Author: "townsetm" <yooper@...> Time: Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:34 am PDT Link
Have any of the turbine or diesel fans out there gotten to the point
of installing increased venting in the fuel tanks yet? Care to share
the approach you used?
A new idea: install additional venting now, but cap it. Use an
AvGas engine for now, but 10 years from now, if want to change to a
Jet-A engine, the vents are there, just uncap 'em.
Thoughts?
TDT
40025
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Author: "PJ" <seipel@...> Time: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:05 pm PDT Link
I'm about to that point. I'll be starting the fuel tanks in a couple
of weeks. I've been searching the internet for ideas, but I'm about
to the point where I'm just going to call DeltaHawk and ask for some
guidance or if they can put me in contact with someone who's done it
on an RV. In theory it seems simple, but having never built an
aircraft before I'm afraid I may be missing something important. If
anyone out there has any suggestions, I'm all ears.
PJ
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "townsetm" <yooper@a...> wrote:
> Have any of the turbine or diesel fans out there gotten to the
point
> of installing increased venting in the fuel tanks yet? Care to
share
> the approach you used?
>
> A new idea: install additional venting now, but cap it. Use an
> AvGas engine for now, but 10 years from now, if want to change to a
> Jet-A engine, the vents are there, just uncap 'em.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> TDT
> 40025
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Author: "Scott Schmidt" <sschmidt@...> Time: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:05 pm PDT Link
Why do you need more venting for turbine or diesel engines?
Scott Schmidt
________________________________
From: townsetm [mailto:yooper@alum.mit.edu]
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 6:23 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV10] Fuel Tank Venting
Have any of the turbine or diesel fans out there gotten to the point
of installing increased venting in the fuel tanks yet? Care to share
the approach you used?
A new idea: install additional venting now, but cap it. Use an
AvGas engine for now, but 10 years from now, if want to change to a
Jet-A engine, the vents are there, just uncap 'em.
Thoughts?
TDT
40025
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Author: "eric_panning" <eric_panning@...> Time: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:05 pm PDT Link
I have started looking at this while I ponder the deltahawk. The
fuel intake is likely sufficient. I would propose two wing mounted
aux fuel pumps with checkvalve bypass for normal operation. (andair
makes nice stuff!)
>From the tanks to a 6 port Andair fuel valve, then to filters, then
to engine driven fuel pump, then one more filter, then injectors.
Coming from injector bypass, perhaps heat exchanger with incoming (to
warm) then back through Andair valve to source fuel tank.
As far as the return fitting, I think it should be something like the
intake fitting, but on the upper portion of the tank.
Looking at the plans, there should be clearance for this.
As for the vent line, I've been sorting out if it is needed or not.
Jet-A has a vapor pressure of 0.125 psi and does not form an
explosive mixture under normal circumstances. I'm still researching
what that would be, but if the temp needed is above 130 degrees then
I will not add it. Not sure if this logic applies to Diesel #1 and
#2...
Downside of flow through venting is water absorbtion and risk of ice
crystals at high alt. One of the reasons for the heat exchanger.
Someone mentioned that upper vent holes in tank ribs might not be big
enough for high flow rates from Jet-A pumps. Not sure if this is
true.
Does anyone with a fuselage kit know where the existing tank vent
lines go to? The wing kit does not show....
I will leave the fuel system unstarted until I decide. If you are
considering only gasoline you might want to make provisions for a
fuel return line.
Cheers,
Eric
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, "townsetm" <yooper@a...> wrote:
> Have any of the turbine or diesel fans out there gotten to the
point
> of installing increased venting in the fuel tanks yet? Care to
share
> the approach you used?
>
> A new idea: install additional venting now, but cap it. Use an
> AvGas engine for now, but 10 years from now, if want to change to a
> Jet-A engine, the vents are there, just uncap 'em.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> TDT
> 40025
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Author: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox@...> Time: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:44 pm PDT Link
Has anyone considered checking with Lancair Int'l on the fill connectors and
vents for their IVP Turbines? I know they are composite wings, not metal
but Vern has been quite helpful with such questions in the past. And of
course, Lancair is making Randy's instrument panel for the avgas RV-10
(#40006).
John Cox
-----Original Message-----
From: PJ [mailto:seipel@seznam.cz]
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 8:50 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV10] Re: Fuel Tank Venting
I'm about to that point. PJ
> Thoughts?
>
> TDT
> 40025
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Author: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@...> Time: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:44 pm PDT Link
I'm getting closer to that point at which time I'll ping Deltahawk on how to
do it. I like your idea of capping if don't use them. The other thing is
that you have to have a bigger filler than the 2 inch one supplied with the
kit.
Bob K
_____
From: townsetm [mailto:yooper@alum.mit.edu]
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 4:23 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV10] Fuel Tank Venting
Have any of the turbine or diesel fans out there gotten to the point
of installing increased venting in the fuel tanks yet? Care to share
the approach you used?
A new idea: install additional venting now, but cap it. Use an
AvGas engine for now, but 10 years from now, if want to change to a
Jet-A engine, the vents are there, just uncap 'em.
Thoughts?
TDT
40025
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Author: "Bob Condrey" <bob.condrey@...> Time: Thu Aug 19, 2004 7:09 pm PDT Link
Another option is to just build it according to plans for standard
avgas. If in the future a diesel piston or turbine engine becomes
viable and available you can sell your completed tanks to another RV-
10 builder - maybe a trade for dollars and his tank parts. That way
you can build them to the spec that the engine manufacturer outlines
when the choice is made. If you decide to just go with an avgas
engine you'll be that much closer.
For those that aren't aware and are considering a Deltahawk, here's a
link to their fuel system recommendations (bottom of page):
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/sugges00.htm
Bob #40105
Fuselage delivery in the morning, engine next week...
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Author: bob@... Time: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:36 am PDT Link
TDT has the right idea.
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Author: bob@... Time: Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:36 am PDT Link
good suggestion re calling Lancair. The DeltaHawk test plane (Velocity) is
composite... the venting recommendations on the website for Jet-A are based on
the installation in the test plane. I'm building an RV8 using the same venting
arrangement.
If you have any questions on vents, call the shop (262-634-9660) and ask for
Doug.
Bob Shippee
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Author: "PJ" <seipel@...> Time: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:45 pm PDT Link
Bob,
Have you done your fuel tanks yet? I understand the concept, but not
how to actually do it.
PJ
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, bob@d... wrote:
> good suggestion re calling Lancair. The DeltaHawk test plane
(Velocity) is
> composite... the venting recommendations on the website for Jet-A
are based on
> the installation in the test plane. I'm building an RV8 using the
same venting
> arrangement.
>
> If you have any questions on vents, call the shop (262-634-9660)
and ask for
> Doug.
>
> Bob Shippee
>
> ______________________________________
> This E-Mail was sent with MailMax/WEB.
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Author: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@...> Time: Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:42 pm PDT Link
Not yet, but getting closer, I'm working on the rear spars.
Bob K
_____
From: PJ [mailto:seipel@seznam.cz]
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 3:03 AM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV10] Re: Fuel Tank Venting
Bob,
Have you done your fuel tanks yet? I understand the concept, but not
how to actually do it.
PJ
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, bob@d... wrote:
> good suggestion re calling Lancair. The DeltaHawk test plane
(Velocity) is
> composite... the venting recommendations on the website for Jet-A
are based on
> the installation in the test plane. I'm building an RV8 using the
same venting
> arrangement.
>
> If you have any questions on vents, call the shop (262-634-9660)
and ask for
> Doug.
>
> Bob Shippee
>
> ______________________________________
> This E-Mail was sent with MailMax/WEB.
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Author: john skorczewski <jskorch1@...> Time: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:19 pm PDT Link
I have a question. I know that Jet-A and turbines are exotic=desirable. I am pretty sure that 100LL is on the way out. My question is this: Do you think that the much higher initial cost of the engine and the decreased range due to higher fuel burn offset the ablity to simply (maybe) switch to autogas. Autogas isn`t going away. This is a Vans RV group right? No matter which way you go, your talking about around 200 mph cruise. Do you really want to go even faster?
bob@deltahawkengines.com wrote:TDT has the right idea.
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Author: "eric_panning" <eric_panning@...> Time: Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:39 am PDT Link
John, Higher fuel burn for turbine engines. Diesels have lower fuel
burn and roughly comparable initial costs.
80 Octane AVGAS is out (check AOPA and www.avweb.com), 100LL is made
by a handful of suppliers a few days a year. Let's hope they
continue until an alternative is available. Most of 100LL market
volume is commuter twins that require high octane. A number of these
are being backfilled with turboprops, making the 100LL market even
smaller.
I think autogas is and will be a viable option for some
applications. There are a number of concerns though, detentation
margin, vapor pressure, additives, fuel system compatibility,
winter/summer mixes, etc. Perhaps some of these concerns are
addressed with MOGAS, I am not sure. I don't think MOGAS would power
a IO-540 though....
A Jet-A diesel cycle engine offers more flexibility over 100LL based
as it can run on winter/summer diesel, kero, heating oil, or bio-
diesel. (Only Jet-A/Diesel authorized) If we run out of all of the
above, it is likely that flying your plane will be the least of our
concerns....
However, if 100LL disappears without a fleet alternative then
everyone is impacted as it will impact airplane and airport
operations/availabilty.
Also in www.avweb.com, the Diesel Diamond twinstar flew non-stop from
Newfoundland to Portugal burning ~ 6 gal/hr total (3 per side!)
cruising at 42% power (135HP) and 152 kts ground speed.
Eric
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, john skorczewski <jskorch1@y...> wrote:
> I have a question. I know that Jet-A and turbines are
exotic=desirable. I am pretty sure that 100LL is on the way out. My
question is this: Do you think that the much higher initial cost of
the engine and the decreased range due to higher fuel burn offset the
ablity to simply (maybe) switch to autogas. Autogas isn`t going away.
This is a Vans RV group right? No matter which way you go, your
talking about around 200 mph cruise. Do you really want to go even
faster?
>
> bob@d... wrote:TDT has the right idea.
>
> ______________________________________
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Author: shiprv8@... Time: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:29 pm PDT Link
the venting discussion for Jet fuel is related to running diesel piston
engines....these engines would actually burn JetA instead of diesel fuel in normal
operation
Mogas limits the max power a non-FADEC 100LL gasoline engine can generate.
IO-540 should be fine burning MOGAS as long as the compression is kept around
8.5:1 or lower.......low compression is the key to running MOGAS with simple
ignitions (mags, lightspeed, etc.) .....detonation is the big problem with lower
octane (100 octane in 100LL vs. 92 octane for mogas).....
FADEC will be a big help in getting max power from mogas.....expensive
solution, though
ship
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