Author: Hans Conser <hansconser@...> Time: Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:32 am PDT Link
Eric wrote:
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:59:12 -0000
From: "eric_panning" <eric_panning@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Turbine fuel burn
Innodyn has this info on their website:
"Innodyn has been conducting test cell research on the Turbine since
1997. The company has been flying an RV-4 with an Innodyn Turbine
since 2002. In July 2004, along with Rivers Aeronautical, we've begun
flight testing on the RV-6AT. We will have an additional test
aircraft operational in the next several weeks."
My concern is, if they have been flying since 2002 why don't they
have numbers for cruise speed, climb rate and fuel consumption???
They have been flying the RV-6AT since June/July 2004 and I have not
seen any info on this platform either....
Has anyone seen published or unpubublished performance numbers for
either of the flying platforms? Perhaps they are only sending data to
customers?
Eric
This company has serious problems. Snake oil is right. Very shady
business practices. Three name changes so far. Unreturned deposits.
Don't give them your money!
Here are two posts on this subject from another list. Please read them
carefully. I'm bending the rules a little doing this but I think this
is very important.
>>> Scott Baker at Velocity sent this to the Velocity Reflector email
>>> list. Innodyn is the same company as ATP. There were follow ups
>>> from
>>> people who'd placed deposits that said the same thing.
>>>
>>> Caveat Emptor.
>>
>>> To anyone who is remotely interested in purchasing an engine from
>>> ATP -
>>> Affordable Turbine Power - LISTEN UP!
>>> What follows may save you $10,000 (or more)!
>>> ATP is selling "snake oil" as far as my opinion goes.
>>> Several Velocity customers have placed orders and deposits for ATP
>>> engines -
>>> and have been the victims of broken promises and outright fraud.
>>> One Velocity customer placed a $12,000 deposit with ATP towards a
>>> +300hp
>>> version of their experimental turbine - waited to the promised
>>> delivery
>>> date - called for the delivery - and was told by the "good" folks at
>>> ATP
>>> that:
>>> a. They discontinued development of the 300 hp version of the
>>> engine
>>> b. They had no immediate plans to renew development of the 300 hp
>>> engine
>>> c. Despite the written order form that guaranteed all deposits
>>> would be
>>> escrowed - ATP nevertheless spent his deposit, and
>>> d. They have no plans to refund his deposit.
>>> To add insult to injury, this Velocity builder had purchased a
>>> constant
>>> speed propeller that works (for all intent and purposes) on a turbine
>>> engine - so he is also "out" the money he invested in the propeller.
>>> This is not an isolated case. Another Velocity customer that I
>>> spoke with
>>> ALSO lost a substantial amount of money due to the fact that ATP
>>> could not
>>> provide an engine and would not return his deposit.
>>>
>>> In the last edition of AOPA's ePilot, it had an announcement piece
>>> promoting
>>> ATP. I wrote to the editor of ePilot and told him about the fraud
>>> this
>>> company has committed and gave him the names of two Velocity
>>> customers who
>>> were cheated by ATP. The editor followed through - and attempted to
>>> reach
>>> ATP for comment. They (ATP) refuse to talk with him. The customers
>>> did
>>> talk with AOPA and told them what happened.
>>>
>>> One year ago ATP had a booth at Sun n Fun showing their ATP powered
>>> RV.
>>> Between SnF and Oshkosh the aircraft added (what is reported to be)
>>> less
>>> than 10-hours of flight time. Think about that. 10-hours of flight
>>> time in
>>> 4-months. If I were selling a new engine - turbine or otherwise - I
>>> would
>>> hardly boast about 10-hours of operation in 4-months. Something was
>>> (and
>>> is) obviously amiss.
>>>
>>> Incredibly, I am contacted by Velocity customers who have talked
>>> with ATP
>>> ... and ATP believe it or not, is giving Velocity as a reference!
>>> What
>>> balls!
>>>
>>> After SnF 2003, ATP went "underground" at last years Oshkosh and
>>> this years
>>> SnF. They did not have a booth, but they did promote their
>>> "fantastic,
>>> everybody needs to have one turbine engine" at an obscure Cub
>>> display. ATP,
>>> you will find, is not in the show program.
>>>
>>> These people have the lowest business ethics. If you are fool
>>> enough to
>>> give them your money, they are happy to take it.
>>>
>>> And that's all I have to say about that.
>>>
>>> Scott B.
Charlie Smith wrote:
> I visited ATP about two years ago and despite writing them a month in
> advance, they were not at all prepated to receive my visit. I came to
> discuss their data; specifically fuel consumption versus aircraft
> performance. They claimed to have data but that the power plant was
> undergoing "a major redesign that would make existing data useless".
> Chuck
> Nearhoof absolutely refused several direct requests to view his steady
> state
> data collected in his RV testbed. I did accept their offer to tour
> their
> machine shop and test bay. When walking through the shop on the way
> back
> from the test cell I noticed some equipment sitting in a corner under
> some
> plastic. When I asked Chuck what was under the plastic, he replied it
> was a
> dyno.
>
> Next question- Then you have tested this engine on a dyno?
> Reply- No. This dyno is set up for a piston engine. An engine which
> produces power in pulses. We need a dyno that is suitable for an
> electric
> engine. Power that is produced smoothly and continuously. Results
> from
> that dyno would not be valid.
> My conclusion- Get out the hip-waders. They have tested and couldn't
> possibly believe the results.
>
> If it were possible, I would ask for reimbursement from ATP for my gas
> money
> to visit them. A great concept backed by lousy execution and even
> worse
> business practices. I intend to aviod them at all costs.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: David Talley <dtalley1@...> Time: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:06 pm PDT Link
Not true...I asked about company funding, past practices, etc., before and
after signing on the dotted line.
INNODYN HAS NOT DONE ANY OF THE STUFF THAT WAS REPORTED IN HANS' EMAIL.
You can contact Innodyn and they will give you the whole story. Innodyn
has either returned a requested deposit or has kept the deposit as per the
request of the buyer in ALL cases. Ask them.
The items from the other site are basically, well, how does one stay PC,
not the truth. There's the REAL Snake Oil.
Look Innodyn's website or call them about the $100 dollar hat. They are
still keeping their word on it. (I wish my wife had bought one of those
$100 dollar hats, we'd have $14,500 more to put towards our 10 project in
other areas. Dang that hurts!)
One thing to consider, DARPA has just invested some serious money into
their company. Now we all know the government is far from perfect, but if
DARPA is looking at this engine, there must be something good there.
I hate to be the one going to bat for these guys in a forum like this,
however, RUMORS do persist on the internet. :) Some rumors are based on
truths, others are not. I like the truthful ones and I'm sure you do
to. There's nothing right with smashing through life at a couple of
hundred miles an hour, only to find that one made decisions based on
un-truths. Integrity first.
Dave Talley
RV-10T
N2359 (N-2FLY)
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Author: Steven Longdon <chksix71@...> Time: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:43 pm PDT Link
I saw that a/c in Greenville. Bad news was the "local" opinion of the company. Rivers Aero I think was the name.
I saw that someone here had purchased the Delta Hawk. Who was that and what is the delivery date? I'm looking at that engine pretty hard right now and am curious about the groups thoughts on actual production. Is this thing going to happen or just another pipe dream?
Steve Longdon
Chief Pilot
Capital Quest, Inc.
Louisville, TN
Hans Conser <hansconser@earthlink.net> wrote:
Eric wrote:
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:59:12 -0000
From: "eric_panning" <eric_panning@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Turbine fuel burn
Innodyn has this info on their website:
"Innodyn has been conducting test cell research on the Turbine since
1997. The company has been flying an RV-4 with an Innodyn Turbine
since 2002. In July 2004, along with Rivers Aeronautical, we've begun
flight testing on the RV-6AT. We will have an additional test
aircraft operational in the next several weeks."
My concern is, if they have been flying since 2002 why don't they
have numbers for cruise speed, climb rate and fuel consumption???
They have been flying the RV-6AT since June/July 2004 and I have not
seen any info on this platform either....
Has anyone seen published or unpubublished performance numbers for
either of the flying platforms? Perhaps they are only sending data to
customers?
Eric
This company has serious problems. Snake oil is right. Very shady
business practices. Three name changes so far. Unreturned deposits.
Don't give them your money!
Here are two posts on this subject from another list. Please read them
carefully. I'm bending the rules a little doing this but I think this
is very important.
>>> Scott Baker at Velocity sent this to the Velocity Reflector email
>>> list. Innodyn is the same company as ATP. There were follow ups
>>> from
>>> people who'd placed deposits that said the same thing.
>>>
>>> Caveat Emptor.
>>
>>> To anyone who is remotely interested in purchasing an engine from
>>> ATP -
>>> Affordable Turbine Power - LISTEN UP!
>>> What follows may save you $10,000 (or more)!
>>> ATP is selling "snake oil" as far as my opinion goes.
>>> Several Velocity customers have placed orders and deposits for ATP
>>> engines -
>>> and have been the victims of broken promises and outright fraud.
>>> One Velocity customer placed a $12,000 deposit with ATP towards a
>>> +300hp
>>> version of their experimental turbine - waited to the promised
>>> delivery
>>> date - called for the delivery - and was told by the "good" folks at
>>> ATP
>>> that:
>>> a. They discontinued development of the 300 hp version of the
>>> engine
>>> b. They had no immediate plans to renew development of the 300 hp
>>> engine
>>> c. Despite the written order form that guaranteed all deposits
>>> would be
>>> escrowed - ATP nevertheless spent his deposit, and
>>> d. They have no plans to refund his deposit.
>>> To add insult to injury, this Velocity builder had purchased a
>>> constant
>>> speed propeller that works (for all intent and purposes) on a turbine
>>> engine - so he is also "out" the money he invested in the propeller.
>>> This is not an isolated case. Another Velocity customer that I
>>> spoke with
>>> ALSO lost a substantial amount of money due to the fact that ATP
>>> could not
>>> provide an engine and would not return his deposit.
>>>
>>> In the last edition of AOPA's ePilot, it had an announcement piece
>>> promoting
>>> ATP. I wrote to the editor of ePilot and told him about the fraud
>>> this
>>> company has committed and gave him the names of two Velocity
>>> customers who
>>> were cheated by ATP. The editor followed through - and attempted to
>>> reach
>>> ATP for comment. They (ATP) refuse to talk with him. The customers
>>> did
>>> talk with AOPA and told them what happened.
>>>
>>> One year ago ATP had a booth at Sun n Fun showing their ATP powered
>>> RV.
>>> Between SnF and Oshkosh the aircraft added (what is reported to be)
>>> less
>>> than 10-hours of flight time. Think about that. 10-hours of flight
>>> time in
>>> 4-months. If I were selling a new engine - turbine or otherwise - I
>>> would
>>> hardly boast about 10-hours of operation in 4-months. Something was
>>> (and
>>> is) obviously amiss.
>>>
>>> Incredibly, I am contacted by Velocity customers who have talked
>>> with ATP
>>> ... and ATP believe it or not, is giving Velocity as a reference!
>>> What
>>> balls!
>>>
>>> After SnF 2003, ATP went "underground" at last years Oshkosh and
>>> this years
>>> SnF. They did not have a booth, but they did promote their
>>> "fantastic,
>>> everybody needs to have one turbine engine" at an obscure Cub
>>> display. ATP,
>>> you will find, is not in the show program.
>>>
>>> These people have the lowest business ethics. If you are fool
>>> enough to
>>> give them your money, they are happy to take it.
>>>
>>> And that's all I have to say about that.
>>>
>>> Scott B.
Charlie Smith wrote:
> I visited ATP about two years ago and despite writing them a month in
> advance, they were not at all prepated to receive my visit. I came to
> discuss their data; specifically fuel consumption versus aircraft
> performance. They claimed to have data but that the power plant was
> undergoing "a major redesign that would make existing data useless".
> Chuck
> Nearhoof absolutely refused several direct requests to view his steady
> state
> data collected in his RV testbed. I did accept their offer to tour
> their
> machine shop and test bay. When walking through the shop on the way
> back
> from the test cell I noticed some equipment sitting in a corner under
> some
> plastic. When I asked Chuck what was under the plastic, he replied it
> was a
> dyno.
>
> Next question- Then you have tested this engine on a dyno?
> Reply- No. This dyno is set up for a piston engine. An engine which
> produces power in pulses. We need a dyno that is suitable for an
> electric
> engine. Power that is produced smoothly and continuously. Results
> from
> that dyno would not be valid.
> My conclusion- Get out the hip-waders. They have tested and couldn't
> possibly believe the results.
>
> If it were possible, I would ask for reimbursement from ATP for my gas
> money
> to visit them. A great concept backed by lousy execution and even
> worse
> business practices. I intend to aviod them at all costs.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: shiprv8@... Time: Sun Aug 29, 2004 5:18 am PDT Link
where did you get the DARPA info? how much funding did they get? and for
what specific technology?
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Author: "Dave" <skatetrainer@...> Time: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:29 am PDT Link
It is very easy to find out what DARPA is funding, how much they're paying
and when they're epecting results. We just hired one of DARPA's PM's. I'll
check.
--- In RV10@yahoogroups.com, shiprv8@a... wrote:
> where did you get the DARPA info? how much funding did they get? and
for
> what specific technology?
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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