Author: "eric_panning" <eric_panning@...> Time: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:14 pm PDT Link
Predator aviation is proposing to build an RV-10 for you for $157,000
complete. I have attached a link to there excel spreadsheet whuch
may be of interest to all. They have broken down the cost per item,
avionics, etc. Might be useful to compare with your own numbers....
www.predatoraviation.com/documents/RV-10.xls
There is an interesting article about the Predator package in one of
the current kitplanes magazines. They have a 400 HP Corevette LS1
conversion available for the RV7A and are working on one for the RV-
10 (~ 29,000).
Web site is thin on data. Listed power for the LS1 engine conversion
is 375 HP at 4400 rpm. This is not stock. I believe stock is ~ 320
HP for the LS1 and more for the LS6 (405) at 6000 rpm.
Another interesting claim is full power fuel consumption is 12 to 15
gallons per hr. At 15 gal/hr and 375HP, this is a BSFC of 0.24.
There is no way this can be true for a 4 cycle internal combustion
engine.
The article has more details than the website. For example, they are
using the Ivo Magnum prop with electric control and the reduction
ratio is 1.53 to 1. They also mentioned that they can use 87 octane
autogas. LS1 compression ratio stock is over 10 to 1. It is
unlikely you would be able to get away with 87 octane autogas at high
power settings.
I think that they should state the real power levels and provide
details on their flying RV7 platform. If W/B work out then it may be
workable for some. Taken a high HP auto motor and limiting power to
~ 200 to 260 HP might be reasonable. A number of auto conversions
target the max HP of the engine.
My engine opinions:
1. IO-540 best option for max performance
2. Cont. 210 excellent choice for great performance/better value
3. Deltahawk best for economy, range, and performance at alitude.
Only option so far worth time and effort to refine the FWF package.
If ECI comes out with a IO-540 package then this will pull market
share from 2 and 3.
I don't think there is a viable 4 now but perhaps with more time, and
data, the field will get bigger....
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Author: Rick Sked <heeder777@...> Time: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:32 am PDT Link
There goes my home based business!!
Check out the overhead, shop and delivery costs. Labor is not too bad at 36K could live nicely if you could build and sell two a year!!
Nice looking package though, I am still leaning towards the Lycoming. It will be interesting to see what develops with this setup. Great car engine....I am still unsure about conversions, Ignorance is bliss is suppose.
Rick
40185
eric_panning <eric_panning@yahoo.com> wrote:
Predator aviation is proposing to build an RV-10 for you for $157,000
complete. I have attached a link to there excel spreadsheet whuch
may be of interest to all. They have broken down the cost per item,
avionics, etc. Might be useful to compare with your own numbers....
www.predatoraviation.com/documents/RV-10.xls
There is an interesting article about the Predator package in one of
the current kitplanes magazines. They have a 400 HP Corevette LS1
conversion available for the RV7A and are working on one for the RV-
10 (~ 29,000).
Web site is thin on data. Listed power for the LS1 engine conversion
is 375 HP at 4400 rpm. This is not stock. I believe stock is ~ 320
HP for the LS1 and more for the LS6 (405) at 6000 rpm.
Another interesting claim is full power fuel consumption is 12 to 15
gallons per hr. At 15 gal/hr and 375HP, this is a BSFC of 0.24.
There is no way this can be true for a 4 cycle internal combustion
engine.
The article has more details than the website. For example, they are
using the Ivo Magnum prop with electric control and the reduction
ratio is 1.53 to 1. They also mentioned that they can use 87 octane
autogas. LS1 compression ratio stock is over 10 to 1. It is
unlikely you would be able to get away with 87 octane autogas at high
power settings.
I think that they should state the real power levels and provide
details on their flying RV7 platform. If W/B work out then it may be
workable for some. Taken a high HP auto motor and limiting power to
~ 200 to 260 HP might be reasonable. A number of auto conversions
target the max HP of the engine.
My engine opinions:
1. IO-540 best option for max performance
2. Cont. 210 excellent choice for great performance/better value
3. Deltahawk best for economy, range, and performance at alitude.
Only option so far worth time and effort to refine the FWF package.
If ECI comes out with a IO-540 package then this will pull market
share from 2 and 3.
I don't think there is a viable 4 now but perhaps with more time, and
data, the field will get bigger....
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Author: "bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@...> Time: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:07 pm PDT Link
The LS1 engine is a veryl heavy engine, I looked at it 6 months ago because
of the power, but the engine weight was so high that afraid of the weight
and balance aspect. Though I'd possible have the fastest landing speed in
the world, the epitome of a nose roller, and definitely backwards from a
tailwheel first landing. Imagine the pleasure of touching down on the nose
wheel first. YYiiippppeeeeee.
Bob K
_____
From: Rick Sked [mailto:heeder777@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 2:50 PM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV10] RV-10 cost + Predator Aviation
There goes my home based business!!
Check out the overhead, shop and delivery costs. Labor is not too bad at 36K
could live nicely if you could build and sell two a year!!
Nice looking package though, I am still leaning towards the Lycoming. It
will be interesting to see what develops with this setup. Great car
engine....I am still unsure about conversions, Ignorance is bliss is
suppose.
Rick
40185
eric_panning <eric_panning@yahoo.com> wrote:
Predator aviation is proposing to build an RV-10 for you for $157,000
complete. I have attached a link to there excel spreadsheet whuch
may be of interest to all. They have broken down the cost per item,
avionics, etc. Might be useful to compare with your own numbers....
www.predatoraviation.com/documents/RV-10.xls
There is an interesting article about the Predator package in one of
the current kitplanes magazines. They have a 400 HP Corevette LS1
conversion available for the RV7A and are working on one for the RV-
10 (~ 29,000).
Web site is thin on data. Listed power for the LS1 engine conversion
is 375 HP at 4400 rpm. This is not stock. I believe stock is ~ 320
HP for the LS1 and more for the LS6 (405) at 6000 rpm.
Another interesting claim is full power fuel consumption is 12 to 15
gallons per hr. At 15 gal/hr and 375HP, this is a BSFC of 0.24.
There is no way this can be true for a 4 cycle internal combustion
engine.
The article has more details than the website. For example, they are
using the Ivo Magnum prop with electric control and the reduction
ratio is 1.53 to 1. They also mentioned that they can use 87 octane
autogas. LS1 compression ratio stock is over 10 to 1. It is
unlikely you would be able to get away with 87 octane autogas at high
power settings.
I think that they should state the real power levels and provide
details on their flying RV7 platform. If W/B work out then it may be
workable for some. Taken a high HP auto motor and limiting power to
~ 200 to 260 HP might be reasonable. A number of auto conversions
target the max HP of the engine.
My engine opinions:
1. IO-540 best option for max performance
2. Cont. 210 excellent choice for great performance/better value
3. Deltahawk best for economy, range, and performance at alitude.
Only option so far worth time and effort to refine the FWF package.
If ECI comes out with a IO-540 package then this will pull market
share from 2 and 3.
I don't think there is a viable 4 now but perhaps with more time, and
data, the field will get bigger....
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Author: Steven Longdon <chksix71@...> Time: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:43 pm PDT Link
That was the norm for the KC-97 for the old-timers around that remember her. Nose wheel on then lower the mains. Tough stuff...
Steve Longdon
Chief Pilot
Capital Quest, Inc.
Louisville,TN
"bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@cox.net> wrote:
The LS1 engine is a veryl heavy engine, I looked at it 6 months ago because
of the power, but the engine weight was so high that afraid of the weight
and balance aspect. Though I'd possible have the fastest landing speed in
the world, the epitome of a nose roller, and definitely backwards from a
tailwheel first landing. Imagine the pleasure of touching down on the nose
wheel first. YYiiippppeeeeee.
Bob K
_____
From: Rick Sked [mailto:heeder777@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 2:50 PM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV10] RV-10 cost + Predator Aviation
There goes my home based business!!
Check out the overhead, shop and delivery costs. Labor is not too bad at 36K
could live nicely if you could build and sell two a year!!
Nice looking package though, I am still leaning towards the Lycoming. It
will be interesting to see what develops with this setup. Great car
engine....I am still unsure about conversions, Ignorance is bliss is
suppose.
Rick
40185
eric_panning <eric_panning@yahoo.com> wrote:
Predator aviation is proposing to build an RV-10 for you for $157,000
complete. I have attached a link to there excel spreadsheet whuch
may be of interest to all. They have broken down the cost per item,
avionics, etc. Might be useful to compare with your own numbers....
www.predatoraviation.com/documents/RV-10.xls
There is an interesting article about the Predator package in one of
the current kitplanes magazines. They have a 400 HP Corevette LS1
conversion available for the RV7A and are working on one for the RV-
10 (~ 29,000).
Web site is thin on data. Listed power for the LS1 engine conversion
is 375 HP at 4400 rpm. This is not stock. I believe stock is ~ 320
HP for the LS1 and more for the LS6 (405) at 6000 rpm.
Another interesting claim is full power fuel consumption is 12 to 15
gallons per hr. At 15 gal/hr and 375HP, this is a BSFC of 0.24.
There is no way this can be true for a 4 cycle internal combustion
engine.
The article has more details than the website. For example, they are
using the Ivo Magnum prop with electric control and the reduction
ratio is 1.53 to 1. They also mentioned that they can use 87 octane
autogas. LS1 compression ratio stock is over 10 to 1. It is
unlikely you would be able to get away with 87 octane autogas at high
power settings.
I think that they should state the real power levels and provide
details on their flying RV7 platform. If W/B work out then it may be
workable for some. Taken a high HP auto motor and limiting power to
~ 200 to 260 HP might be reasonable. A number of auto conversions
target the max HP of the engine.
My engine opinions:
1. IO-540 best option for max performance
2. Cont. 210 excellent choice for great performance/better value
3. Deltahawk best for economy, range, and performance at alitude.
Only option so far worth time and effort to refine the FWF package.
If ECI comes out with a IO-540 package then this will pull market
share from 2 and 3.
I don't think there is a viable 4 now but perhaps with more time, and
data, the field will get bigger....
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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Author: "flyboyyy" <flyboyyy@...> Time: Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:39 pm PDT Link
One could do quite well building RV's like that....unfortuneately
it's illegal to build Experimental Aircraft as a commercial
venture. I'd love to see what the FAA thinks of a commercial
enterprise offering "turnkey" aircraft, even going to far as to
listing labor costs. You think they would have been smart enough to
at least lable it "builder assisted"........either someone there is
really ignorant, or...they will be offering certified aircraft,
which I bet is highly unlikely.
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6's, Minneapolis
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, Rick Sked <heeder777@y...> wrote:
> There goes my home based business!!
>
> Check out the overhead, shop and delivery costs. Labor is not too
bad at 36K could live nicely if you could build and sell two a year!!
>
> Nice looking package though, I am still leaning towards the
Lycoming. It will be interesting to see what develops with this
setup. Great car engine....I am still unsure about conversions,
Ignorance is bliss is suppose.
>
> Rick
> 40185
>
> eric_panning <eric_panning@y...> wrote:
> Predator aviation is proposing to build an RV-10 for you for
$157,000
> complete. I have attached a link to there excel spreadsheet whuch
> may be of interest to all. They have broken down the cost per
item,
> avionics, etc. Might be useful to compare with your own
numbers....
>
> www.predatoraviation.com/documents/RV-10.xls
>
> There is an interesting article about the Predator package in one
of
> the current kitplanes magazines. They have a 400 HP Corevette
LS1
> conversion available for the RV7A and are working on one for the
RV-
> 10 (~ 29,000).
>
> Web site is thin on data. Listed power for the LS1 engine
conversion
> is 375 HP at 4400 rpm. This is not stock. I believe stock is ~
320
> HP for the LS1 and more for the LS6 (405) at 6000 rpm.
>
> Another interesting claim is full power fuel consumption is 12 to
15
> gallons per hr. At 15 gal/hr and 375HP, this is a BSFC of 0.24.
> There is no way this can be true for a 4 cycle internal combustion
> engine.
>
> The article has more details than the website. For example, they
are
> using the Ivo Magnum prop with electric control and the reduction
> ratio is 1.53 to 1. They also mentioned that they can use 87
octane
> autogas. LS1 compression ratio stock is over 10 to 1. It is
> unlikely you would be able to get away with 87 octane autogas at
high
> power settings.
>
> I think that they should state the real power levels and provide
> details on their flying RV7 platform. If W/B work out then it may
be
> workable for some. Taken a high HP auto motor and limiting power
to
> ~ 200 to 260 HP might be reasonable. A number of auto conversions
> target the max HP of the engine.
>
> My engine opinions:
> 1. IO-540 best option for max performance
> 2. Cont. 210 excellent choice for great performance/better value
> 3. Deltahawk best for economy, range, and performance at alitude.
> Only option so far worth time and effort to refine the FWF package.
>
> If ECI comes out with a IO-540 package then this will pull market
> share from 2 and 3.
>
> I don't think there is a viable 4 now but perhaps with more time,
and
> data, the field will get bigger....
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV10/
>
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> RV10-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
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> Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: "Gregory Young" <gyoung@...> Time: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:35 pm PDT Link
It's actually worse because it's NOT illegal. Unless the vendor is stupid
enough to guarantee an Amateur Built certification, they can't get hurt.
They're not doing anything wrong prior to certification. But the "builder"
is going to have to lie on the affidavit to get it certified as Amateur
Built instead of one of the other, much more restrictive Experimental
categories. After the recent article on the subject in Sport Aviation the
FAA may be much more watchful. Caveat emptor.
Greg
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flyboyyy [mailto:flyboyyy@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:40 PM
> To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [RV10] Re: RV-10 cost + Predator Aviation
>
> One could do quite well building RV's like
> that....unfortunately it's illegal to build Experimental
> Aircraft as a commercial venture. I'd love to see what the
> FAA thinks of a commercial enterprise offering "turnkey"
> aircraft, even going to far as to listing labor costs. You
> think they would have been smart enough to at least label it
> "builder assisted"........either someone there is really
> ignorant, or...they will be offering certified aircraft,
> which I bet is highly unlikely.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein Bruch
> RV6's, Minneapolis
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Author: Rick Sked <heeder777@...> Time: Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:41 am PDT Link
Not for Bob!!!
As long as he confirmed "U" on the GUMP check things were OK....cept one time.....I think he explained it something like this..."I couldn't hear the tower for that darn horn blowing in my ear" ;) I know the -97....only cause I'm a aviation buff, not old enough, must have some good "been there done that stuff" to tell.
Rick
40185
Steven Longdon <chksix71@yahoo.com> wrote:
That was the norm for the KC-97 for the old-timers around that remember her. Nose wheel on then lower the mains. Tough stuff...
Steve Longdon
Chief Pilot
Capital Quest, Inc.
Louisville,TN
"bob.kaufmann" <bob.kaufmann@cox.net> wrote:
The LS1 engine is a veryl heavy engine, I looked at it 6 months ago because
of the power, but the engine weight was so high that afraid of the weight
and balance aspect. Though I'd possible have the fastest landing speed in
the world, the epitome of a nose roller, and definitely backwards from a
tailwheel first landing. Imagine the pleasure of touching down on the nose
wheel first. YYiiippppeeeeee.
Bob K
_____
From: Rick Sked [mailto:heeder777@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 2:50 PM
To: RV10@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV10] RV-10 cost + Predator Aviation
There goes my home based business!!
Check out the overhead, shop and delivery costs. Labor is not too bad at 36K
could live nicely if you could build and sell two a year!!
Nice looking package though, I am still leaning towards the Lycoming. It
will be interesting to see what develops with this setup. Great car
engine....I am still unsure about conversions, Ignorance is bliss is
suppose.
Rick
40185
eric_panning <eric_panning@yahoo.com> wrote:
Predator aviation is proposing to build an RV-10 for you for $157,000
complete. I have attached a link to there excel spreadsheet whuch
may be of interest to all. They have broken down the cost per item,
avionics, etc. Might be useful to compare with your own numbers....
www.predatoraviation.com/documents/RV-10.xls
There is an interesting article about the Predator package in one of
the current kitplanes magazines. They have a 400 HP Corevette LS1
conversion available for the RV7A and are working on one for the RV-
10 (~ 29,000).
Web site is thin on data. Listed power for the LS1 engine conversion
is 375 HP at 4400 rpm. This is not stock. I believe stock is ~ 320
HP for the LS1 and more for the LS6 (405) at 6000 rpm.
Another interesting claim is full power fuel consumption is 12 to 15
gallons per hr. At 15 gal/hr and 375HP, this is a BSFC of 0.24.
There is no way this can be true for a 4 cycle internal combustion
engine.
The article has more details than the website. For example, they are
using the Ivo Magnum prop with electric control and the reduction
ratio is 1.53 to 1. They also mentioned that they can use 87 octane
autogas. LS1 compression ratio stock is over 10 to 1. It is
unlikely you would be able to get away with 87 octane autogas at high
power settings.
I think that they should state the real power levels and provide
details on their flying RV7 platform. If W/B work out then it may be
workable for some. Taken a high HP auto motor and limiting power to
~ 200 to 260 HP might be reasonable. A number of auto conversions
target the max HP of the engine.
My engine opinions:
1. IO-540 best option for max performance
2. Cont. 210 excellent choice for great performance/better value
3. Deltahawk best for economy, range, and performance at alitude.
Only option so far worth time and effort to refine the FWF package.
If ECI comes out with a IO-540 package then this will pull market
share from 2 and 3.
I don't think there is a viable 4 now but perhaps with more time, and
data, the field will get bigger....
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Author: "jskorch1" <jskorch1@...> Time: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:42 pm PDT Link
Just my 2 cents worth,(with change ha)
$157,000 for a turn-key rv-10? Does that sound right to everyone? A
new cessna 172 lists between 158,000 - 181,000 depending on
avionics. A C-182 is 250,000 - 297,500 depending same. Both designed
in 1950`s and both 50-80 knots slower. I know we`re talking factory
builds with certified engines,--- but wow! There was a for-sale sign
for a new rv-7 for $160,000 at my fbo. What does everyone think a
completed rv-10 with a certified engine is worth???
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Author: Tim Olson <tim@...> Time: Mon Aug 30, 2004 7:59 pm PDT Link
I pretty much am of the opinion that if I were to complete my -10 for
$125K, there would be enough interested buyers that would pay me
$150-160K for the finished plane. That would easily pay my creditors
off to prevent a bankrupcy, and still leave me with enough to
re-purchase a Sundowner like I currently own, and keep happily flying
along into the next decade.
BTW: Why, do you think $157K is too high, or too low? You can't
really compare it to a Cessna 175, because it's way more plane than
that. The 182 comparison may be more on-target, but I doubt that
many users will have quite the fit and finish of a brand new factory
plane, with custom plastic trim and leather interior, and with the
extra markup required by the factories, I'd be really surprised if
we really could get full "value" out of the plane.
Tim
jskorch1 wrote:
> Just my 2 cents worth,(with change ha)
>
> $157,000 for a turn-key rv-10? Does that sound right to everyone? A
> new cessna 172 lists between 158,000 - 181,000 depending on
> avionics. A C-182 is 250,000 - 297,500 depending same. Both designed
> in 1950`s and both 50-80 knots slower. I know we`re talking factory
> builds with certified engines,--- but wow! There was a for-sale sign
> for a new rv-7 for $160,000 at my fbo. What does everyone think a
> completed rv-10 with a certified engine is worth???
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Author: "townsetm" <yooper@...> Time: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:38 am PDT Link
I'm always appalled at the factory-built certified airplanes that
look like Russian tractors with big rivet heads sticking out all
over. If you pay $400,000+ for a Piper Saratoga, you'd think you
could at least get nice flush rivets . . . I guess they don't want to
have to re-certify the 40-year old basic airframe structure again.
TDT
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, Tim Olson <tim@M...> wrote:
> I pretty much am of the opinion that if I were to complete my -10
for
> $125K, there would be enough interested buyers that would pay me
> $150-160K for the finished plane. That would easily pay my
creditors
> off to prevent a bankrupcy, and still leave me with enough to
> re-purchase a Sundowner like I currently own, and keep happily
flying
> along into the next decade.
>
> BTW: Why, do you think $157K is too high, or too low? You can't
> really compare it to a Cessna 175, because it's way more plane than
> that. The 182 comparison may be more on-target, but I doubt that
> many users will have quite the fit and finish of a brand new factory
> plane, with custom plastic trim and leather interior, and with the
> extra markup required by the factories, I'd be really surprised if
> we really could get full "value" out of the plane.
>
> Tim
>
> jskorch1 wrote:
>
> > Just my 2 cents worth,(with change ha)
> >
> > $157,000 for a turn-key rv-10? Does that sound right to everyone?
A
> > new cessna 172 lists between 158,000 - 181,000 depending on
> > avionics. A C-182 is 250,000 - 297,500 depending same. Both
designed
> > in 1950`s and both 50-80 knots slower. I know we`re talking
factory
> > builds with certified engines,--- but wow! There was a for-sale
sign
> > for a new rv-7 for $160,000 at my fbo. What does everyone think a
> > completed rv-10 with a certified engine is worth???
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Author: "dejavuan2" <wvu@...> Time: Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:37 pm PDT Link
I bought my -6 five yrs ago and my thought then was: these airplanes
are inexpensive. Considering what you get for labor alone, what does
the math show? say, $20/hr? Is that what your effort is worth?
I am now building a -10 and really knows the effort I've spent so
far. I still feel the same. RV's go so quickly that I think we can
afford to drive the value up some. $180K.
Anh
#40141
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, Tim Olson <tim@M...> wrote:
> I pretty much am of the opinion that if I were to complete my -10
for
> $125K, there would be enough interested buyers that would pay me
> $150-160K for the finished plane. That would easily pay my
creditors
> off to prevent a bankrupcy, and still leave me with enough to
> re-purchase a Sundowner like I currently own, and keep happily
flying
> along into the next decade.
>
> BTW: Why, do you think $157K is too high, or too low? You can't
> really compare it to a Cessna 175, because it's way more plane than
> that. The 182 comparison may be more on-target, but I doubt that
> many users will have quite the fit and finish of a brand new factory
> plane, with custom plastic trim and leather interior, and with the
> extra markup required by the factories, I'd be really surprised if
> we really could get full "value" out of the plane.
>
> Tim
>
> jskorch1 wrote:
>
> > Just my 2 cents worth,(with change ha)
> >
> > $157,000 for a turn-key rv-10? Does that sound right to everyone?
A
> > new cessna 172 lists between 158,000 - 181,000 depending on
> > avionics. A C-182 is 250,000 - 297,500 depending same. Both
designed
> > in 1950`s and both 50-80 knots slower. I know we`re talking
factory
> > builds with certified engines,--- but wow! There was a for-sale
sign
> > for a new rv-7 for $160,000 at my fbo. What does everyone think a
> > completed rv-10 with a certified engine is worth???
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