Author: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@...> Time: Mon Aug 9, 2004 3:37 pm PDT Link
Engines:
I completely agree with Mr. Bilinski. The turbine RV-4 is a dog in
flight. Takeoff is very unimpressive and from what I have heard, fuel
burn in around 10 - 12 gallons per hour. I did look at all the engine
options at Oshkosh and I am still convinced that if I had to purchase an
engine today, there is no option other than an IO-540. The smaller
Lycomings or Continentals may be an option as well but I need to see
some numbers. If you need further motivation for purchasing a Lycoming
go and talk to the insurance companies. If you consider putting a
turbine in the RV-10 they said to expect double to triple the premium of
a standard aircraft engine. For full coverage, Falcon quoted $2000 -
$2400 a year on the RV-10 for a $130,000 value. Now, the Suburu is an
approved engine with many of insurance companies and the Innodyne may
become approved in the next 3-4 years. But currently all turbine
powered aircraft have incredible premiums for insurance. Just try and
insure a Piper Meridian or TBM700 right now. My friend had to spend
$40,000 in flight training just to be insurable on a Piper Meridian.
Check the current rates on the Lancair Propjet as well. I am not trying
to upset anyone here because I want the turbine engine as bad as
everyone else. They make so much sense. But Innodyne is 4 years away
from having a reliable and solid system for RV-10 in my opinion.
Deltahawk just doesn't have enough engines out there for me to form an
opinion on. I was pretty impressed with the Eggenfellner Suburu
conversion for the RV-7's but they just don't have an option for the 10.
Plus, I plan on flying my RV-10 on a lot of cross-country flights and I
want an engine that can be worked on everywhere. I do plan on working
on my own engine but if you lost a valve on a Lycoming, or lost a valve
on a Deltahawk, I don't know what you would do with the Deltahawk. The
Bombardier engine looks to me as the next engine that will take a large
portion of market share in the 250 - 300 HP market. They appear to have
the right business model and plan. They will go for type certification
first, they want at least 200 airports with trained mechanics on their
engines before launching as well. Once this is complete they will go to
the experimental market. They feel they are at least 3 years away from
offering engines to the experimental guys though. I was disappointed
that Predator Aviation wasn't there. They are currently working on a
LS1 Corvette engine conversion. The LS1 is the only automotive engine
designed to run at 100% power all the time. It is designed to take the
heat that has caused so many failures in other automotive engines. But
there lack of presence at Oshkosh tells me that they are 4-5 years from
being a real option. To me, the insurance company is going to determine
all of our engine options and they want at least a couple of years of
flight it appears before they give it a stamp of approval.
I have been going to Oshkosh now for 9 years and every year there is a
new engine manufacture and rarely is their companies that stay more than
2 years. All the V-8 and V-12 companies that were there three or four
years ago are gone now due to crashes and failures. Now the engines
that are coming out look to be much better. Everyone appears to be
learning the right lessons. I plan on flying one year from now and I
just don't see any other option than the Lycoming.
I have been to many of Van's forums, discussions and have hung around
him at his booth and I bet 80-90% of the questions he gets are about the
use of alternate engines. I can imagine that he is very tired of that
question. Everyone including me wants something different to put in the
RV but there really just isn't an option right now. The diesel engines
look good because of fuel costs but where are you going to get fuel?
JetA is a little cheaper but it isn't available at most small airports.
So why doesn't Van use other engines? RELIABILITY! The last thing
Van's needs is a engine failure in a demonstration aircraft. It would
be highly detrimental to his company. I think that most people are
looking at saving money by using an automotive engine, but I tell anyone
that asks me about it to not count on it. Price your plane out with a
new or rebuilt Lycoming, not some cheaper automotive engine.
Anyway, I sure hope the turbine or some cheaper automotive engine
eventually makes it. Lycoming needs the competition and people need to
be able to afford flying. What scares me more than all this engine talk
is an energy crisis. I work in the oil and gas industry and Simmons and
other analysts are predicting the worlds oil supply to be on a decline
in the next 15-20 years. Then who knows what gas will cost. But you
can't worry about all of that right now because no one really knows for
sure. All we can do is build and fly while we can.
EFIS System Decision:
I spent two full days at Oshkosh just talking to all the EFIS guys and
just thought I would give you my impression of what I learned. Once you
start talking to everyone and listen to their engineers' two things
happen, you start to get very confused, and you decide that no opinon
can be formed until you are ready to purchase your instruments. They
are changing so fast and everyone is promising new features that really
sound great.
First of all, I feel there is not a big enough market to sustain all the
companies that are currently out there. One of the companies is going to
drop out in one to two years and I feel it will be BlueMountain. (let me
explain before you get really mad to those who have already bought
BlueMountain systems) Dynon, BlueMountain, Grand Rapids, Garmin, and
Chelton appear to be the current options out there. Garmin and Chelton
will obviously make it. They have incredible systems. I would buy the
Chelton system if it was $8000 cheaper and the Jeppesen upgrades were
less expensive. Jeppesen really sticks it to those guys. For the
western states, Chelton gets charged $1000 / year where Garmin is around
$300 / year for the same stuff. That leaves Dynon, Grand Rapids and
BlueMountain as the remaining three. I actually put Dynon in a separate
category because they don't offer all the functions that BM and GR
offer. Dynon will make it though. They have sold hundreds of systems
and they have huge financial backing. This winter they will offer a
much larger screen for their system and I expect them to get into the
moving map side of the market as well. Their engine display looks good
but I still feel the new Vision color system is the best option (but
that was a different day of research and discussions).
If I had to make a decision today it was going to be between the Grand
Rapids and BlueMountain. Now, I spent hours at each booth and really
tried to understand their systems, how they talked with a GPS,
autopilot, Comm, ect........
Grand Rapids I feel have really done a great job in the one year they
have been out on the market. Their engineers appeared to be the most
capable out of the two companies. So what are the big positives and
negatives. BM has a nice big screen with terrain. GR will have terrain
this fall. GR has free upgrades to it's moving map whereas BM charges
$350/year. The autopilot functions on the BM are not as user friendly.
The moving map on the GR is much more user-friendly. The GR can zoom
the moving map where the BM cannot but they claim will have the function
this winter. BM has their own auto-pilot where GR works great with the
TruTrak. BM is a new company, GR has been in business for 21 years.
But what really formed my opinion was talking with users. Every BM user
appeared to have many problems with the system while installing it and
still do. As for in-flight failures, both companies claim that their
systems have never failed.
I talked with the engineers at TruTrak as well and asked them about
EFIS's. Obviously, BM is a competitor to them so they might be biased
in their statements, but they felt that GR was much easier to work with
and appeared to offer the best customer service. They were also
convinced that one or more of the current EFIS companies were not going
to make it.
I just don't want to make the mistake of purchasing an EFIS that will
not be supported in 10 years. Therefore, you can minimize the risk by
not spending a lot of money (Dynon, or maybe GR or BM Lite), or by
trying to guess who will make it. And it has been my experience that
the companies that have the money to fail a couple of times and keep
going will make it. Dynon and GR both appear to have the financial
backing. From my experience at the BM booth, they are new company with
8 employees and I was never able to talk to the founder of the company.
They seemed to be the most unstable company of them all.
Well, I didn't mean to type this much, I was going to just say, "Yae,
that RV-4 flies like a dog." , and it turned into this.
I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though. This
is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at Oshkosh.
But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand Rapids.
Scott Schmidt
USSynthetic Product Manager
1260 South 1600 West
Orem UT 84058
Phone: 801-235-9001
Fax: 801-235-9141
Cell: 801-319-3094
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
________________________________
From: Scott Bilinski [mailto:bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com]
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:51 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV10] Re: Innodyne (And Deltahawk)
At least the DeltaHawk has Dyno documentation. What does the Innodyn
have
in the way of documentation, HP calculations from thrust. Which one
would
you put money on to be more accurate? People want a turbine so bad they
are
not looking at it with a critical eye. Just watch the Innodyn RV-4 fly
and
you will ask why does it appear so underpowered? I have seen it fly
about 4
times in the past 3 years and the performance has never gotten any
better.
Do I want a turbine? Yes, but one that shows performance. The Innodyn
RV-4
has never shown any performance from the times I have seen it fly. Am I
the
only one noticing this? If so I wont make any more comments about it and
get back on my meds.
At 12:08 AM 8/10/2004 +0930, you wrote:
>Dave Hertner wrote:
> > Sorry that I missed you at Oshkosh. I was there with bells on. I
took
> > some serious time to look over the DeltaHawk and I liked what I saw.
> > What I had some trouble with was the horsepower. I know that I have
> > been doing a lot of talking about the engine. The concept and
> > execution of the engine is eloquent and it is poised to fill the
need
> > out there for an engine in the under 200hp class with a vengeance. I
> > wasn't totally convinced that it is the replacement for the IO-540
> > though.
>
>G'day,
>
>I was thinking along the same sort of lines. I personally am waiting
to
>see the performance of RV-10 number 2 with the 210hp engine up front.
>
>If the take-off performance of the 210hp is respectable then I will
look
>more seriously at the 200hp Deltahawk. I worked a few rough figures
and
>reckon that the 260hp IO-540 falls to below 200hp somewhere between
>6000-8000 feet (anyone able to narrow it down for me?). This assumes
>your IO-540 is actually getting 260hp at ISA MSL.
>
>With ambient conditions here in South Australia often (probably 6
months
>of the year at least) giving a density height of 1500-3000ft at sea
>level you don't have to fly too high to have the 200hp DH producing
more
>power than the Lyc (theoretically). And considering I like sitting at
>10-12,000ft when going distances, anything turbo-normalized is
attractive.
>
>And as for the Innodyn? Am waiting for some firm fuel consuption
>figures. As I also like doing 500ft scenics up the coast a turbine
>doesn't seem as suitable for me.
>
>Seeya,
>Scott Lewis
>40172
>
>P.S. I make no guarantees that I actually know what I am talking about
>here. Please feel free to steer me in the right direction if I am full
>of the proverbial!
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
>----------
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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cribe@yahoogroups.com
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Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
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Author: Rick Sked <heeder777@...> Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:36 am PDT Link
Good post Scott,
You Utah builders need to hook up with us Nevada builders when all of these are built so we can do some formation photos. How many are being built in Utah? There is you and Mike Howe any others you know of ?
Rick Sked
40185
Las Vegas
Scott Schmidt <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com> wrote:
Engines:
I completely agree with Mr. Bilinski. The turbine RV-4 is a dog in
flight. Takeoff is very unimpressive and from what I have heard, fuel
burn in around 10 - 12 gallons per hour. I did look at all the engine
options at Oshkosh and I am still convinced that if I had to purchase an
engine today, there is no option other than an IO-540. The smaller
Lycomings or Continentals may be an option as well but I need to see
some numbers. If you need further motivation for purchasing a Lycoming
go and talk to the insurance companies. If you consider putting a
turbine in the RV-10 they said to expect double to triple the premium of
a standard aircraft engine. For full coverage, Falcon quoted $2000 -
$2400 a year on the RV-10 for a $130,000 value. Now, the Suburu is an
approved engine with many of insurance companies and the Innodyne may
become approved in the next 3-4 years. But currently all turbine
powered aircraft have incredible premiums for insurance. Just try and
insure a Piper Meridian or TBM700 right now. My friend had to spend
$40,000 in flight training just to be insurable on a Piper Meridian.
Check the current rates on the Lancair Propjet as well. I am not trying
to upset anyone here because I want the turbine engine as bad as
everyone else. They make so much sense. But Innodyne is 4 years away
from having a reliable and solid system for RV-10 in my opinion.
Deltahawk just doesn't have enough engines out there for me to form an
opinion on. I was pretty impressed with the Eggenfellner Suburu
conversion for the RV-7's but they just don't have an option for the 10.
Plus, I plan on flying my RV-10 on a lot of cross-country flights and I
want an engine that can be worked on everywhere. I do plan on working
on my own engine but if you lost a valve on a Lycoming, or lost a valve
on a Deltahawk, I don't know what you would do with the Deltahawk. The
Bombardier engine looks to me as the next engine that will take a large
portion of market share in the 250 - 300 HP market. They appear to have
the right business model and plan. They will go for type certification
first, they want at least 200 airports with trained mechanics on their
engines before launching as well. Once this is complete they will go to
the experimental market. They feel they are at least 3 years away from
offering engines to the experimental guys though. I was disappointed
that Predator Aviation wasn't there. They are currently working on a
LS1 Corvette engine conversion. The LS1 is the only automotive engine
designed to run at 100% power all the time. It is designed to take the
heat that has caused so many failures in other automotive engines. But
there lack of presence at Oshkosh tells me that they are 4-5 years from
being a real option. To me, the insurance company is going to determine
all of our engine options and they want at least a couple of years of
flight it appears before they give it a stamp of approval.
I have been going to Oshkosh now for 9 years and every year there is a
new engine manufacture and rarely is their companies that stay more than
2 years. All the V-8 and V-12 companies that were there three or four
years ago are gone now due to crashes and failures. Now the engines
that are coming out look to be much better. Everyone appears to be
learning the right lessons. I plan on flying one year from now and I
just don't see any other option than the Lycoming.
I have been to many of Van's forums, discussions and have hung around
him at his booth and I bet 80-90% of the questions he gets are about the
use of alternate engines. I can imagine that he is very tired of that
question. Everyone including me wants something different to put in the
RV but there really just isn't an option right now. The diesel engines
look good because of fuel costs but where are you going to get fuel?
JetA is a little cheaper but it isn't available at most small airports.
So why doesn't Van use other engines? RELIABILITY! The last thing
Van's needs is a engine failure in a demonstration aircraft. It would
be highly detrimental to his company. I think that most people are
looking at saving money by using an automotive engine, but I tell anyone
that asks me about it to not count on it. Price your plane out with a
new or rebuilt Lycoming, not some cheaper automotive engine.
Anyway, I sure hope the turbine or some cheaper automotive engine
eventually makes it. Lycoming needs the competition and people need to
be able to afford flying. What scares me more than all this engine talk
is an energy crisis. I work in the oil and gas industry and Simmons and
other analysts are predicting the worlds oil supply to be on a decline
in the next 15-20 years. Then who knows what gas will cost. But you
can't worry about all of that right now because no one really knows for
sure. All we can do is build and fly while we can.
EFIS System Decision:
I spent two full days at Oshkosh just talking to all the EFIS guys and
just thought I would give you my impression of what I learned. Once you
start talking to everyone and listen to their engineers' two things
happen, you start to get very confused, and you decide that no opinon
can be formed until you are ready to purchase your instruments. They
are changing so fast and everyone is promising new features that really
sound great.
First of all, I feel there is not a big enough market to sustain all the
companies that are currently out there. One of the companies is going to
drop out in one to two years and I feel it will be BlueMountain. (let me
explain before you get really mad to those who have already bought
BlueMountain systems) Dynon, BlueMountain, Grand Rapids, Garmin, and
Chelton appear to be the current options out there. Garmin and Chelton
will obviously make it. They have incredible systems. I would buy the
Chelton system if it was $8000 cheaper and the Jeppesen upgrades were
less expensive. Jeppesen really sticks it to those guys. For the
western states, Chelton gets charged $1000 / year where Garmin is around
$300 / year for the same stuff. That leaves Dynon, Grand Rapids and
BlueMountain as the remaining three. I actually put Dynon in a separate
category because they don't offer all the functions that BM and GR
offer. Dynon will make it though. They have sold hundreds of systems
and they have huge financial backing. This winter they will offer a
much larger screen for their system and I expect them to get into the
moving map side of the market as well. Their engine display looks good
but I still feel the new Vision color system is the best option (but
that was a different day of research and discussions).
If I had to make a decision today it was going to be between the Grand
Rapids and BlueMountain. Now, I spent hours at each booth and really
tried to understand their systems, how they talked with a GPS,
autopilot, Comm, ect........
Grand Rapids I feel have really done a great job in the one year they
have been out on the market. Their engineers appeared to be the most
capable out of the two companies. So what are the big positives and
negatives. BM has a nice big screen with terrain. GR will have terrain
this fall. GR has free upgrades to it's moving map whereas BM charges
$350/year. The autopilot functions on the BM are not as user friendly.
The moving map on the GR is much more user-friendly. The GR can zoom
the moving map where the BM cannot but they claim will have the function
this winter. BM has their own auto-pilot where GR works great with the
TruTrak. BM is a new company, GR has been in business for 21 years.
But what really formed my opinion was talking with users. Every BM user
appeared to have many problems with the system while installing it and
still do. As for in-flight failures, both companies claim that their
systems have never failed.
I talked with the engineers at TruTrak as well and asked them about
EFIS's. Obviously, BM is a competitor to them so they might be biased
in their statements, but they felt that GR was much easier to work with
and appeared to offer the best customer service. They were also
convinced that one or more of the current EFIS companies were not going
to make it.
I just don't want to make the mistake of purchasing an EFIS that will
not be supported in 10 years. Therefore, you can minimize the risk by
not spending a lot of money (Dynon, or maybe GR or BM Lite), or by
trying to guess who will make it. And it has been my experience that
the companies that have the money to fail a couple of times and keep
going will make it. Dynon and GR both appear to have the financial
backing. From my experience at the BM booth, they are new company with
8 employees and I was never able to talk to the founder of the company.
They seemed to be the most unstable company of them all.
Well, I didn't mean to type this much, I was going to just say, "Yae,
that RV-4 flies like a dog." , and it turned into this.
I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though. This
is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at Oshkosh.
But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand Rapids.
Scott Schmidt
USSynthetic Product Manager
1260 South 1600 West
Orem UT 84058
Phone: 801-235-9001
Fax: 801-235-9141
Cell: 801-319-3094
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
________________________________
From: Scott Bilinski [mailto:bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com]
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:51 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV10] Re: Innodyne (And Deltahawk)
At least the DeltaHawk has Dyno documentation. What does the Innodyn
have
in the way of documentation, HP calculations from thrust. Which one
would
you put money on to be more accurate? People want a turbine so bad they
are
not looking at it with a critical eye. Just watch the Innodyn RV-4 fly
and
you will ask why does it appear so underpowered? I have seen it fly
about 4
times in the past 3 years and the performance has never gotten any
better.
Do I want a turbine? Yes, but one that shows performance. The Innodyn
RV-4
has never shown any performance from the times I have seen it fly. Am I
the
only one noticing this? If so I wont make any more comments about it and
get back on my meds.
At 12:08 AM 8/10/2004 +0930, you wrote:
>Dave Hertner wrote:
> > Sorry that I missed you at Oshkosh. I was there with bells on. I
took
> > some serious time to look over the DeltaHawk and I liked what I saw.
> > What I had some trouble with was the horsepower. I know that I have
> > been doing a lot of talking about the engine. The concept and
> > execution of the engine is eloquent and it is poised to fill the
need
> > out there for an engine in the under 200hp class with a vengeance. I
> > wasn't totally convinced that it is the replacement for the IO-540
> > though.
>
>G'day,
>
>I was thinking along the same sort of lines. I personally am waiting
to
>see the performance of RV-10 number 2 with the 210hp engine up front.
>
>If the take-off performance of the 210hp is respectable then I will
look
>more seriously at the 200hp Deltahawk. I worked a few rough figures
and
>reckon that the 260hp IO-540 falls to below 200hp somewhere between
>6000-8000 feet (anyone able to narrow it down for me?). This assumes
>your IO-540 is actually getting 260hp at ISA MSL.
>
>With ambient conditions here in South Australia often (probably 6
months
>of the year at least) giving a density height of 1500-3000ft at sea
>level you don't have to fly too high to have the 200hp DH producing
more
>power than the Lyc (theoretically). And considering I like sitting at
>10-12,000ft when going distances, anything turbo-normalized is
attractive.
>
>And as for the Innodyn? Am waiting for some firm fuel consuption
>figures. As I also like doing 500ft scenics up the coast a turbine
>doesn't seem as suitable for me.
>
>Seeya,
>Scott Lewis
>40172
>
>P.S. I make no guarantees that I actually know what I am talking about
>here. Please feel free to steer me in the right direction if I am full
>of the proverbial!
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
>----------
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> *
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV10/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV10/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
>
<mailto:RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>RV10-unsubs
cribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: Tim Olson <tim@...> Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:42 am PDT Link
I know EXACTLY what you mean about the EFIS's. I had been back and
forth at OSH to everyone's booths and found that every other stop
I made gave me conflicting or new information. I had been thinking
CNX-80 with an MX-20 MFD, Blue-Mountain Sport, Garmin SL-30, and
TruTrak DFS-250 Autopilot. Also, WxWork weather. Then, everwhere I
went I ended up riding a rollercoaster.
The CNX-80 pairs nicely with the MX-20, but the Garmin 430's pair
better with the Avidyne EX-500 MFD. They don't do exactly the same
thing, functionality wise. The CNX-80 and Garmin GNS-430/530 I think
talk differently to autopilots. The CNX-80 from what I gather
integrates better into the TruTrak.....i.e. it's the only one that
can fly the slope on a GPS approach (I'm no expert so if I'm wrong, fire
away!). The CNX-80 is the only WAAS approved unit out. Every company
plans to do all sorts of new things "soon" or "in the future", or "by
next year". Can't remeber if it's the EX-500 or the MX-20, but one
of them I think doesn't work with XM radio WX Worx weather, currently.
Then, Dynon has the heated pitot tube, but I don't like their display
for size and coloring nearly as much as the Blue Mountain Sport.
Then, the TruTrak DFS-250 got dumped and is now the Sorcerer Autopilot.
Tons of great functionality, but they want $9900 for the thing. I think
they just priced theirself out of many people's pocketbook in favor of
cheaper or even more limited products.
Blue Mountain LOVES their autopilot and says it's better than the
sorcerer, for lots and lots less money....but I don't know if I trust
that. The recent review in Kitplanes apparently was a pre-production
unit and the bugs are now worked out....but, their autopilot doesn't
integrate that nicely to GPS units. You can't use their Blue Mountain
One or Sport for certified navigation or terminal approach needs.
Then I said, "Well, as long as it can fly the approach I load into
my Garmin 430 or CNX-80, that's OK". But NO, the lady says, "Why would
you want to do that????" Like it's crazy to want your Autopilot to
be able to fly a GPS approach. An airline pilot buddy and I both
said "Why would we NOT want to do that?". That right there threw
the Blue Mountain out for use as an autopilot....fat chance I'd throw
any cash at an autpilot that can't fly an approach loaded on a
certified GPS unit.
The CNX-80 is higher in price than the 430, the 530 seems to get
too much going on, on one unit. Also, I realized that I really
didn't want to combine TOO many features to only a couple units.
If you have something loaded on a moving map page, but then want
to screw with your transponder, or heading, or autopilot, I
don't want to have to lose my map page, Attitude display, DG
display, and everything else. Combine too many things on one, and
you'll do just that. So, then I start throwing in a few more redundant
instruments (nice to have anyway), and start trying to ensure that
things will work together. That gets tricky as well.
When it came to my engine, I went to the show with the thought of
the IO-540, and I left assured that I was choosing an engine that
I'd be happy with. When I went to the show looking at panels,
I left more confused than when I got there.
Tim
Scott Schmidt wrote:
> I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though. This
> is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
> changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at Oshkosh.
> But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand Rapids.
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Author: shiprv8@... Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 1:48 am PDT Link
Scott: could you elaborate on your comments re BMA's financial position
relative to Dynon and GR? I'm curious to know the source of Dynon's funding since
I had the same concern about them.
BMA claims they sold a ton more stuff at OSH and SNF this year compared to
last year. I can't verify their claims, but many builders appear to be
gravitating toward BMA's small unit now that pricing is comparable to Dynon and the
mid-size unit is virtually a Chelton at 1/4th the price. Sounds like they're
also certifying the Lite.
GR units looks nice...functionality appears to be somewhere between Dynon and
BMA.
Thanks
Ship
RV8 under way
saving up for a -10
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Author: "James McClow" <james@...> Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:38 am PDT Link
Hi Tim, Scott.
Have you all checked out the Grand rapids? http://www.grtavionics.com/ I am
learning as I read your post Tim with my finger in my nose trying to
understand but interested in what you have to say. To be honest I don't know
enough about avionics yet to make the right decision. Heck, what is the
right decision. I plan to get instrument rated and want to build an IFR
aircraft so this is important to me too. I am sure by the time I need them I
will but for now I read and read some more. I have been researching the
grand rapids package and their website is very interesting and full of real
world data and works seamlessly with the tru or digi trak auto pilots. It
can be set up with dual screen like the Chelton without the tag but with the
same features and a couple extras says the manufacturer. Just a thought on
your feedback or if you have looked into that model yet. I was hot on the
blue mountain myself and the lady at the booth spent more time shoving the
order form in my face saying onoly 10,000 now and you are in with our
special. I ran! It was like the kid in that movie "I want my 2 dollars". The
grand rapids engine monitor is what egg uses preprogrammed by GR for his
power plant but they offer some pretty nice real world options!
May want to check it out! Use a sport or Dynon for back up or another screen
on the grand rapids. $0,000 complete minus the auto pilot!
Just a thought,
James
191
p.s. here is a blurb of their features:
The EFIS Horizon Series I Primary Flight Display page features:
* Highway In the Sky Guidance - effortless and intuitive
3-dimensional guidance
* Vertical Guidance - Never miss an assigned altitude, or begin a
descent too late.
* User Defined Approach - Vertical and lateral guidance for ILS like
approaches to any airport.
* Digital and graphical display of GPS data
* Unlimited Pitch and Roll - no gimbal limits!
* Slaved Directional Gyro - No manual input required!
* Airspeed, Altitude, and Vertical Speed - No delicate mechanical
movements.
* True Airspeed -
* Density Altitude -
* Outside Air Temperature --
* Wind Speed and Direction - Continuously computed.
* G-meter
* Complete engine monitoring - Graphical displays to enhance pilot
awareness of engine operation.
* Moving Map - with gyro-stabilized for smooth, no jerk screen
updates.
* Altitude Encoder Output
* High speed processor for smooth and seamless (no jerk) display
* User-selectable and programmable screens with split screen or full
screen modes
* Alarms and Redlines user settable
* Instant Start-up - 15 second gyro alignment time
And those are just a few of the features of the primary flight data display.
Other features include:
o Sophisticated AHRS/GPS cross-check
o No Vacuum pump, filter, or maintenance.
o Simple Installation - Much easier than traditional gyro/vacuum systems.
o No mechanical parts to wear out
o Localizer, Glideslope, and Auto Pilot Ready. Integrates seamlessly with
Tru track and digi trak auto pilots
It's hard to overstate the dramatic improvement the highway-in-the-sky
steering provides over traditional instruments. Not only are lateral and
vertical steering errors reduced by 50-80%, but pilot workload is also
reduced, and the ability to capture a desired path it greatly improved
(Barrows, A.K, et. al., 2001).
_____
From: Tim Olson [mailto:tim@MyRV10.com]
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:38 PM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV10] Innodyne and EFIS thoughts
I know EXACTLY what you mean about the EFIS's. I had been back and
forth at OSH to everyone's booths and found that every other stop
I made gave me conflicting or new information. I had been thinking
CNX-80 with an MX-20 MFD, Blue-Mountain Sport, Garmin SL-30, and
TruTrak DFS-250 Autopilot. Also, WxWork weather. Then, everwhere I
went I ended up riding a rollercoaster.
The CNX-80 pairs nicely with the MX-20, but the Garmin 430's pair
better with the Avidyne EX-500 MFD. They don't do exactly the same
thing, functionality wise. The CNX-80 and Garmin GNS-430/530 I think
talk differently to autopilots. The CNX-80 from what I gather
integrates better into the TruTrak.....i.e. it's the only one that
can fly the slope on a GPS approach (I'm no expert so if I'm wrong, fire
away!). The CNX-80 is the only WAAS approved unit out. Every company
plans to do all sorts of new things "soon" or "in the future", or "by
next year". Can't remeber if it's the EX-500 or the MX-20, but one
of them I think doesn't work with XM radio WX Worx weather, currently.
Then, Dynon has the heated pitot tube, but I don't like their display
for size and coloring nearly as much as the Blue Mountain Sport.
Then, the TruTrak DFS-250 got dumped and is now the Sorcerer Autopilot.
Tons of great functionality, but they want $9900 for the thing. I think
they just priced theirself out of many people's pocketbook in favor of
cheaper or even more limited products.
Blue Mountain LOVES their autopilot and says it's better than the
sorcerer, for lots and lots less money....but I don't know if I trust
that. The recent review in Kitplanes apparently was a pre-production
unit and the bugs are now worked out....but, their autopilot doesn't
integrate that nicely to GPS units. You can't use their Blue Mountain
One or Sport for certified navigation or terminal approach needs.
Then I said, "Well, as long as it can fly the approach I load into
my Garmin 430 or CNX-80, that's OK". But NO, the lady says, "Why would
you want to do that????" Like it's crazy to want your Autopilot to
be able to fly a GPS approach. An airline pilot buddy and I both
said "Why would we NOT want to do that?". That right there threw
the Blue Mountain out for use as an autopilot....fat chance I'd throw
any cash at an autpilot that can't fly an approach loaded on a
certified GPS unit.
The CNX-80 is higher in price than the 430, the 530 seems to get
too much going on, on one unit. Also, I realized that I really
didn't want to combine TOO many features to only a couple units.
If you have something loaded on a moving map page, but then want
to screw with your transponder, or heading, or autopilot, I
don't want to have to lose my map page, Attitude display, DG
display, and everything else. Combine too many things on one, and
you'll do just that. So, then I start throwing in a few more redundant
instruments (nice to have anyway), and start trying to ensure that
things will work together. That gets tricky as well.
When it came to my engine, I went to the show with the thought of
the IO-540, and I left assured that I was choosing an engine that
I'd be happy with. When I went to the show looking at panels,
I left more confused than when I got there.
Tim
Scott Schmidt wrote:
> I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though. This
> is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
> changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at Oshkosh.
> But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand Rapids.
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Author: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@...> Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:50 am PDT Link
Right now I am only aware of Mike and I building RV-10's.
My fuselage came on Thursday. There are some picts of the top assembled
to the tailcone.
It is going to be pretty big but will still fit in the garage at an
angle with the engine mounted.
I have another two weeks on the wings then I'll start on the fuselage.
http://scottandranae.smugmug.com/gallery/184281
Scott Schmidt
USSynthetic Product Manager
1260 South 1600 West
Orem UT 84058
Phone: 801-235-9001
Fax: 801-235-9141
Cell: 801-319-3094
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
________________________________
From: Rick Sked [mailto:heeder777@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 5:10 PM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV10] Innodyne and EFIS thoughts
Good post Scott,
You Utah builders need to hook up with us Nevada builders when all of
these are built so we can do some formation photos. How many are being
built in Utah? There is you and Mike Howe any others you know of ?
Rick Sked
40185
Las Vegas
Scott Schmidt <sschmidt@ussynthetic.com> wrote:
Engines:
I completely agree with Mr. Bilinski. The turbine RV-4 is a dog in
flight. Takeoff is very unimpressive and from what I have heard, fuel
burn in around 10 - 12 gallons per hour. I did look at all the engine
options at Oshkosh and I am still convinced that if I had to purchase an
engine today, there is no option other than an IO-540. The smaller
Lycomings or Continentals may be an option as well but I need to see
some numbers. If you need further motivation for purchasing a Lycoming
go and talk to the insurance companies. If you consider putting a
turbine in the RV-10 they said to expect double to triple the premium of
a standard aircraft engine. For full coverage, Falcon quoted $2000 -
$2400 a year on the RV-10 for a $130,000 value. Now, the Suburu is an
approved engine with many of insurance companies and the Innodyne may
become approved in the next 3-4 years. But currently all turbine
powered aircraft have incredible premiums for insurance. Just try and
insure a Piper Meridian or TBM700 right now. My friend had to spend
$40,000 in flight training just to be insurable on a Piper Meridian.
Check the current rates on the Lancair Propjet as well. I am not trying
to upset anyone here because I want the turbine engine as bad as
everyone else. They make so much sense. But Innodyne is 4 years away
from having a reliable and solid system for RV-10 in my opinion.
Deltahawk just doesn't have enough engines out there for me to form an
opinion on. I was pretty impressed with the Eggenfellner Suburu
conversion for the RV-7's but they just don't have an option for the 10.
Plus, I plan on flying my RV-10 on a lot of cross-country flights and I
want an engine that can be worked on everywhere. I do plan on working
on my own engine but if you lost a valve on a Lycoming, or lost a valve
on a Deltahawk, I don't know what you would do with the Deltahawk. The
Bombardier engine looks to me as the next engine that will take a large
portion of market share in the 250 - 300 HP market. They appear to have
the right business model and plan. They will go for type certification
first, they want at least 200 airports with trained mechanics on their
engines before launching as well. Once this is complete they will go to
the experimental market. They feel they are at least 3 years away from
offering engines to the experimental guys though. I was disappointed
that Predator Aviation wasn't there. They are currently working on a
LS1 Corvette engine conversion. The LS1 is the only automotive engine
designed to run at 100% power all the time. It is designed to take the
heat that has caused so many failures in other automotive engines. But
there lack of presence at Oshkosh tells me that they are 4-5 years from
being a real option. To me, the insurance company is going to determine
all of our engine options and they want at least a couple of years of
flight it appears before they give it a stamp of approval.
I have been going to Oshkosh now for 9 years and every year there is a
new engine manufacture and rarely is their companies that stay more than
2 years. All the V-8 and V-12 companies that were there three or four
years ago are gone now due to crashes and failures. Now the engines
that are coming out look to be much better. Everyone appears to be
learning the right lessons. I plan on flying one year from now and I
just don't see any other option than the Lycoming.
I have been to many of Van's forums, discussions and have hung around
him at his booth and I bet 80-90% of the questions he gets are about the
use of alternate engines. I can imagine that he is very tired of that
question. Everyone including me wants something different to put in the
RV but there really just isn't an option right now. The diesel engines
look good because of fuel costs but where are you going to get fuel?
JetA is a little cheaper but it isn't available at most small airports.
So why doesn't Van use other engines? RELIABILITY! The last thing
Van's needs is a engine failure in a demonstration aircraft. It would
be highly detrimental to his company. I think that most people are
looking at saving money by using an automotive engine, but I tell anyone
that asks me about it to not count on it. Price your plane out with a
new or rebuilt Lycoming, not some cheaper automotive engine.
Anyway, I sure hope the turbine or some cheaper automotive engine
eventually makes it. Lycoming needs the competition and people need to
be able to afford flying. What scares me more than all this engine talk
is an energy crisis. I work in the oil and gas industry and Simmons and
other analysts are predicting the worlds oil supply to be on a decline
in the next 15-20 years. Then who knows what gas will cost. But you
can't worry about all of that right now because no one really knows for
sure. All we can do is build and fly while we can.
EFIS System Decision:
I spent two full days at Oshkosh just talking to all the EFIS guys and
just thought I would give you my impression of what I learned. Once you
start talking to everyone and listen to their engineers' two things
happen, you start to get very confused, and you decide that no opinon
can be formed until you are ready to purchase your instruments. They
are changing so fast and everyone is promising new features that really
sound great.
First of all, I feel there is not a big enough market to sustain all the
companies that are currently out there. One of the companies is going to
drop out in one to two years and I feel it will be BlueMountain. (let me
explain before you get really mad to those who have already bought
BlueMountain systems) Dynon, BlueMountain, Grand Rapids, Garmin, and
Chelton appear to be the current options out there. Garmin and Chelton
will obviously make it. They have incredible systems. I would buy the
Chelton system if it was $8000 cheaper and the Jeppesen upgrades were
less expensive. Jeppesen really sticks it to those guys. For the
western states, Chelton gets charged $1000 / year where Garmin is around
$300 / year for the same stuff. That leaves Dynon, Grand Rapids and
BlueMountain as the remaining three. I actually put Dynon in a separate
category because they don't offer all the functions that BM and GR
offer. Dynon will make it though. They have sold hundreds of systems
and they have huge financial backing. This winter they will offer a
much larger screen for their system and I expect them to get into the
moving map side of the market as well. Their engine display looks good
but I still feel the new Vision color system is the best option (but
that was a different day of research and discussions).
If I had to make a decision today it was going to be between the Grand
Rapids and BlueMountain. Now, I spent hours at each booth and really
tried to understand their systems, how they talked with a GPS,
autopilot, Comm, ect........
Grand Rapids I feel have really done a great job in the one year they
have been out on the market. Their engineers appeared to be the most
capable out of the two companies. So what are the big positives and
negatives. BM has a nice big screen with terrain. GR will have terrain
this fall. GR has free upgrades to it's moving map whereas BM charges
$350/year. The autopilot functions on the BM are not as user friendly.
The moving map on the GR is much more user-friendly. The GR can zoom
the moving map where the BM cannot but they claim will have the function
this winter. BM has their own auto-pilot where GR works great with the
TruTrak. BM is a new company, GR has been in business for 21 years.
But what really formed my opinion was talking with users. Every BM user
appeared to have many problems with the system while installing it and
still do. As for in-flight failures, both companies claim that their
systems have never failed.
I talked with the engineers at TruTrak as well and asked them about
EFIS's. Obviously, BM is a competitor to them so they might be biased
in their statements, but they felt that GR was much easier to work with
and appeared to offer the best customer service. They were also
convinced that one or more of the current EFIS companies were not going
to make it.
I just don't want to make the mistake of purchasing an EFIS that will
not be supported in 10 years. Therefore, you can minimize the risk by
not spending a lot of money (Dynon, or maybe GR or BM Lite), or by
trying to guess who will make it. And it has been my experience that
the companies that have the money to fail a couple of times and keep
going will make it. Dynon and GR both appear to have the financial
backing. From my experience at the BM booth, they are new company with
8 employees and I was never able to talk to the founder of the company.
They seemed to be the most unstable company of them all.
Well, I didn't mean to type this much, I was going to just say, "Yae,
that RV-4 flies like a dog." , and it turned into this.
I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though. This
is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at Oshkosh.
But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand Rapids.
Scott Schmidt
USSynthetic Product Manager
1260 South 1600 West
Orem UT 84058
Phone: 801-235-9001
Fax: 801-235-9141
Cell: 801-319-3094
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
________________________________
From: Scott Bilinski [mailto:bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com]
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:51 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV10] Re: Innodyne (And Deltahawk)
At least the DeltaHawk has Dyno documentation. What does the Innodyn
have
in the way of documentation, HP calculations from thrust. Which one
would
you put money on to be more accurate? People want a turbine so bad they
are
not looking at it with a critical eye. Just watch the Innodyn RV-4 fly
and
you will ask why does it appear so underpowered? I have seen it fly
about 4
times in the past 3 years and the performance has never gotten any
better.
Do I want a turbine? Yes, but one that shows performance. The Innodyn
RV-4
has never shown any performance from the times I have seen it fly. Am I
the
only one noticing this? If so I wont make any more comments about it and
get back on my meds.
At 12:08 AM 8/10/2004 +0930, you wrote:
>Dave Hertner wrote:
> > Sorry that I missed you at Oshkosh. I was there with bells on. I
took
> > some serious time to look over the DeltaHawk and I liked what I saw.
> > What I had some trouble with was the horsepower. I know that I have
> > been doing a lot of talking about the engine. The concept and
> > execution of the engine is eloquent and it is poised to fill the
need
> > out there for an engine in the under 200hp class with a vengeance. I
> > wasn't totally convinced that it is the replacement for the IO-540
> > though.
>
>G'day,
>
>I was thinking along the same sort of lines. I personally am waiting
to
>see the performance of RV-10 number 2 with the 210hp engine up front.
>
>If the take-off performance of the 210hp is respectable then I will
look
>more seriously at the 200hp Deltahawk. I worked a few rough figures
and
>reckon that the 260hp IO-540 falls to below 200hp somewhere between
>6000-8000 feet (anyone able to narrow it down for me?). This assumes
>your IO-540 is actually getting 260hp at ISA MSL.
>
>With ambient conditions here in South Australia often (probably 6
months
>of the year at least) giving a density height of 1500-3000ft at sea
>level you don't have to fly too high to have the 200hp DH producing
more
>power than the Lyc (theoretically). And considering I like sitting at
>10-12,000ft when going distances, anything turbo-normalized is
attractive.
>
>And as for the Innodyn? Am waiting for some firm fuel consuption
>figures. As I also like doing 500ft scenics up the coast a turbine
>doesn't seem as suitable for me.
>
>Seeya,
>Scott Lewis
>40172
>
>P.S. I make no guarantees that I actually know what I am talking about
>here. Please feel free to steer me in the right direction if I am full
>of the proverbial!
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
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Author: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@...> Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:50 am PDT Link
The last day at Oshkosh I was talking with the guys at Chelton about
GPS's. He told me that I did not have to have an IFR certified GPS for
GPS instrument approaches. I really challenged him on this but he said
the EAA and FAA had looked this over and the FAR's do not say that the
GPS has to be IFR certified. So Chelton was recommending to me to not
spend the extra money for an IFR certified GPS to link with their system
if that was the direction I wanted to choose.
Now, what do you all think of this? Could he be right? I left there
disagreeing with him.
Scott Schmidt
USSynthetic Product Manager
1260 South 1600 West
Orem UT 84058
Phone: 801-235-9001
Fax: 801-235-9141
Cell: 801-319-3094
sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
________________________________
From: Tim Olson [mailto:tim@MyRV10.com]
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 8:38 PM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV10] Innodyne and EFIS thoughts
I know EXACTLY what you mean about the EFIS's. I had been back and
forth at OSH to everyone's booths and found that every other stop
I made gave me conflicting or new information. I had been thinking
CNX-80 with an MX-20 MFD, Blue-Mountain Sport, Garmin SL-30, and
TruTrak DFS-250 Autopilot. Also, WxWork weather. Then, everwhere I
went I ended up riding a rollercoaster.
The CNX-80 pairs nicely with the MX-20, but the Garmin 430's pair
better with the Avidyne EX-500 MFD. They don't do exactly the same
thing, functionality wise. The CNX-80 and Garmin GNS-430/530 I think
talk differently to autopilots. The CNX-80 from what I gather
integrates better into the TruTrak.....i.e. it's the only one that
can fly the slope on a GPS approach (I'm no expert so if I'm wrong, fire
away!). The CNX-80 is the only WAAS approved unit out. Every company
plans to do all sorts of new things "soon" or "in the future", or "by
next year". Can't remeber if it's the EX-500 or the MX-20, but one
of them I think doesn't work with XM radio WX Worx weather, currently.
Then, Dynon has the heated pitot tube, but I don't like their display
for size and coloring nearly as much as the Blue Mountain Sport.
Then, the TruTrak DFS-250 got dumped and is now the Sorcerer Autopilot.
Tons of great functionality, but they want $9900 for the thing. I think
they just priced theirself out of many people's pocketbook in favor of
cheaper or even more limited products.
Blue Mountain LOVES their autopilot and says it's better than the
sorcerer, for lots and lots less money....but I don't know if I trust
that. The recent review in Kitplanes apparently was a pre-production
unit and the bugs are now worked out....but, their autopilot doesn't
integrate that nicely to GPS units. You can't use their Blue Mountain
One or Sport for certified navigation or terminal approach needs.
Then I said, "Well, as long as it can fly the approach I load into
my Garmin 430 or CNX-80, that's OK". But NO, the lady says, "Why would
you want to do that????" Like it's crazy to want your Autopilot to
be able to fly a GPS approach. An airline pilot buddy and I both
said "Why would we NOT want to do that?". That right there threw
the Blue Mountain out for use as an autopilot....fat chance I'd throw
any cash at an autpilot that can't fly an approach loaded on a
certified GPS unit.
The CNX-80 is higher in price than the 430, the 530 seems to get
too much going on, on one unit. Also, I realized that I really
didn't want to combine TOO many features to only a couple units.
If you have something loaded on a moving map page, but then want
to screw with your transponder, or heading, or autopilot, I
don't want to have to lose my map page, Attitude display, DG
display, and everything else. Combine too many things on one, and
you'll do just that. So, then I start throwing in a few more redundant
instruments (nice to have anyway), and start trying to ensure that
things will work together. That gets tricky as well.
When it came to my engine, I went to the show with the thought of
the IO-540, and I left assured that I was choosing an engine that
I'd be happy with. When I went to the show looking at panels,
I left more confused than when I got there.
Tim
Scott Schmidt wrote:
> I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though.
This
> is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
> changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at Oshkosh.
> But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand Rapids.
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Author: Tim Olson <tim@...> Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:55 pm PDT Link
I'd definitely want to have him show this in writing somewhere.
Your exact position needs to be identified, and what's that called
again....RAIM or something like that, that verfifies the integrity
of the GPS during approaches.....it needs to be active. My thoughts
are that you can't possibly "trust" the GPS unless it meets the
criteria of a certified unit. Although, that said, I think it
wouldn't be the end of the world to trust a handheld even, but
just would have more risk. After my recent trip from Florida to
Wisconsin where my GPS stopped working for 10 minutes (lost all
satellites) and then came back. I think it's best to play it
safe. I was day, VFR, at maybe 6500', with an airport in site
20 miles away, yet I quickly realized how screwed I'd be if I
was IFR. I was off-airway, and would have had to track a VOR
to the airways to continue safely, unless they were willing to
give me Radar vectors and have me plot my positions on a chart.
GPS just makes it so easy....I guess if we're gonna trust it,
it would be worth the cost of a certified unit.
If you hear more on this though, I'd love to follow along.
Tim
Scott Schmidt wrote:
> The last day at Oshkosh I was talking with the guys at Chelton about
> GPS's. He told me that I did not have to have an IFR certified GPS for
> GPS instrument approaches. I really challenged him on this but he said
> the EAA and FAA had looked this over and the FAR's do not say that the
> GPS has to be IFR certified. So Chelton was recommending to me to not
> spend the extra money for an IFR certified GPS to link with their system
> if that was the direction I wanted to choose.
> Now, what do you all think of this? Could he be right? I left there
> disagreeing with him.
>
> Scott Schmidt
> USSynthetic Product Manager
> 1260 South 1600 West
> Orem UT 84058
> Phone: 801-235-9001
> Fax: 801-235-9141
> Cell: 801-319-3094
> sschmidt@ussynthetic.com
> ________________________________
>
> From: Tim Olson [mailto:tim@MyRV10.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 8:38 PM
> To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RV10] Innodyne and EFIS thoughts
>
> I know EXACTLY what you mean about the EFIS's. I had been back and
> forth at OSH to everyone's booths and found that every other stop
> I made gave me conflicting or new information. I had been thinking
> CNX-80 with an MX-20 MFD, Blue-Mountain Sport, Garmin SL-30, and
> TruTrak DFS-250 Autopilot. Also, WxWork weather. Then, everwhere I
> went I ended up riding a rollercoaster.
>
> The CNX-80 pairs nicely with the MX-20, but the Garmin 430's pair
> better with the Avidyne EX-500 MFD. They don't do exactly the same
> thing, functionality wise. The CNX-80 and Garmin GNS-430/530 I think
> talk differently to autopilots. The CNX-80 from what I gather
> integrates better into the TruTrak.....i.e. it's the only one that
> can fly the slope on a GPS approach (I'm no expert so if I'm wrong, fire
> away!). The CNX-80 is the only WAAS approved unit out. Every company
> plans to do all sorts of new things "soon" or "in the future", or "by
> next year". Can't remeber if it's the EX-500 or the MX-20, but one
> of them I think doesn't work with XM radio WX Worx weather, currently.
> Then, Dynon has the heated pitot tube, but I don't like their display
> for size and coloring nearly as much as the Blue Mountain Sport.
>
> Then, the TruTrak DFS-250 got dumped and is now the Sorcerer Autopilot.
> Tons of great functionality, but they want $9900 for the thing. I think
> they just priced theirself out of many people's pocketbook in favor of
> cheaper or even more limited products.
>
> Blue Mountain LOVES their autopilot and says it's better than the
> sorcerer, for lots and lots less money....but I don't know if I trust
> that. The recent review in Kitplanes apparently was a pre-production
> unit and the bugs are now worked out....but, their autopilot doesn't
> integrate that nicely to GPS units. You can't use their Blue Mountain
> One or Sport for certified navigation or terminal approach needs.
> Then I said, "Well, as long as it can fly the approach I load into
> my Garmin 430 or CNX-80, that's OK". But NO, the lady says, "Why would
> you want to do that????" Like it's crazy to want your Autopilot to
> be able to fly a GPS approach. An airline pilot buddy and I both
> said "Why would we NOT want to do that?". That right there threw
> the Blue Mountain out for use as an autopilot....fat chance I'd throw
> any cash at an autpilot that can't fly an approach loaded on a
> certified GPS unit.
>
> The CNX-80 is higher in price than the 430, the 530 seems to get
> too much going on, on one unit. Also, I realized that I really
> didn't want to combine TOO many features to only a couple units.
> If you have something loaded on a moving map page, but then want
> to screw with your transponder, or heading, or autopilot, I
> don't want to have to lose my map page, Attitude display, DG
> display, and everything else. Combine too many things on one, and
> you'll do just that. So, then I start throwing in a few more redundant
> instruments (nice to have anyway), and start trying to ensure that
> things will work together. That gets tricky as well.
>
> When it came to my engine, I went to the show with the thought of
> the IO-540, and I left assured that I was choosing an engine that
> I'd be happy with. When I went to the show looking at panels,
> I left more confused than when I got there.
>
> Tim
>
> Scott Schmidt wrote:
>>I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though.
>
> This
>
>>is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
>>changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at Oshkosh.
>>But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand Rapids.
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Author: "Clay R" <clayr_55@...> Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:57 pm PDT Link
I find it hard to believe that anyone can make an informed EFIS
decision after 2 days at Oshkosh and just listening to what vendors
have said in a show booth!
Let me offer some of my thoughts.
Everyone must realize is that each EFIS targets a different segment
of users, with different features and price points, and all could do
just fine for many years into the future. They might have problems
if they attempt to do exactly the same thing at the same price,
because the market probably isn't big enough to support that.
Plus, any (or all) of the EFIS makers could be dead in the water if
another competitor shows up with a killer system at a killer price,
or if they make a gamble on a new product that doesn't pan out.
Without inside financial information from these private companies,
noone is in a position to even speculate on their financial health.
One that 'appears' to be small and financially weak could actually be
in a MUCH better long-term position than a glitzy company with lots
of debt, many employees, and burning through cash with not enough
sales (or more importantly, profit margin) to support itself.
Financial 'backing' only goes so far if the payoff doesn't
materialize. (remember the dot.coms?)
I hope the Blue Mountain users you spoke to didn't expect their
system to be as easy to install as a Dynon, because it isn't.
Nobody going to drop a full EFIS + engine monitoring system into an
airplane in a day without some issues to work through.
Anyone evaluating an EFIS shoud talk to FLYING customers who have the
system installed in their planes to get solid opinions. (Sorry,
builders who fly an EFIS in their garage don't count) Make sure you
understand their expectations too, because some people expect
Garmin features but only have enough cash for a Dynon.
For all of our benefit, I hope all the EFIS makers do well for many
years to come. The competition and innovation will benefit us and
will make sure that everyone at various price points has good
options to choose from in the future. Predicting that a company is
going to go under, and especially spreading unsubstantiated
negative information about a company doesn't benefit anyone in the
long run.
-Clay
Flying RV9A - BMA EFIS/One (and enjoying every minute of it)
<snip>
> EFIS System Decision:
> I spent two full days at Oshkosh just talking to all the EFIS guys
and
> just thought I would give you my impression of what I learned.
Once you
> start talking to everyone and listen to their engineers' two things
> happen, you start to get very confused, and you decide that no
opinon
> can be formed until you are ready to purchase your instruments.
They
> are changing so fast and everyone is promising new features that
really
> sound great.
> First of all, I feel there is not a big enough market to sustain
all the
> companies that are currently out there. One of the companies is
going to
> drop out in one to two years and I feel it will be BlueMountain.
(let me
> explain before you get really mad to those who have already bought
> BlueMountain systems) Dynon, BlueMountain, Grand Rapids, Garmin,
and
> Chelton appear to be the current options out there. Garmin and
Chelton
> will obviously make it. They have incredible systems. I would buy
the
> Chelton system if it was $8000 cheaper and the Jeppesen upgrades
were
> less expensive. Jeppesen really sticks it to those guys. For the
> western states, Chelton gets charged $1000 / year where Garmin is
around
> $300 / year for the same stuff. That leaves Dynon, Grand Rapids and
> BlueMountain as the remaining three. I actually put Dynon in a
separate
> category because they don't offer all the functions that BM and GR
> offer. Dynon will make it though. They have sold hundreds of
systems
> and they have huge financial backing. This winter they will offer a
> much larger screen for their system and I expect them to get into
the
> moving map side of the market as well. Their engine display looks
good
> but I still feel the new Vision color system is the best option (but
> that was a different day of research and discussions).
> If I had to make a decision today it was going to be between the
Grand
> Rapids and BlueMountain. Now, I spent hours at each booth and
really
> tried to understand their systems, how they talked with a GPS,
> autopilot, Comm, ect........
> Grand Rapids I feel have really done a great job in the one year
they
> have been out on the market. Their engineers appeared to be the
most
> capable out of the two companies. So what are the big positives and
> negatives. BM has a nice big screen with terrain. GR will have
terrain
> this fall. GR has free upgrades to it's moving map whereas BM
charges
> $350/year. The autopilot functions on the BM are not as user
friendly.
> The moving map on the GR is much more user-friendly. The GR can
zoom
> the moving map where the BM cannot but they claim will have the
function
> this winter. BM has their own auto-pilot where GR works great with
the
> TruTrak. BM is a new company, GR has been in business for 21 years.
> But what really formed my opinion was talking with users. Every BM
user
> appeared to have many problems with the system while installing it
and
> still do. As for in-flight failures, both companies claim that their
> systems have never failed.
> I talked with the engineers at TruTrak as well and asked them about
> EFIS's. Obviously, BM is a competitor to them so they might be
biased
> in their statements, but they felt that GR was much easier to work
with
> and appeared to offer the best customer service. They were also
> convinced that one or more of the current EFIS companies were not
going
> to make it.
> I just don't want to make the mistake of purchasing an EFIS that
will
> not be supported in 10 years. Therefore, you can minimize the risk
by
> not spending a lot of money (Dynon, or maybe GR or BM Lite), or by
> trying to guess who will make it. And it has been my experience
that
> the companies that have the money to fail a couple of times and keep
> going will make it. Dynon and GR both appear to have the financial
> backing. From my experience at the BM booth, they are new company
with
> 8 employees and I was never able to talk to the founder of the
company.
> They seemed to be the most unstable company of them all.
>
> Well, I didn't mean to type this much, I was going to just
say, "Yae,
> that RV-4 flies like a dog." , and it turned into this.
> I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though.
This
> is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
> changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at Oshkosh.
> But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand
Rapids.
>
> Scott Schmidt
> USSynthetic Product Manager
> 1260 South 1600 West
> Orem UT 84058
> Phone: 801-235-9001
> Fax: 801-235-9141
> Cell: 801-319-3094
> sschmidt@u...
> ________________________________
>
> From: Scott Bilinski [mailto:bilinski@k...]
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 9:51 AM
> To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RV10] Re: Innodyne (And Deltahawk)
>
> At least the DeltaHawk has Dyno documentation. What does the Innodyn
> have
> in the way of documentation, HP calculations from thrust. Which one
> would
> you put money on to be more accurate? People want a turbine so bad
they
> are
> not looking at it with a critical eye. Just watch the Innodyn RV-4
fly
> and
> you will ask why does it appear so underpowered? I have seen it fly
> about 4
> times in the past 3 years and the performance has never gotten any
> better.
> Do I want a turbine? Yes, but one that shows performance. The
Innodyn
> RV-4
> has never shown any performance from the times I have seen it fly.
Am I
> the
> only one noticing this? If so I wont make any more comments about
it and
>
> get back on my meds.
> At 12:08 AM 8/10/2004 +0930, you wrote:
> >Dave Hertner wrote:
> > > Sorry that I missed you at Oshkosh. I was there with bells on. I
> took
> > > some serious time to look over the DeltaHawk and I liked what I
saw.
> > > What I had some trouble with was the horsepower. I know that I
have
> > > been doing a lot of talking about the engine. The concept and
> > > execution of the engine is eloquent and it is poised to fill the
> need
> > > out there for an engine in the under 200hp class with a
vengeance. I
> > > wasn't totally convinced that it is the replacement for the IO-
540
> > > though.
> >
> >G'day,
> >
> >I was thinking along the same sort of lines. I personally am
waiting
> to
> >see the performance of RV-10 number 2 with the 210hp engine up
front.
> >
> >If the take-off performance of the 210hp is respectable then I will
> look
> >more seriously at the 200hp Deltahawk. I worked a few rough
figures
> and
> >reckon that the 260hp IO-540 falls to below 200hp somewhere between
> >6000-8000 feet (anyone able to narrow it down for me?). This
assumes
> >your IO-540 is actually getting 260hp at ISA MSL.
> >
> >With ambient conditions here in South Australia often (probably 6
> months
> >of the year at least) giving a density height of 1500-3000ft at sea
> >level you don't have to fly too high to have the 200hp DH producing
> more
> >power than the Lyc (theoretically). And considering I like
sitting at
> >10-12,000ft when going distances, anything turbo-normalized is
> attractive.
> >
> >And as for the Innodyn? Am waiting for some firm fuel consuption
> >figures. As I also like doing 500ft scenics up the coast a turbine
> >doesn't seem as suitable for me.
> >
> >Seeya,
> >Scott Lewis
> >40172
> >
> >P.S. I make no guarantees that I actually know what I am talking
about
> >here. Please feel free to steer me in the right direction if I am
full
> >of the proverbial!
> >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> Scott Bilinski
> Eng dept 305
> Phone (858) 657-2536
> Pager (858) 502-5190
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Author: "sfdarton" <sfdarton@...> Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:57 pm PDT Link
With any system that you fly in IMC, you as PIC are required to have
recently verified that systems accuracy. The FAR's give a few
examples ie VOR checks. I personally will not fly an approach to low
minimums untill I have used that system enough to know of it's
accuracy and reliability. Just because a system is "certified"
doesn't mean anything until you know it is going to work properly.
Steve 40212 Sandy, Utah
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@u...> wrote:
> The last day at Oshkosh I was talking with the guys at Chelton about
> GPS's. He told me that I did not have to have an IFR certified GPS
for
> GPS instrument approaches. I really challenged him on this but he
said
> the EAA and FAA had looked this over and the FAR's do not say that
the
> GPS has to be IFR certified. So Chelton was recommending to me to
not
> spend the extra money for an IFR certified GPS to link with their
system
> if that was the direction I wanted to choose.
> Now, what do you all think of this? Could he be right? I left
there
> disagreeing with him.
>
> Scott Schmidt
> USSynthetic Product Manager
> 1260 South 1600 West
> Orem UT 84058
> Phone: 801-235-9001
> Fax: 801-235-9141
> Cell: 801-319-3094
> sschmidt@u...
> ________________________________
>
> From: Tim Olson [mailto:tim@M...]
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 8:38 PM
> To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RV10] Innodyne and EFIS thoughts
>
> I know EXACTLY what you mean about the EFIS's. I had been back and
> forth at OSH to everyone's booths and found that every other stop
> I made gave me conflicting or new information. I had been thinking
> CNX-80 with an MX-20 MFD, Blue-Mountain Sport, Garmin SL-30, and
> TruTrak DFS-250 Autopilot. Also, WxWork weather. Then, everwhere I
> went I ended up riding a rollercoaster.
>
> The CNX-80 pairs nicely with the MX-20, but the Garmin 430's pair
> better with the Avidyne EX-500 MFD. They don't do exactly the same
> thing, functionality wise. The CNX-80 and Garmin GNS-430/530 I
think
> talk differently to autopilots. The CNX-80 from what I gather
> integrates better into the TruTrak.....i.e. it's the only one that
> can fly the slope on a GPS approach (I'm no expert so if I'm wrong,
fire
> away!). The CNX-80 is the only WAAS approved unit out. Every
company
> plans to do all sorts of new things "soon" or "in the future",
or "by
> next year". Can't remeber if it's the EX-500 or the MX-20, but one
> of them I think doesn't work with XM radio WX Worx weather,
currently.
> Then, Dynon has the heated pitot tube, but I don't like their
display
> for size and coloring nearly as much as the Blue Mountain Sport.
>
> Then, the TruTrak DFS-250 got dumped and is now the Sorcerer
Autopilot.
> Tons of great functionality, but they want $9900 for the thing. I
think
> they just priced theirself out of many people's pocketbook in favor
of
> cheaper or even more limited products.
>
> Blue Mountain LOVES their autopilot and says it's better than the
> sorcerer, for lots and lots less money....but I don't know if I
trust
> that. The recent review in Kitplanes apparently was a pre-
production
> unit and the bugs are now worked out....but, their autopilot doesn't
> integrate that nicely to GPS units. You can't use their Blue
Mountain
> One or Sport for certified navigation or terminal approach needs.
> Then I said, "Well, as long as it can fly the approach I load into
> my Garmin 430 or CNX-80, that's OK". But NO, the lady says, "Why
would
> you want to do that????" Like it's crazy to want your Autopilot to
> be able to fly a GPS approach. An airline pilot buddy and I both
> said "Why would we NOT want to do that?". That right there threw
> the Blue Mountain out for use as an autopilot....fat chance I'd
throw
> any cash at an autpilot that can't fly an approach loaded on a
> certified GPS unit.
>
> The CNX-80 is higher in price than the 430, the 530 seems to get
> too much going on, on one unit. Also, I realized that I really
> didn't want to combine TOO many features to only a couple units.
> If you have something loaded on a moving map page, but then want
> to screw with your transponder, or heading, or autopilot, I
> don't want to have to lose my map page, Attitude display, DG
> display, and everything else. Combine too many things on one, and
> you'll do just that. So, then I start throwing in a few more
redundant
> instruments (nice to have anyway), and start trying to ensure that
> things will work together. That gets tricky as well.
>
> When it came to my engine, I went to the show with the thought of
> the IO-540, and I left assured that I was choosing an engine that
> I'd be happy with. When I went to the show looking at panels,
> I left more confused than when I got there.
>
> Tim
>
> Scott Schmidt wrote:
>
> > I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though.
> This
> > is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
> > changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at
Oshkosh.
> > But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand
Rapids.
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Author: "townsetm" <yooper@...> Time: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:00 pm PDT Link
Push comes to shove, a lot of VFR GPS units will probably work MOST
of the time. But do you really want to find out when you're on
approach in the klag and your VFR GPS goes Tango Uniform? I'm
surprised the Chelton guys are suggesting that, especially in these
days with liability questions everywhere.
I'd have at least one IFR certified GPS. You could always get a
cheaper VFR GPS as your backup system.
Another interesting question is, would a non-IFR-certified GPS have
all of the approaches in it's internal database? You certainly want
to be able to call up "GPS RWY 02" with a button press, and not have
to plug in waypoints for the approach. And your database better be
up-to-date, too.
TDT
40025
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@u...> wrote:
> The last day at Oshkosh I was talking with the guys at Chelton about
> GPS's. He told me that I did not have to have an IFR certified GPS
for
> GPS instrument approaches. I really challenged him on this but he
said
> the EAA and FAA had looked this over and the FAR's do not say that
the
> GPS has to be IFR certified. So Chelton was recommending to me to
not
> spend the extra money for an IFR certified GPS to link with their
system
> if that was the direction I wanted to choose.
> Now, what do you all think of this? Could he be right? I left
there
> disagreeing with him.
>
> Scott Schmidt
> USSynthetic Product Manager
> 1260 South 1600 West
> Orem UT 84058
> Phone: 801-235-9001
> Fax: 801-235-9141
> Cell: 801-319-3094
> sschmidt@u...
> ________________________________
>
> From: Tim Olson [mailto:tim@M...]
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 8:38 PM
> To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RV10] Innodyne and EFIS thoughts
>
> I know EXACTLY what you mean about the EFIS's. I had been back and
> forth at OSH to everyone's booths and found that every other stop
> I made gave me conflicting or new information. I had been thinking
> CNX-80 with an MX-20 MFD, Blue-Mountain Sport, Garmin SL-30, and
> TruTrak DFS-250 Autopilot. Also, WxWork weather. Then, everwhere I
> went I ended up riding a rollercoaster.
>
> The CNX-80 pairs nicely with the MX-20, but the Garmin 430's pair
> better with the Avidyne EX-500 MFD. They don't do exactly the same
> thing, functionality wise. The CNX-80 and Garmin GNS-430/530 I
think
> talk differently to autopilots. The CNX-80 from what I gather
> integrates better into the TruTrak.....i.e. it's the only one that
> can fly the slope on a GPS approach (I'm no expert so if I'm wrong,
fire
> away!). The CNX-80 is the only WAAS approved unit out. Every
company
> plans to do all sorts of new things "soon" or "in the future",
or "by
> next year". Can't remeber if it's the EX-500 or the MX-20, but one
> of them I think doesn't work with XM radio WX Worx weather,
currently.
> Then, Dynon has the heated pitot tube, but I don't like their
display
> for size and coloring nearly as much as the Blue Mountain Sport.
>
> Then, the TruTrak DFS-250 got dumped and is now the Sorcerer
Autopilot.
> Tons of great functionality, but they want $9900 for the thing. I
think
> they just priced theirself out of many people's pocketbook in favor
of
> cheaper or even more limited products.
>
> Blue Mountain LOVES their autopilot and says it's better than the
> sorcerer, for lots and lots less money....but I don't know if I
trust
> that. The recent review in Kitplanes apparently was a pre-
production
> unit and the bugs are now worked out....but, their autopilot doesn't
> integrate that nicely to GPS units. You can't use their Blue
Mountain
> One or Sport for certified navigation or terminal approach needs.
> Then I said, "Well, as long as it can fly the approach I load into
> my Garmin 430 or CNX-80, that's OK". But NO, the lady says, "Why
would
> you want to do that????" Like it's crazy to want your Autopilot to
> be able to fly a GPS approach. An airline pilot buddy and I both
> said "Why would we NOT want to do that?". That right there threw
> the Blue Mountain out for use as an autopilot....fat chance I'd
throw
> any cash at an autpilot that can't fly an approach loaded on a
> certified GPS unit.
>
> The CNX-80 is higher in price than the 430, the 530 seems to get
> too much going on, on one unit. Also, I realized that I really
> didn't want to combine TOO many features to only a couple units.
> If you have something loaded on a moving map page, but then want
> to screw with your transponder, or heading, or autopilot, I
> don't want to have to lose my map page, Attitude display, DG
> display, and everything else. Combine too many things on one, and
> you'll do just that. So, then I start throwing in a few more
redundant
> instruments (nice to have anyway), and start trying to ensure that
> things will work together. That gets tricky as well.
>
> When it came to my engine, I went to the show with the thought of
> the IO-540, and I left assured that I was choosing an engine that
> I'd be happy with. When I went to the show looking at panels,
> I left more confused than when I got there.
>
> Tim
>
> Scott Schmidt wrote:
>
> > I would love to hear other peoples opinions on the EFIS's though.
> This
> > is just my opinion and it can change very easily. I know because I
> > changed my mind on which one I would buy every day I was at
Oshkosh.
> > But when I left, I really liked the capabilities of the Grand
Rapids.
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here
>
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1290pblu6/M=298184.5285298.6392945.300117
6/
>
D=groups/S=1705340085:HM/EXP=1092213725/A=2164330/R=0/SIG=11eamf8g4/*h
tt
> p:/www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183350>
>
> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?
M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=group
> s/S=:HM/A=2164330/rand=508157445>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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