Author: "dave_rv10" <dave.emond@...> Time: Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:05 am PST Link
I have recently received my RV 10 tailcone kit - #159. As a novice
to kit aircraft assembly, I am interested in hearing from those with
experience, what corrosion protection I should be taking to ensure
that once my RV 10 is complete, I will spend more time flying, and
less time repairing corrosion. I live near the coast, and although
the aircraft will be hangered, it will be exposed to warm salt air.
Vans Quick Build kits have tradionally been supplied primed with a
Sherwin Williams primer, would this coupled to annual treatments of
ACF -50 suffice. All advice would be appreciated.
Dave
Author: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@...> Time: Mon Jan 26, 2004 9:31 am PST Link
>I have recently received my RV 10 tailcone kit - #159. As a novice
>to kit aircraft assembly, I am interested in hearing from those with
>experience, what corrosion protection I should be taking to ensure
>that once my RV 10 is complete, I will spend more time flying, and
>less time repairing corrosion. I live near the coast, and although
>the aircraft will be hangered, it will be exposed to warm salt air.
>Vans Quick Build kits have tradionally been supplied primed with a
>Sherwin Williams primer, would this coupled to annual treatments of
>ACF -50 suffice. All advice would be appreciated.
>
>Dave
Dave,
This topic has been discussed at great length in the RV forums. The
airframe even in bare metal, will likely outlive you if it is hangared and
not subject to exposure to the elements all the time. The aluminum coating
on the alloy parts are very resistant to corrosion, hence the term "alclad"
(aluminum clad).
For additional protection, you can apply most any brand of primer to the
mating surfaces only, to protect against water entrapment in the various
nooks and crannies of the airframe. Even the same kind of materials when
touched together will have some small amount of galvanic (electrical)
reaction which can trigger corrosion. I'm applying zinc phosphate or
chromate to the riveted junctions only, and not coating the entire interior
of the airframe. I primed everything on my RV8, and really don't think it
was worth the time and expense.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
_________________________________________________________________
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Author: "Tony Howard" <ahoward@...> Time: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:48 am PST Link
I'll just add my 2 cents or is it t'uppence worth.
I'm now semi-retired from a career where I've been involved with aircraft
design and support, air cushion vehicle design and support and spacecraft
design and support as well as propulsion systems. I also did a stint
associated with gas production platforms located at sea. Corrosion and
corrosion protection was a serious consideration for equipment that is/was
going to be living in and operated a maritime environment. One of my first
experiences was visiting the environmental assessment labatory operated by
the British Fleet Air Arm and their aircraft and engine overhaul
establishments. I saw some horror stories. This was in the early 60's so
hopefully we've progressed since then. My last 'job' was associated with new
product design at Bombardier Aerospace. We spend an awful lot of time
concerning ourselves with the detail design where corrosion could be a
problem. This involves such mundane things as drain paths for moisture,
condensation etc and drainage where pooling might occur, to the
anti-corrosion processes and finishes that would be applied to the structure
and components. So if I were building an airplane that was going to spend
most of its time in a maritime environment and it was my money and my time
that went into it I would look into the latest in protection techniques that
were available and take the effort to apply them.
Corrosion is insidious and I've seen examples of it where 'this wasn't
supposed to happen'. On retractable landing gear, for example, trunions and
pivot bearings, can get really bad.
Tony Howard
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Denk [mailto:akroguy@h...]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:50 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [RV10] Protecting your RV 10 against corrosion
>I have recently received my RV 10 tailcone kit - #159. As a novice
>to kit aircraft assembly, I am interested in hearing from those with
>experience, what corrosion protection I should be taking to ensure
>that once my RV 10 is complete, I will spend more time flying, and
>less time repairing corrosion. I live near the coast, and although
>the aircraft will be hangered, it will be exposed to warm salt air.
>Vans Quick Build kits have tradionally been supplied primed with a
>Sherwin Williams primer, would this coupled to annual treatments of
>ACF -50 suffice. All advice would be appreciated.
>
>Dave
Dave,
This topic has been discussed at great length in the RV forums. The
airframe even in bare metal, will likely outlive you if it is hangared and
not subject to exposure to the elements all the time. The aluminum
coating
on the alloy parts are very resistant to corrosion, hence the term
"alclad"
(aluminum clad).
For additional protection, you can apply most any brand of primer to the
mating surfaces only, to protect against water entrapment in the various
nooks and crannies of the airframe. Even the same kind of materials when
touched together will have some small amount of galvanic (electrical)
reaction which can trigger corrosion. I'm applying zinc phosphate or
chromate to the riveted junctions only, and not coating the entire
interior
of the airframe. I primed everything on my RV8, and really don't think it
was worth the time and expense.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
_________________________________________________________________
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experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1
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Author: "Jack Sargeant" <k5wiv@...> Time: Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:47 am PST Link
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Denk" <akroguy@h...> wrote:
>
> >I have recently received my RV 10 tailcone kit - #159. As a novice
> >to kit aircraft assembly, I am interested in hearing from those
with
> >experience, what corrosion protection I should be taking to ensure
> >that once my RV 10 is complete, I will spend more time flying, and
> >less time repairing corrosion. I live near the coast, and although
> >the aircraft will be hangered, it will be exposed to warm salt
air.
> >Vans Quick Build kits have tradionally been supplied primed with a
> >Sherwin Williams primer, would this coupled to annual treatments
of
> >ACF -50 suffice. All advice would be appreciated.
> >
> >Dave
> Dave,
>
> This topic has been discussed at great length in the RV forums.
The
> airframe even in bare metal, will likely outlive you if it is
hangared and
> not subject to exposure to the elements all the time. The
aluminum coating
> on the alloy parts are very resistant to corrosion, hence the
term "alclad"
> (aluminum clad).
>
> For additional protection, you can apply most any brand of primer
to the
> mating surfaces only, to protect against water entrapment in the
various
> nooks and crannies of the airframe. Even the same kind of
materials when
> touched together will have some small amount of galvanic
(electrical)
> reaction which can trigger corrosion. I'm applying zinc phosphate
or
> chromate to the riveted junctions only, and not coating the entire
interior
> of the airframe. I primed everything on my RV8, and really don't
think it
> was worth the time and expense.
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> RV10 '51
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your
high-speed
> experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1
Brian,
If you want to prime the mating surfaces on your airplane, go ahead,
but please don't advise others to do this potentially disastrous
thing. Most primers are insulators, and by priming the mating
surfaces you interfere with the electrical bond which is necessary
to avoid many problems with precipitation static, lightning path
conduction, and many other electromagnetic events. Yes, the rivets
do provide some bonding, but not enough. The use of a conductive
corrosion inhibitor, such as alodyne or one of the rare conductive
primers on these joints is a good idea, but the use of an insulator
like most primers is bad.
OK, since I havent built an RV (or any other homebuilt) what are my
qualifications for this advice? I am an Electromagnetic
Compatability Engineer for a major aircraft manufacturer.
I'm not yet sure just what I will do when I start to build my RV,
but I will NOT use an insulating primer on the mating surfaces.
Author: "Mark Lamon" <mlamon@...> Time: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:47 pm PST Link
corrosion processes = Metal's way of returning the the earth from witch it
came.
Remember! "Rust never sleeps"
:) Mark #167
STILL sheetrocking
Author: "Mark Lamon" <mlamon@...> Time: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:49 pm PST Link
Jack,
How do you feel about soaking the completed joint down with primer after
the seam is riveted? The primer would not then act as an insulator and
should run/coat most of the small moisture entrapment areas.
(joke)You could use bonding straps from each part to the adjoining part! :)
(joke) Hey someone should make rivets with small electrical connectors on
them, then you could bond the primered rivet to the parts you are riveting,
and the primered rivet next to it! :)
Mark # 167 Hi Mike!
Author: Thomas Ricks <rv10fan2003@...> Time: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:48 pm PST Link
Well here it goes, there are certain minimum steps you should take, (ie metal on metal contact). After that, it is a function of where the aircraft will be kept, how it will be used (a seaplane in the North Atlantic???) and how it will be stored (ie hanger or outside)...Corrosion can best be treated by prevention, but you must evaluate your own use of the aircraft and strike a rational balance.
Tony Howard <ahoward@e...> wrote:I'll just add my 2 cents or is it t'uppence worth.
I'm now semi-retired from a career where I've been involved with aircraft
design and support, air cushion vehicle design and support and spacecraft
design and support as well as propulsion systems. I also did a stint
associated with gas production platforms located at sea. Corrosion and
corrosion protection was a serious consideration for equipment that is/was
going to be living in and operated a maritime environment. One of my first
experiences was visiting the environmental assessment labatory operated by
the British Fleet Air Arm and their aircraft and engine overhaul
establishments. I saw some horror stories. This was in the early 60's so
hopefully we've progressed since then. My last 'job' was associated with new
product design at Bombardier Aerospace. We spend an awful lot of time
concerning ourselves with the detail design where corrosion could be a
problem. This involves such mundane things as drain paths for moisture,
condensation etc and drainage where pooling might occur, to the
anti-corrosion processes and finishes that would be applied to the structure
and components. So if I were building an airplane that was going to spend
most of its time in a maritime environment and it was my money and my time
that went into it I would look into the latest in protection techniques that
were available and take the effort to apply them.
Corrosion is insidious and I've seen examples of it where 'this wasn't
supposed to happen'. On retractable landing gear, for example, trunions and
pivot bearings, can get really bad.
Tony Howard
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Denk [mailto:akroguy@h...]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:50 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [RV10] Protecting your RV 10 against corrosion
>I have recently received my RV 10 tailcone kit - #159. As a novice
>to kit aircraft assembly, I am interested in hearing from those with
>experience, what corrosion protection I should be taking to ensure
>that once my RV 10 is complete, I will spend more time flying, and
>less time repairing corrosion. I live near the coast, and although
>the aircraft will be hangered, it will be exposed to warm salt air.
>Vans Quick Build kits have tradionally been supplied primed with a
>Sherwin Williams primer, would this coupled to annual treatments of
>ACF -50 suffice. All advice would be appreciated.
>
>Dave
Dave,
This topic has been discussed at great length in the RV forums. The
airframe even in bare metal, will likely outlive you if it is hangared and
not subject to exposure to the elements all the time. The aluminum
coating
on the alloy parts are very resistant to corrosion, hence the term
"alclad"
(aluminum clad).
For additional protection, you can apply most any brand of primer to the
mating surfaces only, to protect against water entrapment in the various
nooks and crannies of the airframe. Even the same kind of materials when
touched together will have some small amount of galvanic (electrical)
reaction which can trigger corrosion. I'm applying zinc phosphate or
chromate to the riveted junctions only, and not coating the entire
interior
of the airframe. I primed everything on my RV8, and really don't think it
was worth the time and expense.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
_________________________________________________________________
Let the new MSN Premium Internet Software make the most of your high-speed
experience. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/prem&ST=1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@...> Time: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:48 pm PST Link
> > Dave,
> >
> > This topic has been discussed at great length in the RV forums.
>The
> > airframe even in bare metal, will likely outlive you if it is
>hangared and
> > not subject to exposure to the elements all the time. The
>aluminum coating
> > on the alloy parts are very resistant to corrosion, hence the
>term "alclad"
> > (aluminum clad).
> >
> > For additional protection, you can apply most any brand of primer
>to the
> > mating surfaces only, to protect against water entrapment in the
>various
> > nooks and crannies of the airframe. Even the same kind of
>materials when
> > touched together will have some small amount of galvanic
>(electrical)
> > reaction which can trigger corrosion. I'm applying zinc phosphate
>or
> > chromate to the riveted junctions only, and not coating the entire
>interior
> > of the airframe. I primed everything on my RV8, and really don't
>think it
> > was worth the time and expense.
> >
> > Brian Denk
> > RV8 N94BD
> > RV10 '51
>Brian,
>
>If you want to prime the mating surfaces on your airplane, go ahead,
>but please don't advise others to do this potentially disastrous
>thing. Most primers are insulators, and by priming the mating
>surfaces you interfere with the electrical bond which is necessary
>to avoid many problems with precipitation static, lightning path
>conduction, and many other electromagnetic events. Yes, the rivets
>do provide some bonding, but not enough. The use of a conductive
>corrosion inhibitor, such as alodyne or one of the rare conductive
>primers on these joints is a good idea, but the use of an insulator
>like most primers is bad.
>
>OK, since I havent built an RV (or any other homebuilt) what are my
>qualifications for this advice? I am an Electromagnetic
>Compatability Engineer for a major aircraft manufacturer.
>
>I'm not yet sure just what I will do when I start to build my RV,
>but I will NOT use an insulating primer on the mating surfaces.
Then evidently HUNDREDS (thousands?) of RV's flying worldwide are unsafe and
subject to instant vaporization if a thunderstorm should roll overhead or
anywhere near the flight path of the aircraft?
We're building simple, affordable aircraft and not spacecraft or passenger
airliners with bazillions of sensitive components and safety systems. Then
I also surmise that standard airframe maintenance practices of sheet metal
repairs and structural repairs are unairworthy if any form of primer is used
on any mating surface? Time to ground the entire GA fleet and issue a few
thousand AD's I suppose, eh? Every quickbuild airframe kit from Van's is
completely wash primered inside. Time to call Van and tell him he's doing
it all wrong?
Go build an RV. Commit years of your life to it like I did then tell me how
to build an airplane. Your technical dissertation is sound, but not
practical for this application.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
356 hrs, not a single electrical issue whatsoever.
Instrumentation and Controls technician w/ pulse power and laser optics
experience.
_________________________________________________________________
Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.
http://wine.msn.com/
Author: "Chris" <toaster73@...> Time: Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:42 pm PST Link
How about just avoiding lightning. and putting on wicks.
-Chris L
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Lamon" <mlamon@g...>
To: <RV10@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [RV10] Re: Protecting your RV 10 against corrosion
> Jack,
> How do you feel about soaking the completed joint down with primer after
> the seam is riveted? The primer would not then act as an insulator and
> should run/coat most of the small moisture entrapment areas.
> (joke)You could use bonding straps from each part to the adjoining part!
:)
>
> (joke) Hey someone should make rivets with small electrical connectors on
> them, then you could bond the primered rivet to the parts you are
riveting,
> and the primered rivet next to it! :)
>
> Mark # 167 Hi Mike!
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV10/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Tony Howard" <ahoward@...> Time: Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:47 am PST Link
Brian:
Without wishing to be arrogant, corrosion doesn't distinguish between Types
of airplanes the are manufactured from similar materials which can be prone
to corrosion. And it probably won't manifest itself to any extensive degree
in the relative youthfulness of the RV fleet. It's just prudent to do what
you can to protect yourself from its possible ravages, especially since you
folks are putting so much time, effort and money into your aircraft.
Tony Howard
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Denk [mailto:akroguy@h...]
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 1:18 PM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [RV10] Re: Protecting your RV 10 against corrosion
> > Dave,
> >
> > This topic has been discussed at great length in the RV forums.
>The
> > airframe even in bare metal, will likely outlive you if it is
>hangared and
> > not subject to exposure to the elements all the time. The
>aluminum coating
> > on the alloy parts are very resistant to corrosion, hence the
>term "alclad"
> > (aluminum clad).
> >
> > For additional protection, you can apply most any brand of primer
>to the
> > mating surfaces only, to protect against water entrapment in the
>various
> > nooks and crannies of the airframe. Even the same kind of
>materials when
> > touched together will have some small amount of galvanic
>(electrical)
> > reaction which can trigger corrosion. I'm applying zinc phosphate
>or
> > chromate to the riveted junctions only, and not coating the entire
>interior
> > of the airframe. I primed everything on my RV8, and really don't
>think it
> > was worth the time and expense.
> >
> > Brian Denk
> > RV8 N94BD
> > RV10 '51
>Brian,
>
>If you want to prime the mating surfaces on your airplane, go ahead,
>but please don't advise others to do this potentially disastrous
>thing. Most primers are insulators, and by priming the mating
>surfaces you interfere with the electrical bond which is necessary
>to avoid many problems with precipitation static, lightning path
>conduction, and many other electromagnetic events. Yes, the rivets
>do provide some bonding, but not enough. The use of a conductive
>corrosion inhibitor, such as alodyne or one of the rare conductive
>primers on these joints is a good idea, but the use of an insulator
>like most primers is bad.
>
>OK, since I havent built an RV (or any other homebuilt) what are my
>qualifications for this advice? I am an Electromagnetic
>Compatability Engineer for a major aircraft manufacturer.
>
>I'm not yet sure just what I will do when I start to build my RV,
>but I will NOT use an insulating primer on the mating surfaces.
Then evidently HUNDREDS (thousands?) of RV's flying worldwide are unsafe
and
subject to instant vaporization if a thunderstorm should roll overhead or
anywhere near the flight path of the aircraft?
We're building simple, affordable aircraft and not spacecraft or passenger
airliners with bazillions of sensitive components and safety systems.
Then
I also surmise that standard airframe maintenance practices of sheet metal
repairs and structural repairs are unairworthy if any form of primer is
used
on any mating surface? Time to ground the entire GA fleet and issue a few
thousand AD's I suppose, eh? Every quickbuild airframe kit from Van's is
completely wash primered inside. Time to call Van and tell him he's doing
it all wrong?
Go build an RV. Commit years of your life to it like I did then tell me
how
to build an airplane. Your technical dissertation is sound, but not
practical for this application.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
356 hrs, not a single electrical issue whatsoever.
Instrumentation and Controls technician w/ pulse power and laser optics
experience.
_________________________________________________________________
Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.
http://wine.msn.com/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV10/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@...> Time: Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:54 am PST Link
>Brian:
>
>Without wishing to be arrogant, corrosion doesn't distinguish between Types
>of airplanes the are manufactured from similar materials which can be prone
>to corrosion. And it probably won't manifest itself to any extensive degree
>in the relative youthfulness of the RV fleet. It's just prudent to do what
>you can to protect yourself from its possible ravages, especially since you
>folks are putting so much time, effort and money into your aircraft.
>
>Tony Howard
Woo hoo! I just love primer wars. I'm a veteran of the Matronics RV-list
primer war. It all boiled down to where you operate your airplane, how much
time/money you wish to spend on priming, and if you plan to resell someday.
Basically, we'll all be dead before any of our airplanes may show signs of
corrosion on the alu components. Steel is another matter entirely. That
stuff rusts if you look at it wrong.
My airplane lives in New Mexico. It's typically so dry here that you can
spit and it evaporates before it hits the nearest Democrat. (!)
I built my RV8 to be a viable product for resale, as I did not know for sure
when I was building it, to what extent my family would grow, if at all. So,
I primed everything, skins, formers, angles, plates, and powdercoated the
engine mount. I think it was a good decision to do so, as it may very well
end up in a more comparatively wet environment when I sell it. The RV10 is
going to be our family transport for very likely twenty years or more, and
we have no intentions of moving out of this dry climate. Therefore, I'm
building to suit my mission, my environment, and my decision to not blow
more paint toxins into the ozone, my shop, or my lungs than absolutely
necessary for primary corrosion protection in the invisible riveted seams.
And yes, I wear a respirator when spraying.
There is a very large fleet of spam cans out there with bare alclad skins in
fine shape. They're often 40 years old too. It all comes down to proper
maintenance and storage. In forty years I'll be worm food and if the wing
falls of the RV10 I built, the owner's estate can contact me at the nearest
Hooters on cloud nine.
Off my soapbox...again.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
Hey tony, got any pics of RV Crossflow installations? I see the other
pics...Comp monster and that plastic pusher thing. Oh and don't get me
started on plastic airplanes...nobody seems concerned about what will
happen to composites in 40 years after lots of sun exposure and RV guys
flcking boogers on them.
_________________________________________________________________
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