Author: bcollins@... Time: Thu Aug 9, 2001 5:43 pm PDT Link
I'm still early, obviously, in the work on my 7A and I've been
reading
through this things and am progressing slowly. There's been something
that doesn't "feel" quite right so I've deliberately stopped doing
the
work until I read the manual again and again and finally I figured
out
why I'm confused.
Under the "assembling the rear spar of the horizontal stabilizer"
section of Section 6 (The Empennage), near the bottom it says:
"Locate the rivet holes in the rear spar that will attach the HS-606,
HS-608 and HS-405 ribs and the HS-412PP and HS-411PP hinge brackets.
Put tape over them to prevent accidentally riveting these holes
before
the ribs are attached."
This sounds to me like eventually - but not now - these holes are
going to have rivets in 'em.
But two paragraphs later, it says :
"Rivet the HS-412PP and HS-413PP hinge brackets to the spar."
OK, now a paragraph ago it said cover up these holes so you don't
rivet 'em,(at least where 412 is concerned) until the ribs are
attached and now it's saying, 'go ahead and rivet HS-412.' So I've
stopped because I don't want to guess what they mean here.
Also, the next paragraph says "Bolt the HS-411PP center bearing (I'm
assuming they mean the brackets containing the bearing, though i'm
not even sure about this, in the previous paragraph they referred ot
it as the HS-411P hinge brackets, here it says the HS-4121PP center
bearing, which is weird because the bearing is VA-146!) to the spar.
411, again, was one of those that were to be taped over, suggesting
they'd be riveted later, but it looks like these holes are not going
to be rivet holes, but holes drilled with a 3/16" bit, not the #30
hole that's sitting there now, and do it now, not later.
And, also, it included HS-411PP in the list of holes not to rivet
until the ribs are attached but - looking at the iso - it doesn't
look
like the ribs attach.
I"m sure I'm missing something here and I'm trying to figure it out
by
reading on in the manual, but it's difficult to visualize it compared
to where I am and what these particular instructions say.
Sorry to bother everyone.
Bob Collins
St. Paul, MN.
Author: "Dick Isherwood" <risherwood@...> Time: Thu Aug 9, 2001 7:34 pm PDT Link
Bob,
If I remember correctly they had you tape over the holes when you are
setting up to rivet the stiffner to the rear spar so that you wont go
down the line and inadvertantly put a rivet in a hole that you will
need later for a rib or hinge bracket. Once you have riveted the
stiffner to the spar and you go on to rivet the ribs and hinges and
the tape has kept their rivet holes open.
Dick
RV7 N797RV (reserved)
--- In RV7and7A@y..., bcollins@m... wrote:
> I'm still early, obviously, in the work on my 7A and I've been
> reading
> through this things and am progressing slowly. There's been
something
> that doesn't "feel" quite right so I've deliberately stopped doing
> the
> work until I read the manual again and again and finally I figured
> out
> why I'm confused.
>
> Under the "assembling the rear spar of the horizontal stabilizer"
> section of Section 6 (The Empennage), near the bottom it says:
>
> "Locate the rivet holes in the rear spar that will attach the
HS-606,
> HS-608 and HS-405 ribs and the HS-412PP and HS-411PP hinge brackets.
> Put tape over them to prevent accidentally riveting these holes
> before
> the ribs are attached."
>
> This sounds to me like eventually - but not now - these holes are
> going to have rivets in 'em.
>
> But two paragraphs later, it says :
> "Rivet the HS-412PP and HS-413PP hinge brackets to the spar."
>
> OK, now a paragraph ago it said cover up these holes so you don't
> rivet 'em,(at least where 412 is concerned) until the ribs are
> attached and now it's saying, 'go ahead and rivet HS-412.' So I've
> stopped because I don't want to guess what they mean here.
>
> Also, the next paragraph says "Bolt the HS-411PP center bearing (I'm
> assuming they mean the brackets containing the bearing, though i'm
> not even sure about this, in the previous paragraph they referred ot
> it as the HS-411P hinge brackets, here it says the HS-4121PP center
> bearing, which is weird because the bearing is VA-146!) to the spar.
> 411, again, was one of those that were to be taped over, suggesting
> they'd be riveted later, but it looks like these holes are not going
> to be rivet holes, but holes drilled with a 3/16" bit, not the #30
> hole that's sitting there now, and do it now, not later.
>
> And, also, it included HS-411PP in the list of holes not to rivet
> until the ribs are attached but - looking at the iso - it doesn't
> look
> like the ribs attach.
>
> I"m sure I'm missing something here and I'm trying to figure it out
> by
> reading on in the manual, but it's difficult to visualize it
compared
> to where I am and what these particular instructions say.
>
> Sorry to bother everyone.
>
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, MN.
Author: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@...> Time: Fri Aug 10, 2001 6:03 am PDT Link
The holes that you need to 'mark' for skipping are the ones where the ribs are going to be riveted later. I don't remeber any of them corresponding to the hinge brackets. You should be able to put those hinge brackets on with the stiffeners.
If I may offer a piece of advice (rememberit is worth exactly what you pay for it). Don't spend too much time millingover the manual. The manual starts out holding your hands and then very quickly begins to leave you to your own undoing :-). Use the manual to give you a good overview as to the order of how things go together and to warn you of any 'gotcha's' But if you have any questions as to how things go together spend your time staring at drawings. The drawings are definitive, the manual is there to help.
I'm not saying don't read the manual more than once. Read it as many times as you need to get the overview, but if you have questions on which do I skip or where does this go, then look at the drawings.
Just my $0.02
Phil Birkelbach
RV-7 - N727WB (Reserved)
Houston, Texas
http://www.myrv7.com (http://www.myrv7.com)
Takeoffs are optional, Landings are mandatory.
----- Original Message -----
From: bcollins@mpr.org (mailto:bcollins@m...)
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com (mailto:rv7and7a@yahoogroups.com)
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 7:42 PM
Subject: [RV7and7A] HS 411PP and HS 412PP
I'm still early, obviously, in the work on my 7A and I've been
reading
through this things and am progressing slowly. There's been something
that doesn't "feel" quite right so I've deliberately stopped doing
the
work until I read the manual again and again and finally I figured
out
why I'm confused.
Under the "assembling the rear spar of the horizontal stabilizer"
section of Section 6 (The Empennage), near the bottom it says:
"Locate the rivet holes in the rear spar that will attach the HS-606,
HS-608 and HS-405 ribs andthe HS-412PP and HS-411PP hinge brackets.
Put tape over them to prevent accidentally riveting these holes
before
the ribs are attached."
This sounds to me like eventually - but not now - these holes are
going to have rivets in 'em.
But two paragraphs later, it says :
"Rivet the HS-412PP and HS-413PP hinge brackets to the spar."
OK, now a paragraph ago it said cover up these holes so you don't
rivet 'em,(at least where 412 is concerned) until the ribs are
attached and now it's saying, 'go ahead and rivet HS-412.' So I've
stopped because I don't want to guess what they mean here.
Also, the next paragraph says "Bolt the HS-411PP center bearing (I'm
assuming they mean the brackets containing the bearing, though i'm
not even sure about this, in the previous paragraph they referred ot
it as the HS-411P hinge brackets, here it says the HS-4121PP center
bearing, which is weird because the bearing is VA-146!) to the spar.
411, again, was one of those that were to be taped over, suggesting
they'd be riveted later, but it looks like these holes are not going
to be rivet holes, but holes drilled with a 3/16" bit, not the #30
hole that's sitting there now, and do it now, not later.
And, also, it included HS-411PP in the list of holes not to rivet
until the ribs are attached but - looking at the iso - it doesn't
look
like the ribs attach.
I"m sure I'm missing something here and I'm trying to figure it out
by
reading on in the manual, but it's difficult to visualize it compared
to where I am andwhat these particular instructions say.
Sorry to bother everyone.
Bob Collins
St. Paul, MN.
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service (http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/).
(end of quote)
Author: "Daniel R. Masys, M.D." <dmasys@...> Time: Fri Aug 10, 2001 8:23 am PDT Link
At 02:34 AM 8/10/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>If I remember correctly they had you tape over the holes when you are
>setting up to rivet the stiffner to the rear spar so that you wont go
>down the line and inadvertantly put a rivet in a hole that you will
>need later for a rib or hinge bracket. Once you have riveted the
>stiffner to the spar and you go on to rivet the ribs and hinges and
>the tape has kept their rivet holes open.
There is a 'gotcha' about counting holes to cover the one that will be used
to attach to the ribs. I counted holes incorrectly, taped over the wrong
ones, and had to drill out the rivets later. The reason I made this
mistake is that on the plans drawing there is one set of holes that doesn't
exist yet -- it is the set of holes that attach the rear spar to the
fuselage. If you assume that you can simply count the pre-drilled holes in
the rear spar stiffener, you'll be off by one as I was.
On the other hand, the HS assembly has substantially refined my skills at
removing rivets! :-)
Dan Masys
RV7A N868DM (reserved) San Diego, CA
Author: "Daniel R. Masys, M.D." <dmasys@...> Time: Fri Aug 10, 2001 8:33 am PDT Link
At 12:42 AM 8/10/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>"Locate the rivet holes in the rear spar that will attach the HS-606,
>HS-608 and HS-405 ribs and the HS-412PP and HS-411PP hinge brackets.
>Put tape over them to prevent accidentally riveting these holes
>before the ribs are attached."
>
>This sounds to me like eventually - but not now - these holes are
>going to have rivets in 'em.
>
>But two paragraphs later, it says :
>"Rivet the HS-412PP and HS-413PP hinge brackets to the spar."
>OK, now a paragraph ago it said cover up these holes so you don't
>rivet 'em,(at least where 412 is concerned) until the ribs are
>attached and now it's saying, 'go ahead and rivet HS-412.' So I've
>stopped because I don't want to guess what they mean here.
Go ahead and rivet the 412 and 413 hinge brackets. The only holes that
have to be protected at this point are the ones that will attach the HS-405
and HS-608 ribs. Separate msg sent about the tricky ones being the
HS-405's -- it's easy to count wrong and tape over the incorrect hole if
you start counting from the centerline of the HS structure.
>Also, the next paragraph says "Bolt the HS-411PP center bearing (I'm
>assuming they mean the brackets containing the bearing, though i'm
>not even sure about this, in the previous paragraph they referred ot
>it as the HS-411P hinge brackets, here it says the HS-4121PP center
>bearing, which is weird because the bearing is VA-146!) to the spar.
>411, again, was one of those that were to be taped over, suggesting
>they'd be riveted later, but it looks like these holes are not going
>to be rivet holes, but holes drilled with a 3/16" bit, not the #30
>hole that's sitting there now, and do it now, not later.
By this time the HS-411 should be an assembly consisting of the two
brackets and the bearing. They mean to attach the assembly by the AN3 bolts.
>And, also, it included HS-411PP in the list of holes not to rivet
>until the ribs are attached but - looking at the iso - it doesn't
>look like the ribs attach.
Correct. No ribs attach here; the HS-405s attach several holes outboard of
this location.
>I"m sure I'm missing something here and I'm trying to figure it out
>by reading on in the manual, but it's difficult to visualize it compared
>to where I am and what these particular instructions say.
You betcha! I have already re-strategized how to proceed with building any
particular assembly three or four times now. First, I thought I'll just
read the words a sentence at a time, and do exactly what the manual
says. Wrong -- that gets you confused in the manner Bob is confused,
because there are minor inconsistencies and typos in the instructions
text. Next, I thought I'll use the dimensions on the large plan drawings
as the "gold standard" and build to the drawings. Wrong (sortof) -- doing
this you can get the sequence of construction wrong. I bent the HS-810/610
bracket too early (before drilling holes in it) and had to get a
replacement. And currently, the strategy is to relie mostly upon the
physical relationships of other parts that touch the part I am working
on. The CNC punched skins are the best and "final authority" for how the
parts underneath them should relate to one another, and the skins will tell
you, for example, which holes those pesky HS-405 and HS-607 ribs use to
attach to the rear spar.
Currently have the HS skeleton built, primed and skins drilled and
clecoed. Going to the EAA/Sportair workshop in Corona this weekend with my
wife/riveting-buddy before we tackle riveting the skins. Rather than
driving 80 miles we've decided to rent a Cessna and fly up there each day,
and walk to the workshop from the airport. Seems like the best way to get
into the spirit of it :-).
Dan Masys
RV7A N868DM (reserved) San Diego, CA
Author: Bob Collins <bcollins@...> Time: Fri Aug 10, 2001 10:42 am PDT Link
Hmm... I made a similar, sort of mistake...I counted the number of holes
until you get the dashed line..and came up with 8...turns out it should've
been the 10th hole...the dashed line that was going through #8 was actually
heading up to the other stiffener, hole #10.
bc
At 07:56 AM 8/10/01 -0700, Daniel R. Masys, M.D. wrote:
>At 02:34 AM 8/10/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >If I remember correctly they had you tape over the holes when you are
> >setting up to rivet the stiffner to the rear spar so that you wont go
> >down the line and inadvertantly put a rivet in a hole that you will
> >need later for a rib or hinge bracket. Once you have riveted the
> >stiffner to the spar and you go on to rivet the ribs and hinges and
> >the tape has kept their rivet holes open.
>
>There is a 'gotcha' about counting holes to cover the one that will be used
>to attach to the ribs. I counted holes incorrectly, taped over the wrong
>ones, and had to drill out the rivets later. The reason I made this
>mistake is that on the plans drawing there is one set of holes that doesn't
>exist yet -- it is the set of holes that attach the rear spar to the
>fuselage. If you assume that you can simply count the pre-drilled holes in
>the rear spar stiffener, you'll be off by one as I was.
>
>On the other hand, the HS assembly has substantially refined my skills at
>removing rivets! :-)
>
>Dan Masys
>RV7A N868DM (reserved) San Diego, CA
>Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
>www.vansaircraft.net
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: onetall4x4@... Time: Sun Aug 12, 2001 12:41 am PDT Link
I'm still new to the game, I just reviewing preplans right now, it
looks like it would be easier for the placement of the hinges if
Van's would of included distances from the centerline on the rear
view drawing like they did for the top view
Eric Saline
--- In RV7and7A@y..., Bob Collins <bcollins@m...> wrote:
> Hmm... I made a similar, sort of mistake...I counted the number of
holes
> until you get the dashed line..and came up with 8...turns out it
should've
> been the 10th hole...the dashed line that was going through #8 was
actually
> heading up to the other stiffener, hole #10.
>
> bc
>
> At 07:56 AM 8/10/01 -0700, Daniel R. Masys, M.D. wrote:
> >At 02:34 AM 8/10/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> > >If I remember correctly they had you tape over the holes when
you are
> > >setting up to rivet the stiffner to the rear spar so that you
wont go
> > >down the line and inadvertantly put a rivet in a hole that you
will
> > >need later for a rib or hinge bracket. Once you have riveted the
> > >stiffner to the spar and you go on to rivet the ribs and hinges
and
> > >the tape has kept their rivet holes open.
> >
> >There is a 'gotcha' about counting holes to cover the one that
will be used
> >to attach to the ribs. I counted holes incorrectly, taped over
the wrong
> >ones, and had to drill out the rivets later. The reason I made
this
> >mistake is that on the plans drawing there is one set of holes
that doesn't
> >exist yet -- it is the set of holes that attach the rear spar to
the
> >fuselage. If you assume that you can simply count the pre-drilled
holes in
> >the rear spar stiffener, you'll be off by one as I was.
> >
> >On the other hand, the HS assembly has substantially refined my
skills at
> >removing rivets! :-)
> >
> >Dan Masys
> >RV7A N868DM (reserved) San Diego, CA
> >Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> >www.vansaircraft.net
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: dlevy52@... Time: Sat Oct 13, 2001 9:41 am PDT Link
Everything they ask you to tape either should not be riveted OR will
require a different length rivet than the rivets used to rivet 609 to
603.
--- In RV7and7A@y..., bcollins@m... wrote:
> I'm still early, obviously, in the work on my 7A and I've been
> reading
> through this things and am progressing slowly. There's been
something
> that doesn't "feel" quite right so I've deliberately stopped doing
> the
> work until I read the manual again and again and finally I figured
> out
> why I'm confused.
>
> Under the "assembling the rear spar of the horizontal stabilizer"
> section of Section 6 (The Empennage), near the bottom it says:
>
> "Locate the rivet holes in the rear spar that will attach the HS-
606,
> HS-608 and HS-405 ribs and the HS-412PP and HS-411PP hinge
brackets.
> Put tape over them to prevent accidentally riveting these holes
> before
> the ribs are attached."
>
> This sounds to me like eventually - but not now - these holes are
> going to have rivets in 'em.
>
> But two paragraphs later, it says :
> "Rivet the HS-412PP and HS-413PP hinge brackets to the spar."
>
> OK, now a paragraph ago it said cover up these holes so you don't
> rivet 'em,(at least where 412 is concerned) until the ribs are
> attached and now it's saying, 'go ahead and rivet HS-412.' So I've
> stopped because I don't want to guess what they mean here.
>
> Also, the next paragraph says "Bolt the HS-411PP center bearing
(I'm
> assuming they mean the brackets containing the bearing, though i'm
> not even sure about this, in the previous paragraph they referred
ot
> it as the HS-411P hinge brackets, here it says the HS-4121PP center
> bearing, which is weird because the bearing is VA-146!) to the
spar.
> 411, again, was one of those that were to be taped over, suggesting
> they'd be riveted later, but it looks like these holes are not
going
> to be rivet holes, but holes drilled with a 3/16" bit, not the #30
> hole that's sitting there now, and do it now, not later.
>
> And, also, it included HS-411PP in the list of holes not to rivet
> until the ribs are attached but - looking at the iso - it doesn't
> look
> like the ribs attach.
>
> I"m sure I'm missing something here and I'm trying to figure it out
> by
> reading on in the manual, but it's difficult to visualize it
compared
> to where I am and what these particular instructions say.
>
> Sorry to bother everyone.
>
> Bob Collins
> St. Paul, MN.