what are the build times for the empennage kits shaping
up to be?
If I can start pounding rivets soon, that would be Most Excellent.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Lori Millsap" <lmillsap@...> Time: Sun Nov 9, 2003 6:59 am PST Link
I would like to encourage you to go ahead and order the empennage kit. My
husband and I, although we are experienced builders, were AMAZED by how
straight-forward and easy to read the RV-10 empennage kit is (when compared
to the RV-6A empennage we built in 1998). Yesterday, we flew over to an open
house in Tuscaloosa, AL, where I told a group of builders that "even a girl
could build this plane"--LOL! See, that's the kind of comment that only a
wife could get away with, but I meant it in the most empowered sort of way,
honest.
Our running-gag when we were building the 6A was that "if something happens
to me, will you finish building this plane?" I always said yes, but I really
meant, "I'm not sure I could." I am *much* more confident that I could build
the RV-10 alone, however. Some of that confidence is simply experience with
the complete process, of course, but much of it is because this prepunched,
predrilled, well-labeled kit with step-by-step plans inspires that
confidence.
We were also planning to order QB kits, but I think that this assembly is
going move fast enought to put us just ahead of production of QB. We are
going to order whichever kit is available when we are ready to assemble it.
On the other hand, if you order the QB kit, the empennage will be built FOR
YOU. It is part of the completed process. On our RV-6A (QB), we ordered the
empennage as a trial for ourselves, to verify we could build the rest of the
plane. So then, we didn't include the QB empennage in our kit when they
shipped everything else.
Decisions, decisions...GRIN. But I do think building the empennage yourself
might answer whether you should spend another $30K on a very large and
daunting project.
Best,
Lori Millsap
N464DM, RV-6A
#40112, organized the kit, and rudder close to final assembly in four
days...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lance" <lryahoo@a...>
To: <RV10@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 11:13 PM
Subject: [RV10] Semi-generic Van's question re: Quickbuilds
> Okay, I've been looking over Van's website and the various order
> forms. I've been pining for the QuickBuild on the RV-10 at the same
> time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
> ...is there such a thing as an empennage QuickBuild on ANY of Van's
> aircraft? I may be missing it, but I didn't see it on other order
> forms. It seems that everyone gets a "slowbuild" empennage,
> regardless of whether they QB the wings or fuselage.
>
> ...if there will not be a QB empennage kit, is there any reason to
> wait to order the empennage kit? Given that I will surely be ordering
> QB wings and QB fuselage kits, is it likely I'll need to do anything
> different in the empenage to account for differences introduced in
> other kits?
>
> The related question would be this: How "mature" is the empennage kit
> (in particular, the plans and building manual/instructions)? As a
> first-time builder, I'm hoping for an every-step-of-the-way manual
> that really does a good job of handholding.
>
> ...and last, what are the build times for the empennage kits shaping
> up to be?
>
> If I can start pounding rivets soon, that would be Most Excellent.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Bob Condrey" <bob.condrey@...> Time: Sun Nov 9, 2003 9:37 am PST Link
As a new builder myself I'm qualified to give you a non-biased
response about the emp kits.
The quality and accuracy of the kits is outstanding. I was however
concerned about my own abilities to be able to do a quality job of
building the kit since I haven't build a plane of any sort before.
On the advice of others I ordered the RV training kit ($32) from
Van's and build it while waiting for the emp to arrive. The training
kit gives you a chance to use most of the tools/techniques that
you'll have to use for the actual airframe and build some
confidence. In fact, the training kit is not prepunched and the
instructions are anywhere near as good as the ones that come with the
kit. I'd say that if you can get through the training kit you're in
great shape.
Bob
Author: "Dennis and Stephanie Smith" <famflier@...> Time: Sun Nov 9, 2003 12:44 pm PST Link
What everyone has said about the quality of the RV-10 kit is true. My wife
and I have just started the empennage/tailcone kit. It is our first all
metal airplane project (I have built an Avid Flyer with a Corvair engine,
which was tube and fabric mostly). We took a one-day seminar on RV building
that was very helpful for learning techniques and needed tools for metal
building.
It took me just two days to get the vertical stabilizer completely clecoed
together. Still some smooothing, dimpling, and priming to do before
pounding rivets, but that should not take long either. With consistent
effort this kit will assemble rapidly.
The manual/plans are much improved for the -10, according to my friends that
have built previous models. I find them pretty easy to follow and
understand.
We decided not to wait for the QB kits (at least the wing). The empennage
is a good test of our abilities and a good confidence builder for the rest
of the kit. I expect to be building the wing around January (kit already
ordered). I hope to have the wing finished before the QB kit is even
available.
I have the advantage of living near the factory, so I can pick my stuff up
there, tour the factory, chat with the engineers, etc., pretty much whenever
I want. Then, after seeing the -10 in person a few times it was an easy
decision to make. My building experience so far with the empennage has
fortified my initial impression that it will be a project that I can
complete in a timely manner even without the QB kits.
I have no doubt that this airplane will become as common as Cessna 172s
eventually, but at least we will be able to fly circles around them!!
Go ahead and get a kit. You'll be riveting in a very short time!
Dennis and Stephanie Smith
#97 Oregon
-------Original Message-------
From: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 09, 2003 5:18:39 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV10] Semi-generic Van's question re: Quickbuilds
Okay, I've been looking over Van's website and the various order
forms. I've been pining for the QuickBuild on the RV-10 at the same
time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
....is there such a thing as an empennage QuickBuild on ANY of Van's
aircraft? I may be missing it, but I didn't see it on other order
forms. It seems that everyone gets a "slowbuild" empennage,
regardless of whether they QB the wings or fuselage.
....if there will not be a QB empennage kit, is there any reason to
wait to order the empennage kit? Given that I will surely be ordering
QB wings and QB fuselage kits, is it likely I'll need to do anything
different in the empenage to account for differences introduced in
other kits?
The related question would be this: How "mature" is the empennage kit
(in particular, the plans and building manual/instructions)? As a
first-time builder, I'm hoping for an every-step-of-the-way manual
that really does a good job of handholding.
....and last, what are the build times for the empennage kits shaping
up to be?
If I can start pounding rivets soon, that would be Most Excellent.
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "PJ" <sparkles_9802@...> Time: Sun Nov 9, 2003 12:46 pm PST Link
> The related question would be this: How "mature" is the empennage
kit
> (in particular, the plans and building manual/instructions)? As a
> first-time builder, I'm hoping for an every-step-of-the-way manual
> that really does a good job of handholding.
>
can start pounding rivets soon, that would be Most Excellent.
The RV-10 plans are much, much, much easier to read than plans for
the previous aircraft. Although the -10 is my first kit, I have
helped on several others, so I have a little experience with how
their plans read. The -10 plans include step by step instructions,
with the diagrams right there on the same page. It is broken down
into chapters (VS, rudder, HS, elevators, tailcone, putting it all
together). If you read the instructions and follow them in order,
it would be very hard to make a mistake.
As for how mature the kit is and how long it takes...I got my kit on
10 October, and the only thing finished is the VS. I have the
rudder half done, and am working on the elevators. Slow? Yes, but
other people are catching the mistakes in the plans for me. I got a
sheet in the mail yesterday from Van's with (minor) plans
corrections/revisions. So you still have to use some common sense
when building. There are a few places where the rivets called out
are too short, and in the corrections it showed some places where
the drill size was specified wrong, but if you were paying attention
it would have been obvious.
To sum it up: I was worried at first whether I could build this
myself, but the plans and kit are so good that I have plenty of
confidence now.
PJ Seipel
#40032
Author: "Tim Lewis" <timrv6a@...> Time: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:52 pm PST Link
> ...is there such a thing as an empennage QuickBuild on ANY of Van's
> aircraft? I may be missing it, but I didn't see it on other order
> forms. It seems that everyone gets a "slowbuild" empennage, regardless
> of whether they QB the wings or fuselage.
That's not quite right.
For example, the quickbuild -6 comes with all of the empennage pieces
(except the rudder) already assembled. The QB -6 builder makes the
rudder and a few miscellaneous small pieces, then attaches all of the pieces
of the empennage to the QB fuselage and to each other.
According to both Tom and Van, the -10 is different. Even if you buy a
QB -10, you'll still have to build the entire "slow build" empennage. Thus
there is no down side to ordering the empennage kit and starting whenever
you like. QB or slow build, all -10 builders will build the slow build
empennage.
> The related question would be this: How "mature" is the empennage kit
> (in particular, the plans and building manual/instructions)? As a
> first-time builder, I'm hoping for an every-step-of-the-way manual
> that really does a good job of handholding.
The -10 manual appears to be much easier to follow than was the -6
instructions/plans. Detailed, clear, thorough.
Caveat: I've inventoried my -10 empennage kit, but have not started
pounding rivets... I've been spending all my free time on the annual for my
-6A. I hope to finish the annual tomorrow, and start on the -10 on
Tuesday.
TTFN
Tim Lewis******
Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA)
RV-6A N47TD - First Flight 18 Dec 99
http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a
******
Author: "rv7pete" <RV10Pete@...> Time: Sun Nov 9, 2003 7:54 pm PST Link
Two words: ORDER IT!
I am a first time builder who was very concerned.....but not any
longer. My advice is to try to do what I have been able to do.
Join your local EAA chapter. Find a couple of experienced RV
builders. Host builders night at your house.....ours is every
Tuesday. My wife cooks dinner for them.....and I get help in the
shop for a couple of hours. This began as a tradition with the two
of them (Bill Gast -6 and Gene Larson -9) while they were building
their planes.......and now that they are finished...they have
continued the tradition at my house. So far they have helped set up
the shop, run wiring and heat, and helped blow insulation. To make
matters even better...they brought tools.....and lots of EXPERTISE!
At last months meeting...another member, builder of a Galstar, Paul
Steingrabe loaned me even more tools.
Since then, I have picked up yet another builder who is waiting for
inspection on his RV-6 to be final, Roger Bocox.....he has stopped by
to help twice and is coming again on Tuesday.
I am currently waiting to get the primer delivered to prime
parts.....the first priming session should be next weekend....but
during that first priming session, we will paint the Vertical stab,
Rudder, and horizontal stab....maybe even the elevators. So a week
from today..I should be pounding rivets on the first 4 major
structures.....and I've only had the kit for 3 WEEKS!
Now I need Santa Clause to leave more money under the money/Christmas
tree!
The one word of caution that I have is......keeping experienced
builders in check can be HARD! They charge ahead because it all
looks familiar......and if you don't read the plans a FULL paragraph
at a time....you end up with holes countersinked that shouldn't
be.....not life or part threatening....but not exactly right either.
I now go through the plans with my red Sharpie.....and highlight and
circle....before a single tool gets picked up by ANYONE!
At last nights Chapter 135 meeting......3 more people asked if they
could come help......I need more shop space and more benches......I
could build this thing in 6 months based on the ease of building and
all the help.
Get goin'! Times a wastin'!
Pete
Author: "Lance" <lryahoo@...> Time: Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:38 pm PST Link
>
> Get goin'! Times a wastin'!
>
> Pete
First thing new year, Tex. :)
(tax reasons)