Author: "geraldmorrissey" <geraldmorrissey@...> Time: Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:59 am PST Link
Has anyone got an approxmate cost per hour to fly for this beast? I'm
told that $17.00-20.00 per hour is a fairly good number for engine
reserve for an IO-520 with a 1,500 or so TBO. Probably much lower if
you do your own overhaul I suspect. Say based on 150 hours per year
for someone with 750 hrs total time. Insurance, fuel, tiedown,
unexpected maintenance. I know its a tough one (how long is a piece
of string) but just curious if anyone has created a spreadsheet. My
search didn't come up with much. Maybe I didn't use the right
keywords.
Gerry
Author: linn walters <lwalters2@...> Time: Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:42 am PST Link
geraldmorrissey wrote:
> Has anyone got an approxmate cost per hour to fly for this beast? I'm
> told that $17.00-20.00 per hour is a fairly good number for engine
> reserve for an IO-520 with a 1,500 or so TBO. Probably much lower if
> you do your own overhaul I suspect. Say based on 150 hours per year
> for someone with 750 hrs total time. Insurance, fuel, tiedown,
> unexpected maintenance. I know its a tough one (how long is a piece
> of string) but just curious if anyone has created a spreadsheet. My
> search didn't come up with much. Maybe I didn't use the right
> keywords.
> Gerry
Well, there isn't a whole lot of RV10 data available, naturally, but you
can pick almost any 4 place with the same size engine and start your
search again. The question I have is "Why do you want to know?" You
can't be using $$$ to justify flying/owning your own airplane, because
that's impossible. Unless it's making money in the long run, you can't
justify it. Try and justify any of your reacretional vehicles (boat,
motorcycle, travel trailer, motorhome etc.) ...... well, don't because
you won't like the answer. If all you want to do is plan for the future
or see if you can afford it ....... well, that's down the same path to
mental anguish. HOWEVER, do not despair. If you want something bad
enough, you will afford it. I couldn't afford my first airplane .....
but I did. And I used that to help finance my second (without getting
rid of the first), and now I'm playing with three. Don't even think
that I can justify it. It's my hobby, hobbies are expensive (relatively
anyway) and I get a lot of pleasure out of my hobby. It keeps me off
the streets, out of bars, and mostly broke ...... so a woman looking for
a rich husband won't hit on me. That's the only positive thing in this
flying mess that my wive sees as a plus.
I don't keep tabs on what my hobby costs, because I just don't want to
know. It all adds up. My suggestion is go visit a flying club and ask
them for some info. I'll do that on my end. there's a flying club in
the hangar next to me that's got an IFR C-172 and they might give me the
data.
So, my advice is that if you don't own an airplane now, don't be
conservative on your estimates. My buddies Glastar has a $50K panel in
it (Apollo MFD and GPS comm) without an autopilot. It's a nice panel
and he didn't let the bucks get in his way. Call an insurance company
and get a quote for an airplane that's similar to the one you want
(don't use the RV10 because they don't know what it is yet) with your
hours etc. Then find out what hangar rent is. Use 50 hrs/year as your
flying hours. YMMV, but it's a start. I've flown between 50 and
150/year with 100 as a good average. Look at the fuel burn and the
local cost for fuel. Oil is cheap ..... 24 qts/year should be good (oil
change 2 times @ 25 hours X 6 qts = 12 and that leaves 12 qts to fly
with!). You should also factor in the cost of an engine ..... look in
TAP to see how much one costs and factor the cost/hour in. Also, find
out how much and annual costs in your neck of the woods are. The
inspection and repairs are separate. How much of the work are you
capable and willing to do? That will lower your costs some. How long
will you keep your airplane? If it's a keeper, bear in mind that
airplanes kept in good shape will appreciate and be worth more at resale
time.
This should give you a good idea, and it will take some work on your
part. Then again, some masochist just may have kept really good records
and will pass on the info.
Best of luck!
Linn
Author: "geraldmorrissey" <geraldmorrissey@...> Time: Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:34 am PST Link
Thanks for the comments Linn, but I must respectfully disagree. Cost
is a factor for me. I will be retiring within the next 7-10 years and
I want a plane that I can afford to fly in my retirement years. I
currently own a Cessna 150 that has treated me very well over the
years. I do as much of the routine maintainence as the FAR's allow
and do owner assisted Annual inspections. But it still costs $40-
50.00/hr to fly depending how many hrs a year I fly. And airplanes
don't come much more basic then a 150. A guy 2 hangers down from me
has a late model Cessna 210 that cost him $180/hr to fly based on 75
hrs a year. As much as I'd like to have that plane, it is out of my
league. That would have to be my only hobby and that would be
unacceptable. Many of the new 150 buyers are people moving down from
larger aircraft they can no longer afford. My gut feel is this
airplane is going to fall in the middle somewhere $60-90/hr to
operate. I may be wrong but I bet I'll not be off by much. The saving
graces are a simple airframe, no retractable gear, inspections
preformed by the owner and its new. Those factors will save a ton of
money. This plane will still probably be on the edge for my budget.
Gerry
Author: "Lance" <lryahoo@...> Time: Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:07 pm PST Link
> Has anyone got an approxmate cost per hour to fly for this beast?
You'll find that the engine consumes by far the greatest amount of
money, both as fuel and as a maintenance-sink.
Costs consists of four categories:
fixed interval expenses (which occur according to the calendar).
Annuals on the airframe and engine, biannuals on various intruments
and avionics, etc., plus insurance and hangar fees). These costs
accumulate whether you fly or don't fly, but at least you know
they're coming and about how much they'll be. These are NOT per-hour
expenses, and I don't count them as an hourly expense... I'll just
grit my teeth and fork over the dough. For me, these expenses will be
about $8,000 a year (hangars are bloody EXPENSIVE in San Jose!).
variable interval expenses (which occur according to the Hobbes).
100-hours on the engine and airframe, plus that big nasty 2000-hour.
These costs accumulate at a rate that depend upon how much you fly,
but you don't pay for them right at that moment. Again, you can
estimate about how much this will be, and the "when" is in your hands
according to your flying habits. For me, these expenses add up to a
bit over $10 per hour.
flight expenses (gas, oil, transient fees away from home). This is
something you pay as you fly. You can figure this out pretty easily,
and you know exactly when you pay: when you fly. For me, this will be
a bit more than $16 per hour.
unexpected expenses (busted parts). This is the hard one. You don't
know in advance when your vaccuum pump will die or when a prop-blown
rock will take out your pitot tube. This also covers nasty surprises
found during inspections (but it's better to find them on the
ground!). You'll want to establish a rainy-day fund to pay for this.
I'm figuring on $5 per hour.
None of the above include shiny new toys that you'll undoubtedly want
for your plane. This depends entirely upon whether you're as weak-
willed as I am :)
As mentioned earlier, most of this is engine-dependent. How good your
engine is, how new it is, whether you baby it or put it to hard
labor, whether it's a Lycoming, Subaru, etc., whether you give your
IA mechanic a bottle of Something Nice every Christmas. It all goes
into the mix. Some engines will be noticably cheaper than others to
maintain. Research! Schmooze! Suck-up! Do whatever it takes (short
of "deferred maintenance"... ugh!) to streamline your engine expenses.
Don't forget the costs associated with maintaining a constant-speed
prop, if you choose to go with one. They have their own maintenance
needs.
Just remember, "most" is not "all". There are things that wear out
that don't spin the prop... tires, upholstery/carpet, landing lights,
weather-stripping around the doors, grips on the joystick. These
aren't huge expenses, but don't let 'em surprise you.
As a homebuilder, you'll have that precious Repairman certificate.
That means that the annuals, biannuals, and 2000-hour cycles are
something that you're allowed to do yourself. You'll pay for parts,
instrument calibrations, and for an IA to do the things you're not
comfortable with. How deep you're willing to go into your engine's
internals is something you'll have to decide for yourself. That's one
area in which the Lycomings are friendlier than auto conversions...
they're primitive ("simple" if you prefer), and therefore a whole lot
easier to get into and out of... at least, until you hit the carb :)
Okay, that being said... my "wet finger in the wind" for my Ten is
about $32 per hour, assuming I get 250 hours a year (and I'm damned
sure gonna try!). Half of that is flight-time expense, the other half
is for amortized expenses. I just have to be disciplined enough to
put $16 an hour into the bank at the end of each month, because i
KNOW those expenses are waiting for me. This is heavily influenced by
my plan to use a Subaru (lower overhaul costs, burns $1.70-a-gallon
unleaded instead of $2.70-a-gallon 100LL, and less of it... I'm also
more willing to tread this less-taken path than those who choose the
Lycoming). If I went with a Lycoming, I'd estimate a grand total of
about 46 per hour, due mostly to the higher cost of 100LL and the
engine maintenance cycles.
I can live with that 32. Including 15 minutes taxi-runup/shutdown at
each end, my expected per-mile costs are very, very close to the
amortized cost per mile of my VW Passat (not including depreciation).
So why drive when you can fly? :)
I'm not including any change in resale value, given that this is my
baby and I'm going to keep her forever! However, my assmuptions would
be: I would expect the value to peak around 300 hours (because that's
when confidence in the quality of the build will be highest in the
mind of a buyer, and there's still a LONG way to go until that
2,000), and it will be more than what you put into the plane (buyers
DO in fact value your labor). I'm going to spend around 90k, and I
suspect I could sell it for $125k or so with 250-300 trouble-free
hours. From there, it would drop.
But you wouldn't sell YOUR baby!
See you in the skies in Summer 2005...