Author: Scott Lewis <rv10@...> Time: Mon Aug 9, 2004 8:21 am PDT Link
Dave Hertner wrote:
> Sorry that I missed you at Oshkosh. I was there with bells on. I took
> some serious time to look over the DeltaHawk and I liked what I saw.
> What I had some trouble with was the horsepower. I know that I have
> been doing a lot of talking about the engine. The concept and
> execution of the engine is eloquent and it is poised to fill the need
> out there for an engine in the under 200hp class with a vengeance. I
> wasn't totally convinced that it is the replacement for the IO-540
> though.
G'day,
I was thinking along the same sort of lines. I personally am waiting to
see the performance of RV-10 number 2 with the 210hp engine up front.
If the take-off performance of the 210hp is respectable then I will look
more seriously at the 200hp Deltahawk. I worked a few rough figures and
reckon that the 260hp IO-540 falls to below 200hp somewhere between
6000-8000 feet (anyone able to narrow it down for me?). This assumes
your IO-540 is actually getting 260hp at ISA MSL.
With ambient conditions here in South Australia often (probably 6 months
of the year at least) giving a density height of 1500-3000ft at sea
level you don't have to fly too high to have the 200hp DH producing more
power than the Lyc (theoretically). And considering I like sitting at
10-12,000ft when going distances, anything turbo-normalized is attractive.
And as for the Innodyn? Am waiting for some firm fuel consuption
figures. As I also like doing 500ft scenics up the coast a turbine
doesn't seem as suitable for me.
Seeya,
Scott Lewis
40172
P.S. I make no guarantees that I actually know what I am talking about
here. Please feel free to steer me in the right direction if I am full
of the proverbial!
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Author: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@...> Time: Mon Aug 9, 2004 9:28 am PDT Link
At least the DeltaHawk has Dyno documentation. What does the Innodyn have
in the way of documentation, HP calculations from thrust. Which one would
you put money on to be more accurate? People want a turbine so bad they are
not looking at it with a critical eye. Just watch the Innodyn RV-4 fly and
you will ask why does it appear so underpowered? I have seen it fly about 4
times in the past 3 years and the performance has never gotten any better.
Do I want a turbine? Yes, but one that shows performance. The Innodyn RV-4
has never shown any performance from the times I have seen it fly. Am I the
only one noticing this? If so I wont make any more comments about it and
get back on my meds.
At 12:08 AM 8/10/2004 +0930, you wrote:
>Dave Hertner wrote:
> > Sorry that I missed you at Oshkosh. I was there with bells on. I took
> > some serious time to look over the DeltaHawk and I liked what I saw.
> > What I had some trouble with was the horsepower. I know that I have
> > been doing a lot of talking about the engine. The concept and
> > execution of the engine is eloquent and it is poised to fill the need
> > out there for an engine in the under 200hp class with a vengeance. I
> > wasn't totally convinced that it is the replacement for the IO-540
> > though.
>
>G'day,
>
>I was thinking along the same sort of lines. I personally am waiting to
>see the performance of RV-10 number 2 with the 210hp engine up front.
>
>If the take-off performance of the 210hp is respectable then I will look
>more seriously at the 200hp Deltahawk. I worked a few rough figures and
>reckon that the 260hp IO-540 falls to below 200hp somewhere between
>6000-8000 feet (anyone able to narrow it down for me?). This assumes
>your IO-540 is actually getting 260hp at ISA MSL.
>
>With ambient conditions here in South Australia often (probably 6 months
>of the year at least) giving a density height of 1500-3000ft at sea
>level you don't have to fly too high to have the 200hp DH producing more
>power than the Lyc (theoretically). And considering I like sitting at
>10-12,000ft when going distances, anything turbo-normalized is attractive.
>
>And as for the Innodyn? Am waiting for some firm fuel consuption
>figures. As I also like doing 500ft scenics up the coast a turbine
>doesn't seem as suitable for me.
>
>Seeya,
>Scott Lewis
>40172
>
>P.S. I make no guarantees that I actually know what I am talking about
>here. Please feel free to steer me in the right direction if I am full
>of the proverbial!
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
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Author: "Dave Hertner" <effectus@...> Time: Mon Aug 9, 2004 3:36 pm PDT Link
Scott,
Thanks for the reply. I too will wait and see with the Innodyn. They said at the show that they just bought a
dyno so that they could further test the turbine. This is going to validate the horsepower numbers and the fuel flow rates. I personally do not place bets when it comes to the power plant. This is why I was at Oshkosh this year, a good 2-3 years ahead of when the power plant is required for my project. This gives me the luxury of sitting on it for a while to see how things unfold. It will also give me the opportunity to see the turbine actually power an RV-10 through the air. There are many out there that have different timelines and different comfort levels when it comes to the non-Lycoming power plants. I hope that the information that I have provided is timely and reasonably accurate and that it spurs the necessary discussion on the topic.
Dave Hertner
RV-10 #40164
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Bilinski
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: [RV10] Re: Innodyne (And Deltahawk)
At least the DeltaHawk has Dyno documentation. What does the Innodyn have
in the way of documentation, HP calculations from thrust. Which one would
you put money on to be more accurate? People want a turbine so bad they are
not looking at it with a critical eye. Just watch the Innodyn RV-4 fly and
you will ask why does it appear so underpowered? I have seen it fly about 4
times in the past 3 years and the performance has never gotten any better.
Do I want a turbine? Yes, but one that shows performance. The Innodyn RV-4
has never shown any performance from the times I have seen it fly. Am I the
only one noticing this? If so I wont make any more comments about it and
get back on my meds.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: bob@... Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:48 am PDT Link
Dave: Sorry I missed you at OSH...I was at the outside booth all week.
I too would be interested in seeing dyno numbers on the Innodyn. The question
is what kind of fuel consumption are they getting AT the rated power levels.
Fuel is a tough nut to crack for engine designers. The dyno isn't always your
friend...ask me how I know!!
Re diesel fuel vs. Jet-A: same BTU content, but there is no free lunch using
diesel over Jet A. The DH will burn diesel all day long. BUT we don't
recommend D2 as normal aviation fuel. Why? One should be VERY careful about
flying with diesel fuel...it can turn to jello at anything below 30*F. Anyone
flying at altitude can easily see OATs dropping below 40F even on the hottest
summer days. Turbines usually don't like to stay close to the ground.
Using D2 in place of JetA is pennywise, pound foolish. Saving a few cents on
fuel may cost bent metal or worse.
Also, FAA won't certify for diesel fuel. Jet-A only.
Re turbine fuel consumption: turbines are at best 1.5x a diesel under ideal
operating conditions. Turbines operate most efficiently at high altitudes and
very narrow power bands. Large turbines are more efficient than small
turbines. In the real world, turbines consume 2x a diesel (ANY diesel) for the
same HP. This is NOT a knock on turbines or Innodyn. Look at any BSFC table
on engines to see the relative efficiency of different engine types. Turbines
are worst (.8- 1.0), followed by rotary (Mazda)(.60-.70), gasoline piston
engines (.45 - .55), diesel pistons (.28 - .42). Huge marine diesels are the
best...somewhere around .28 BSFC. Best turbine BSFC is .63 on the GE90-115 at
optimum conditions....the massive engine on the 777.
The upside to turbines is weight and simplicity...only 1 moving part and no
vibrations(!) to deal with. Downside is reduced range for same fuel load.
Re RV-10: we won't know until we actually fly one, but the 200DH should be a
very viable contender for the RV-10, especially if Van's performance with the
TCM 210 is acceptable. 200DH makes more power at any altitude than the 210TCM
plus it will be at least 50lbs lighter and much less expensive to
purchase/maintain. We're keeping our fingers crossed on Van's results with the
210TCM.
vs. 260 Lyco: Lyco makes 195 @ 8,000' (assuming it made 260 in the first
place). Based on our experience with our 200hp Lyco, the 200DH should be at
parity with the IO-540 somewhere between 4000-5000 feet density altitude.
We're also ~70lbs lighter and $10k less to start with.
We're not yet "there" on the 200hp versions; lots of testing remains on
intercooler configurations. However, we have run an intercooled engine on the
dyno to see what it will do. Let's just say that 200hp will be no problem, but
it needs to be refined and run on the endurance stand to prove it will live to
TBO. Depending on wear characteristics and stress levels, we will then explore
whether we can go higher than 200 in a production engine somewhere down the
road. No promises!!! Anything above 200 could get expensive in a hurry.
Stay tuned.
Bob Shippee
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