Author: "roadsterman63" <hodde@...> Time: Thu Jan 29, 2004 8:06 am PST Link
I just had an interesting converstion with an guy who is an A&P. He
told me he got his A&P (years ago) after something like 2 years
working a flight line pumping fuel and changing oil. He then went
to a quickie course for the test, passed it and is now an A&P.
My question is.... Will my experience building my RV count toward an
A&P?
The experienced RV builders I know have a much better understanding
of all of this stuff than a guy who changes oil for a few years.
I don't want to go into business, but it would be kinda neat to be
able to help out a buddy working on his spam can occasionally.
Doug
Author: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@...> Time: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:15 pm PST Link
Two courses are available to obtain an A & P rating. Course One - attend an
FAA approved 147 Training School (about 24 months everyday M-F) or Course
Two - obtain written legal endorsements from licensed A & P mechanics
vouching for 18 months for a General/Airframe or General/Power plant rating
or a full 30 months of General/Airframe & Power plant practical experience.
There are twenty seven subject areas with only a small section in General
which covers avgas and oil changes. Pumping Avgas and changing oil won't get
you one month of the required experience.
Yes, there are buddy's who will sign letters saying the Gas and Oil
experience equals the hands on Turbine, Power plant, Hydraulics, Sheet
metal, Instrument, Communications, Navigation systems, Composite and
Propeller experience.
Then either course requires passing the three FAA written tests and three
sessions with an FAA Designated Mechanic Examiner to complete what is called
Orals and Practicals. I have thirty years hands on, nearly two years of
Part 147 training and two kit projects. The FAA requires either Course One
or Course Two and absolutely no combination. I finish my last class in two
weeks and start the O & Ps next Tuesday.
And oh yeh, I have a friend who recently got the signoff letter, then found
a DME who for $400 wrote him a paper ticket. That does not make him a
qualified spam-can mechanic. The kit builder can qualify for a Repairman
Certificate for Experimental. I took a two year sabbatical to get the REAL
DEAL. The FAA is trying to find the phony endorsements and the quicky DME.
They require a full evaluation in front of them to reinstate and avoid going
upriver.
John Cox, 23 years as a DPE
-----Original Message-----
From: roadsterman63 [mailto:hodde@o...]
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 7:43 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV10] A&P
I just had an interesting converstion with an guy who is an A&P. He
told me he got his A&P (years ago) after something like 2 years
working a flight line pumping fuel and changing oil. He then went
to a quickie course for the test, passed it and is now an A&P.
My question is.... Will my experience building my RV count toward an
A&P?
The experienced RV builders I know have a much better understanding
of all of this stuff than a guy who changes oil for a few years.
I don't want to go into business, but it would be kinda neat to be
able to help out a buddy working on his spam can occasionally.
Doug
_____
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" <noel@...> Time: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:15 pm PST Link
Building is much different than just being and A&P.
Towards the coarse will be Sheet metal, Composites, paint, wiring, simple
fuel systems. You will have to pick up engines besides installation, lots
of wwwII technology, jets prop blending and balancing and inspection.
I hire A&P's here, and there is always a big learning curve up from just
changing oil and what the schools have thought them. You are on the right
track and will have a big leg up on the rest of your A&P class mates.
Noel Simmons A&P RV-10 91 wings
Blue Sky Aviation, Inc.
Phone & Fax: 406-538-6574
noel@b... <mailto:noel@b...>
www.blueskyaviation.net <http://www.blueskyaviation.net
-----Original Message-----
From: roadsterman63 [mailto:hodde@o...]
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 8:43 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV10] A&P
I just had an interesting converstion with an guy who is an A&P. He
told me he got his A&P (years ago) after something like 2 years
working a flight line pumping fuel and changing oil. He then went
to a quickie course for the test, passed it and is now an A&P.
My question is.... Will my experience building my RV count toward an
A&P?
The experienced RV builders I know have a much better understanding
of all of this stuff than a guy who changes oil for a few years.
I don't want to go into business, but it would be kinda neat to be
able to help out a buddy working on his spam can occasionally.
Doug
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV10/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: jdalton77@... Time: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:15 pm PST Link
Building your RV will indeed make you and "A&P" .... sort of. What you'll get is the "Repairmen's Certificate" but for ONLY THE PLANE YOU BUILT. So, you're authorized to work on your plane, but no other plane.
Author: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@...> Time: Thu Jan 29, 2004 12:17 pm PST Link
>I just had an interesting converstion with an guy who is an A&P. He
>told me he got his A&P (years ago) after something like 2 years
>working a flight line pumping fuel and changing oil. He then went
>to a quickie course for the test, passed it and is now an A&P.
>
>My question is.... Will my experience building my RV count toward an
>A&P?
>
>The experienced RV builders I know have a much better understanding
>of all of this stuff than a guy who changes oil for a few years.
>
>I don't want to go into business, but it would be kinda neat to be
>able to help out a buddy working on his spam can occasionally.
>
>Doug
Building an RV will certainly count towards direct experience with airframe
and powerplant concepts. An A&P/IA buddy of mine has said he would sign me
off as competent to take the test if I want it. I've considered it many
times, but haven't seen any pressing need for it as long as I own an
experimental of my own manufacture. The repairman's certificate allows me
to certify it as long as I wish. Provided I don't make any "major" airframe
or engine changes, I don't ever have to deal with the FAA again with regards
to N94BD.
If you can get on friendly terms with an A&P who will mentor you, and be
willing to verify your learned abilities, then it's a matter of studying up
on the written stuff. I've considered a compressed course of study near the
FAA center in OK to get through the tests. Again, not a priority for me,
but something I'd like to do someday.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
_________________________________________________________________
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Author: Deene Ogden <deene@...> Time: Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:02 pm PST Link
Yep, John is correct. The right "legal" way(s) are as he described. One
interesting detail is that you CANNOT go and take the exams first without
the approved forms (basically the same form, 8610, used to present yourself
to any examiner for any FAA test (written, oral or practical) and signed by
the FAA or other designee). One way to get the sign-offs to take the tests
is to present your experience docs to an FAA inspector at the local FSDO.
This is the course I took.
As John notes, you have to have relevant documented supervised experience.
AND specifically, unsupervised (undocumented) kit building doesn't count.
I had worked on 4 different homebuilt projects and completed 2 (a BD-4 and
a One Design), but that didn't count since I hadn't arranged the A&P
supervision and documentation proving such. I was able to get A&P
signatures on my experience log of all the work I had done under
supervision on several certified aircraft that I had owned over the years.
And when added to the 20+ years of experience as a certificated repairman
on the BD (real applicable time came out about 2 years full time
equivalent), the inspector was satisfied.
Some more interesting points. The sign-offs allow you to take the writtens
and once all three (general, airframe, and powerplant) writtens are passed,
you can present all the forms and passing slips to a DME to take the oral
and practical exam. All of this must be completed with 24 calendar months
after passing the first written test, or you start all over...
Passing the writtens is an interesting subject. The tests are done just as
with the Private, Comm, etc written tests, and consist of a selection of
questions from a very large pool that is public. And, unlike the flying
exams where you can really prepare for the test by studying the reference
material (FARs, handbooks, etc), the A&P questions are derived from a very
large reference set of material which makes it very difficult to remember
enough detail to get a passing score. It seems to me that the only sane
way to pass the writtens is to study the questions and memorize the right
answers. Of course, I have been studying the reference material since you
do need to know the material.
Hopefully, this will workout to get my A&P so that I can do more work on my
Bonanza instead of paying the shop while dreaming of a RV10...
Deene Ogden
"John W. Cox"
<johnwcox@pacific To: "'RV10@yahoogroups.com'" <RV10@yahoogroups.com>
nw.com> cc:
Subject: RE: [RV10] A&P
01/29/2004 10:20
AM
Please respond to
RV10
Two courses are available to obtain an A & P rating. Course One - attend
an
FAA approved 147 Training School (about 24 months everyday M-F) or Course
Two - obtain written legal endorsements from licensed A & P mechanics
vouching for 18 months for a General/Airframe or General/Power plant rating
or a full 30 months of General/Airframe & Power plant practical experience.
There are twenty seven subject areas with only a small section in General
which covers avgas and oil changes. Pumping Avgas and changing oil won't
get
you one month of the required experience.
Yes, there are buddy's who will sign letters saying the Gas and Oil
experience equals the hands on Turbine, Power plant, Hydraulics, Sheet
metal, Instrument, Communications, Navigation systems, Composite and
Propeller experience.
Then either course requires passing the three FAA written tests and three
sessions with an FAA Designated Mechanic Examiner to complete what is
called
Orals and Practicals. I have thirty years hands on, nearly two years of
Part 147 training and two kit projects. The FAA requires either Course One
or Course Two and absolutely no combination. I finish my last class in two
weeks and start the O & Ps next Tuesday.
And oh yeh, I have a friend who recently got the signoff letter, then found
a DME who for $400 wrote him a paper ticket. That does not make him a
qualified spam-can mechanic. The kit builder can qualify for a Repairman
Certificate for Experimental. I took a two year sabbatical to get the REAL
DEAL. The FAA is trying to find the phony endorsements and the quicky DME.
They require a full evaluation in front of them to reinstate and avoid
going
upriver.
John Cox, 23 years as a DPE
-----Original Message-----
From: roadsterman63 [mailto:hodde@o...]
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 7:43 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV10] A&P
I just had an interesting converstion with an guy who is an A&P. He
told me he got his A&P (years ago) after something like 2 years
working a flight line pumping fuel and changing oil. He then went
to a quickie course for the test, passed it and is now an A&P.
My question is.... Will my experience building my RV count toward an
A&P?
The experienced RV builders I know have a much better understanding
of all of this stuff than a guy who changes oil for a few years.
I don't want to go into business, but it would be kinda neat to be
able to help out a buddy working on his spam can occasionally.
Doug
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV10/ <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV10/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Author: Dave Smith <dave@...> Time: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:36 am PST Link
I read somewhere that the time spent building can be applied towards the
practical experience requirement for an A&P, but don't remember the
exact details.
roadsterman63 wrote:
> I just had an interesting converstion with an guy who is an A&P. He
> told me he got his A&P (years ago) after something like 2 years
> working a flight line pumping fuel and changing oil. He then went
> to a quickie course for the test, passed it and is now an A&P.
>
> My question is.... Will my experience building my RV count toward an
> A&P?
>
> The experienced RV builders I know have a much better understanding
> of all of this stuff than a guy who changes oil for a few years.
>
> I don't want to go into business, but it would be kinda neat to be
> able to help out a buddy working on his spam can occasionally.
>
> Doug
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV10/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
--
Dave
http://www.rv10project.net
Author: "Tony Munday" <tonmun@...> Time: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:14 am PST Link
I agree completely with John, Noel, and Deene.
I know several A&P mechanics with what I refer to as "trash
tickets". Cash in the hand of an unscrupulous mechanic examiner and
they walked away with an A&P. These "mechanics" dropped out of a
part 147 school after one or two semesters and had their ticket
within weeks. They didn't even try to hide what they'd done and
rationalized it by suggesting they'd "learn on the job". If such a
mechanic approaches your aircraft you should run for your life,
literally.
I spent nearly 5 years attending a part 147 program (part time) to
acquire my A&P. This significantly delayed the building of my RV-6,
but so much was learned along the way that could be transfered
directly to the construction of my aircraft that it didn't seem like
a penalty. I had accumulated 1200 hours in my construction log and
the only portion of the A&P program I was allowed to test out of was
sheetmetal. I still had to take a written, oral, and practical exams
administered by the sheetmetal course instructor.
Some of the material taught I will never use, but I hope to use most
of it by the time I "cash in my chips". The airline industry has
been squealing for years with regard to the current 147 programs
because the curriculum is primarily based on older aircraft
technology found only in general aviation aircraft today (fabric,
wood, tubing, sheetmetal, and piston engines). I understand the
airlines position and concerns but for me the program was ideal.
Finding a good mechanic is just as important as finding a good
doctor, and a bad one can kill you!
Fly safe and fly often!
Tony Munday
www.SafeAir1.com
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "roadsterman63" <hodde@o...> wrote:
> I just had an interesting converstion with an guy who is an A&P.
He
> told me he got his A&P (years ago) after something like 2 years
> working a flight line pumping fuel and changing oil. He then went
> to a quickie course for the test, passed it and is now an A&P.
>
> My question is.... Will my experience building my RV count toward
an
> A&P?
>
> The experienced RV builders I know have a much better understanding
> of all of this stuff than a guy who changes oil for a few years.
>
> I don't want to go into business, but it would be kinda neat to be
> able to help out a buddy working on his spam can occasionally.
>
> Doug