Author: "vhmum" <VHMUM@...> Time: Sun Aug 1, 2004 3:02 pm PDT Link
Here is the link they also have a partner that have firewall forward.
We are looking in to it as well but will wait for a 10 to fly with
one . Also want to see fuel consumption.
Chris VH-MUM RV6
http://www.innodyn.com/
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Author: "townsetm" <yooper@...> Time: Sun Aug 1, 2004 7:16 pm PDT Link
The more of us RV-10 builders who inquire about the Innodyn turbo
and firewall forward, the more that might sway them to bump the -10
up on their project priority list.
Nothing beats a turbine for reliability . . .
TDT
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "vhmum" <VHMUM@b...> wrote:
> Here is the link they also have a partner that have firewall
forward.
>
> We are looking in to it as well but will wait for a 10 to fly with
> one . Also want to see fuel consumption.
>
> Chris VH-MUM RV6
>
> http://www.innodyn.com/
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Author: "Jason Rader" <jasonrader@...> Time: Sun Aug 1, 2004 8:35 pm PDT Link
Fuel consumption is my big concern as well. I love the idea of the turbine,
but the -10 doesn't carry enough fuel to support an engine that burns more
than 10-12 gph in my opinion.
Jason
>From: "vhmum" <VHMUM@bigpond.com>
>Reply-To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
>To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [RV10] Innodyne
>Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:56:26 -0000
>
>Here is the link they also have a partner that have firewall forward.
>
>We are looking in to it as well but will wait for a 10 to fly with
>one . Also want to see fuel consumption.
>
>Chris VH-MUM RV6
>
>http://www.innodyn.com/
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Author: "davehertner" <effectus@...> Time: Mon Aug 2, 2004 2:28 pm PDT Link
Hi There Fellow Oshkosh Returnees,
First I want to say that it was a pleasure meeting all of the
builders after Van's RV-10 forum. I can't say as I have met a better
bunch of people.
The Innodyne tent was my temporary residence it seemed during
the show. I would hang out there and listen to the sales people
answer all of the questions that many of us are asking.
The turbine burns about 7 gal/hr per 100hp at full power. That
works out to 17.85gph. Now that sounded high to me so I asked
whether or not you could power the turbine back during cruise. They
said that you could. There is provision for running at 80% during
the ground phase which would be 14.3gph. During flight the hot
section is controlled by the computer. It doesn't let the turbine
overspeed or get too hot. This is what limits the maximum horsepower
as it is a function of the temperature in the hot section.
Lets talk about engine weight. Lycoming weighs in at about 410
and the Innodyne at 188. That's a difference of 222lb. The fuel
weight will increase by 60lb because Diesel/JetA weighs 1 lb per gal
more. This will add weight to the fuel tanks at the CG. The Rivers
Aeronautical people said the the RV-6A of theirs lost 35lb overall
and the CG shifted forward 1 in.
Next there is the cowl. That cowl will show a significant
reduction in front plate area. That will mean a reduction in drag
and a resultant reduction in required horsepower to maintain a given
airspeed.
When these two reductions are put together there will be a
significant reduction in the need for cruise power. Where 75% was
need before to achieve 200mph, 60% might be all that is needed after
the weight and drag reductions are accounted for. 60% works out to
be 10.7gph. That number if correct puts the Innodyne in close
company with the piston engines.
I have been on the forum before singing the praises of the
DeltaHawk and I went to Oshkosh specifically to see it and touch it.
Something happened when I walked in to the Innodyne tent about half
way through my stay. I saw the engine flying. I saw the engine in an
RV. It can still burn Diesel which is an important cost saver in my
neck of the woods (100LL=US$3.60/gal).
I hope that this answers some of the questions out there. It
has challenged my powerplant beliefs and has got me thinking more
about that forum I attended that dealt with drag reduction and
weight reduction as the easiest way to increase performance.
I look forward to seeing you all there next year. I was a good
boy this year (I brought some money back home) so I think she's
going to let me come again.
Dave Hertner
Builder #40164
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Author: "mlamon32565" <mlamon@...> Time: Mon Aug 2, 2004 5:37 pm PDT Link
What if any endorsment/rating must one have on their PVT to operate a
turbine -10? Mark #167
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Author: "vhmum" <VHMUM@...> Time: Mon Aug 2, 2004 5:37 pm PDT Link
Good point but what does a i0540 burn?
Chris
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Rader" <jasonrader@h...> wrote:
> Fuel consumption is my big concern as well. I love the idea of
the turbine,
> but the -10 doesn't carry enough fuel to support an engine that
burns more
> than 10-12 gph in my opinion.
>
> Jason
> >From: "vhmum" <VHMUM@b...>
> >Reply-To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
> >To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [RV10] Innodyne
> >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:56:26 -0000
> >
> >Here is the link they also have a partner that have firewall
forward.
> >
> >We are looking in to it as well but will wait for a 10 to fly with
> >one . Also want to see fuel consumption.
> >
> >Chris VH-MUM RV6
> >
> >http://www.innodyn.com/
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Author: "townsetm" <yooper@...> Time: Mon Aug 2, 2004 8:11 pm PDT Link
Thanks for the great info. Now we just need to talk to the Innodyn
and Rivers guys about schedule for RV-10s, or did you happen to
overhear anything like that?
Another big turbine plus is the reliability. My local A&P is a Twin
Otter guy, and he swears by a turbine over a piston any day . . .
TDT
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "davehertner" <effectus@r...> wrote:
> Hi There Fellow Oshkosh Returnees,
>
> First I want to say that it was a pleasure meeting all of the
> builders after Van's RV-10 forum. I can't say as I have met a
better
> bunch of people.
>
> The Innodyne tent was my temporary residence it seemed during
> the show. I would hang out there and listen to the sales people
> answer all of the questions that many of us are asking.
>
> The turbine burns about 7 gal/hr per 100hp at full power.
That
> works out to 17.85gph. Now that sounded high to me so I asked
> whether or not you could power the turbine back during cruise.
They
> said that you could. There is provision for running at 80% during
> the ground phase which would be 14.3gph. During flight the hot
> section is controlled by the computer. It doesn't let the turbine
> overspeed or get too hot. This is what limits the maximum
horsepower
> as it is a function of the temperature in the hot section.
>
> Lets talk about engine weight. Lycoming weighs in at about
410
> and the Innodyne at 188. That's a difference of 222lb. The fuel
> weight will increase by 60lb because Diesel/JetA weighs 1 lb per
gal
> more. This will add weight to the fuel tanks at the CG. The Rivers
> Aeronautical people said the the RV-6A of theirs lost 35lb overall
> and the CG shifted forward 1 in.
>
> Next there is the cowl. That cowl will show a significant
> reduction in front plate area. That will mean a reduction in drag
> and a resultant reduction in required horsepower to maintain a
given
> airspeed.
>
> When these two reductions are put together there will be a
> significant reduction in the need for cruise power. Where 75% was
> need before to achieve 200mph, 60% might be all that is needed
after
> the weight and drag reductions are accounted for. 60% works out to
> be 10.7gph. That number if correct puts the Innodyne in close
> company with the piston engines.
>
> I have been on the forum before singing the praises of the
> DeltaHawk and I went to Oshkosh specifically to see it and touch
it.
> Something happened when I walked in to the Innodyne tent about
half
> way through my stay. I saw the engine flying. I saw the engine in
an
> RV. It can still burn Diesel which is an important cost saver in
my
> neck of the woods (100LL=US$3.60/gal).
>
> I hope that this answers some of the questions out there. It
> has challenged my powerplant beliefs and has got me thinking more
> about that forum I attended that dealt with drag reduction and
> weight reduction as the easiest way to increase performance.
>
> I look forward to seeing you all there next year. I was a
good
> boy this year (I brought some money back home) so I think she's
> going to let me come again.
>
> Dave Hertner
> Builder #40164
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Author: "Chuck Chappell" <chuck456@...> Time: Mon Aug 2, 2004 8:24 pm PDT Link
Talked with the head guy at Rivers about delivery times. He said
that once the testing is complete on their RV6, new and different
models will be very easy since the engineering is mostly the same for
all models, just different motor mounts and cowlings.
Also let me praise the guy from Rivers just a little. The sales
person from Innodyn and I pressed him real hard for an April/May
delivery for a unit for an 8. His statement was "I will not over
promise and under deliver". He would not commit to delivery dates.
He said he doesn't have enough experience yet. Only 10.5 hours on
the RV6 when they took it to the show. I felt like he spoke with
integrity. I had just come frrom a different booth (different
engine) and my experience was just the opposite.
Chuck
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "townsetm" <yooper@a...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the great info. Now we just need to talk to the Innodyn
> and Rivers guys about schedule for RV-10s, or did you happen to
> overhear anything like that?
>
> Another big turbine plus is the reliability. My local A&P is a
Twin
> Otter guy, and he swears by a turbine over a piston any day . . .
>
> TDT
> --- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "davehertner" <effectus@r...> wrote:
> > Hi There Fellow Oshkosh Returnees,
> >
> > First I want to say that it was a pleasure meeting all of
the
> > builders after Van's RV-10 forum. I can't say as I have met a
> better
> > bunch of people.
> >
> > The Innodyne tent was my temporary residence it seemed
during
> > the show. I would hang out there and listen to the sales people
> > answer all of the questions that many of us are asking.
> >
> > The turbine burns about 7 gal/hr per 100hp at full power.
> That
> > works out to 17.85gph. Now that sounded high to me so I asked
> > whether or not you could power the turbine back during cruise.
> They
> > said that you could. There is provision for running at 80% during
> > the ground phase which would be 14.3gph. During flight the hot
> > section is controlled by the computer. It doesn't let the turbine
> > overspeed or get too hot. This is what limits the maximum
> horsepower
> > as it is a function of the temperature in the hot section.
> >
> > Lets talk about engine weight. Lycoming weighs in at about
> 410
> > and the Innodyne at 188. That's a difference of 222lb. The fuel
> > weight will increase by 60lb because Diesel/JetA weighs 1 lb per
> gal
> > more. This will add weight to the fuel tanks at the CG. The
Rivers
> > Aeronautical people said the the RV-6A of theirs lost 35lb
overall
> > and the CG shifted forward 1 in.
> >
> > Next there is the cowl. That cowl will show a significant
> > reduction in front plate area. That will mean a reduction in drag
> > and a resultant reduction in required horsepower to maintain a
> given
> > airspeed.
> >
> > When these two reductions are put together there will be a
> > significant reduction in the need for cruise power. Where 75% was
> > need before to achieve 200mph, 60% might be all that is needed
> after
> > the weight and drag reductions are accounted for. 60% works out
to
> > be 10.7gph. That number if correct puts the Innodyne in close
> > company with the piston engines.
> >
> > I have been on the forum before singing the praises of the
> > DeltaHawk and I went to Oshkosh specifically to see it and touch
> it.
> > Something happened when I walked in to the Innodyne tent about
> half
> > way through my stay. I saw the engine flying. I saw the engine in
> an
> > RV. It can still burn Diesel which is an important cost saver in
> my
> > neck of the woods (100LL=US$3.60/gal).
> >
> > I hope that this answers some of the questions out there. It
> > has challenged my powerplant beliefs and has got me thinking more
> > about that forum I attended that dealt with drag reduction and
> > weight reduction as the easiest way to increase performance.
> >
> > I look forward to seeing you all there next year. I was a
> good
> > boy this year (I brought some money back home) so I think she's
> > going to let me come again.
> >
> > Dave Hertner
> > Builder #40164
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Author: bob@... Time: Sun Aug 8, 2004 7:46 am PDT Link
Dave,
Did you visit the DH booth? I was hoping to meet ya at OSH after all the
communications :-)
Chuck Nearhoof spent some time with us talking engines. I met him several
years ago at SNF. He's done a nice job on his turbines. Fuel burn will be a
tough challenge though, as it is with all turbines. Just the nature of the
beast. Beautiful installation in the RV6.
Bob Shippee
______________________________________
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Author: "Dave Hertner" <effectus@...> Time: Mon Aug 9, 2004 6:51 am PDT Link
Bob,
Sorry that I missed you at Oshkosh. I was there with bells on. I took some serious time to look over the DeltaHawk and I liked what I saw. What I had some trouble with was the horsepower. I know that I have been doing a lot of talking about the engine. The concept and execution of the engine is eloquent and it is poised to fill the need out there for an engine in the under 200hp class with a vengeance. I wasn't totally convinced that it is the replacement for the IO-540 though.
My convictions have been challenged globally except for the fact that I know that the engine going into my airplane will be burning diesel for at least 2/3 of the year. The economics speak loudly. I pay about US$ 3.60 per gal here for 100LL. I can get diesel for US$ 1.74 Irregardless of the engine I choose for my RV-10 I have to burn Diesel in it. The feeling that I got from the guys at the booth was that the DeltaHawk was a JetA engine. Diesel was not discussed for any length of time.
This brings me to today. I spent a great deal of time at the Innodyne booth as well and as you stated Chuck has done an excellent job on the engines. Yes they will burn some more fuel but they aren't going to burn twice the fuel and they willingly say that the engine is designed to burn Diesel. They are also rated to the 255hp that I need for this airplane. With the weight reduction and the reduction in flat plate area on the nose, I think this will be a 230mph airplane. That extra range will offset a good portion of the increased fuel burn.
I am currently building my elevators and I don't anticipate having to make the engine decision for a couple of years yet. The decision I have to make soon is the type of fuel because of the modifications I have to make to the vent system and the fuel filler neck size. I have a couple of Oshkoshs to attend before signing on the dotted line.
----- Original Message -----
From: bob@deltahawkengines.com
To: rv10@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [RV10] Re: Innodyne
Dave,
Did you visit the DH booth? I was hoping to meet ya at OSH after all the
communications :-)
Chuck Nearhoof spent some time with us talking engines. I met him several
years ago at SNF. He's done a nice job on his turbines. Fuel burn will be a
tough challenge though, as it is with all turbines. Just the nature of the
beast. Beautiful installation in the RV6.
Bob Shippee
______________________________________
This E-Mail was sent with MailMax/WEB.
http://www.smartmax.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: linn walters <lwalters2@...> Time: Mon Aug 9, 2004 3:36 pm PDT Link
Dave Hertner wrote:
>Bob,
>
> Sorry that I missed you at Oshkosh. I was there with bells on. I took some serious time to look over the DeltaHawk and I liked what I saw. What I had some trouble with was the horsepower. I know that I have been doing a lot of talking about the engine. The concept and execution of the engine is eloquent and it is poised to fill the need out there for an engine in the under 200hp class with a vengeance. I wasn't totally convinced that it is the replacement for the IO-540 though.
>
Skepticism is a healthy emotion!!! We'll know what the real numbers are
when one flies in a -10.
> My convictions have been challenged globally except for the fact that I know that the engine going into my airplane will be burning diesel for at least 2/3 of the year. The economics speak loudly. I pay about US$ 3.60 per gal here for 100LL. I can get diesel for US$ 1.74 Irregardless of the engine I choose for my RV-10 I have to burn Diesel in it. The feeling that I got from the guys at the booth was that the DeltaHawk was a JetA engine. Diesel was not discussed for any length of time.
>
That's funny. Their website says JetA or #2 Diesel (above 20 degrees F
because of gelling) and touts it as a diesel. I don't know the
comparable BTUs of either so JetA may have a higher BTU rating. I
dunno. The engine may run better on one fuel even if it has a lower BTU
rating. Something to think about.
> This brings me to today. I spent a great deal of time at the Innodyne
> booth as well and as you stated Chuck has done an excellent job on the
> engines. Yes they will burn some more fuel but they aren't going to
> burn twice the fuel and they willingly say that the engine is designed
> to burn Diesel. They are also rated to the 255hp that I need for this
> airplane. With the weight reduction and the reduction in flat plate
> area on the nose, I think this will be a 230mph airplane. That extra
> range will offset a good portion of the increased fuel burn.
This will depend on the BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption or amount
of fuel burned/HP) and is the only way to really compare the efficiency
of dissimilar engines. An O-360 at 75% leaned gets about 0.453
#/HP/Hr. The DeltaHawk (from the website) BSFC = .39 lb/hp/hr. Don't
have info for the innodyne.
> I am currently building my elevators and I don't anticipate having to make the engine decision for a couple of years yet. The decision I have to make soon is the type of fuel because of the modifications I have to make to the vent system
>
What mods?
> and the fuel filler neck size.
>
Why is the filler size a problem?
> I have a couple of Oshkoshs to attend before signing on the dotted line.
>
AMEN! You're ahead of me (don't have a kit yet) so I'm not worried
about a choice of engines. When the time comes, there'll probably be a
few more engine Mfgrs out there so I don't want to do the research all
over again! I also won't buy a engine that's only flying in an airplane
owned by the Mfgr. I'm not that brave, but somebody out there is.
Linn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: bob@deltahawkengines.com
> To: rv10@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 8:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [RV10] Re: Innodyne
> Dave,
> Did you visit the DH booth? I was hoping to meet ya at OSH after all the
> communications :-)
>
> Chuck Nearhoof spent some time with us talking engines. I met him several
> years ago at SNF. He's done a nice job on his turbines. Fuel burn will be a
> tough challenge though, as it is with all turbines. Just the nature of the
> beast. Beautiful installation in the RV6.
>
> Bob Shippee
> ______________________________________
> This E-Mail was sent with MailMax/WEB.
> http://www.smartmax.com
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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