Author: Clifford Dow <cdowjr@...> Time: Mon Dec 17, 2001 9:09 am PST Link
some very interesting comments can be found at the
following address:
http://www.protekperformance.com/rv7/index.shtml
Look under Additional Topics - Choosing an engine.
If a subaru engine runs better, puts out more hp at
altitute, and cost about 1/3rd that of a lycoming 200
hp - what do we do now?
cliff dow jr
cdowjr@y...
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Author: "robert_paisley" <robert@...> Time: Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:06 am PST Link
John Farra's RV9 will be flying with the Subaru within a week or so.
An RV6 will be flying eith the Subaru in about a month. So stay tuned
for the results. check out http://www.subaruaircraft.com
Robert Paisley
--- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
> some very interesting comments can be found at the
> following address:
> http://www.protekperformance.com/rv7/index.shtml
> Look under Additional Topics - Choosing an engine.
> If a subaru engine runs better, puts out more hp at
> altitute, and cost about 1/3rd that of a lycoming 200
> hp - what do we do now?
> cliff dow jr
> cdowjr@y...
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
Author: "Gary Powers" <gpowers14@...> Time: Mon Dec 17, 2001 2:30 pm PST Link
You know Cliff, the one thing that has not come up under the discussion of non-Lycoming power solutions is how it might affect the resale value of the airplane. Since the -7A will be my fourth airplane, resale value is something I obviously need to consider. The Subaru is interesting and I am giving it some thought, but still ......
Gary Powers
-7A N317LG
working on VS
----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford Dow
To: RV-7A YAHOO GROUP
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:09 AM
Subject: [RV7and7A] Engines - thoughts on whether Lycoming is worth it?
some very interesting comments can be found at the
following address:
http://www.protekperformance.com/rv7/index.shtml
Look under Additional Topics - Choosing an engine.
If a subaru engine runs better, puts out more hp at
altitute, and cost about 1/3rd that of a lycoming 200
hp - what do we do now?
cliff dow jr
cdowjr@y...
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "rp10294648" <rpflanze2@...> Time: Tue Dec 18, 2001 5:22 am PST Link
Absolutely agree. If you want to kill the resale value of your
airplane, put a "non-standard" powerplant in it.
Now if you don't care about resale value, and you are a mechanical
enginner, and you like tinkering with engines rather than flying, go
for it.
Randy Pflanzer
RV-6 (Sold)
RV-7A (Empennage nearly done)
--- In RV7and7A@y..., "Gary Powers" <gpowers14@h...> wrote:
> You know Cliff, the one thing that has not come up under the
discussion of non-Lycoming power solutions is how it might affect the
resale value of the airplane. Since the -7A will be my fourth
airplane, resale value is something I obviously need to consider.
The Subaru is interesting and I am giving it some thought, but
still ......
>
> Gary Powers
> -7A N317LG
> working on VS
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Clifford Dow
> To: RV-7A YAHOO GROUP
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:09 AM
> Subject: [RV7and7A] Engines - thoughts on whether Lycoming is
worth it?
> some very interesting comments can be found at the
> following address:
> http://www.protekperformance.com/rv7/index.shtml
> Look under Additional Topics - Choosing an engine.
> If a subaru engine runs better, puts out more hp at
> altitute, and cost about 1/3rd that of a lycoming 200
> hp - what do we do now?
> cliff dow jr
> cdowjr@y...
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "brian_meier" <brian_meier@...> Time: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:01 pm PST Link
Gary is right on! I just put the deposit down on a NEW IO-360-A1B6
through Van's OEM program. Nothing beats the reliablilty of a
Lycoming!
Brian
RV-7A QB Fuse
--- In RV7and7A@y..., "Gary Powers" <gpowers14@h...> wrote:
> You know Cliff, the one thing that has not come up under the
discussion of non-Lycoming power solutions is how it might affect the
resale value of the airplane. Since the -7A will be my fourth
airplane, resale value is something I obviously need to consider.
The Subaru is interesting and I am giving it some thought, but
still ......
>
> Gary Powers
> -7A N317LG
> working on VS
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Clifford Dow
> To: RV-7A YAHOO GROUP
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 11:09 AM
> Subject: [RV7and7A] Engines - thoughts on whether Lycoming is
worth it?
> some very interesting comments can be found at the
> following address:
> http://www.protekperformance.com/rv7/index.shtml
> Look under Additional Topics - Choosing an engine.
> If a subaru engine runs better, puts out more hp at
> altitute, and cost about 1/3rd that of a lycoming 200
> hp - what do we do now?
> cliff dow jr
> cdowjr@y...
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: fitzair4@... Time: Tue Dec 18, 2001 6:08 pm PST Link
In a message dated 12/18/2001 6:05:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
brian_meier@y... writes:
> Nothing beats the reliablilty of a
> Lycoming! "WHEN the mechanic and pilot takes care of it"
Larry
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: Clifford Dow <cdowjr@...> Time: Wed Dec 19, 2001 7:04 am PST Link
I sent my thoughts to Lycoming and received a very
nice and detailed response - thought you all might
enjoy reading it below. Guess I'll stick with
Lycoming.
Dear Mr. Dow,
Thank you for your e-mail. I have read your
attachment on the Subaru
engine
several times, sent to us from other people as well
from the writer
himself.
I offer the following comments for your consideration.
A few years ago, Toyota Motors decided they wanted to
build a "new
technology" aircraft engine using one of their Lexus
engines as the
base.
They spent close to 20 million dollars to develop and
certify a liquid
cooled engine with all the latest electronic
technologies. When they
were
finished, they had an engine that was much more
expensive, heavier,
burned
about the same amount of fuel per horse power and was
not as reliable
as the
"old technology" Lycoming. ( Andy by the way, still
had to burn
100LL).
Toyota never requested a Production Certificate (PC)
for that engine,
because in the end it did not prove to be any better
than the "old
technology" Lycoming.
I am sure you are aware of the Porsche project. It
too, has bitten the
dust, and all those applications are now being
replaced with "old
technology" engines at Porsche's expense.
One of the knocks that both Lycoming and Continental
continually get is
that
the engine technology is 40 years old. Actually, it
is even older than
that. Lycoming recently delivered its 300,000th
"modern" opposed
engine (to
a Van's customer) and I believe that count started in
the late 40s.
Lycoming does have an excellent engine design
department. Over the
years it
has made incremental changes to the engines that have
continued to
improve
reliability, fuel economy, etc. Lycoming is currently
developing new
electronic engine controls that are expected to be
certified during
2002.
This has not been an easy thing to do. To become
certified you must
meet
many FAA mandated requirements, such as HERF (High
Energy Radio
Frequency),
lightening strike protection, redundancy, etc. (And
also, the FAA has
had
not experience in certifying electronic controls on
piston aircraft, so
they
are also struggling with what is required.) No
automobile electronic
engine
controls have to meet any of these requirements. When
they fail, you
just
pull over to the curb. At the same time, all this
must be done at a
cost
that is affordable to aircraft owners and operators.
The system that
was
developed for the Toyota engine cost more than $10,000
a copy. You
need to
save a lot of fuel burn to pay for such a system.
Lycoming is hoping
to
make its system cost neutral to the non-electronic
equipment it is
replacing.
Lycoming also has a joint development agreement with
a major technical
partner to develop a piston engine that operates on
Jet A. This engine
is on
our test stands today, with flight testing scheduled
to start in 2003
and
certification in 2004. The initial engine will be 230
hp @ 2200 rpm.
The one thing that everyone is quick to forget today
is that from the
late
70s through the mid 90s, there were virtually no
piston aircraft being
built. Cessna was out of production, Piper was in
bankruptcy and the
industry as a whole was producing less than a thousand
aircraft a year
(including business jets). It takes a great deal of
money to design,
build, test and certify a new engine. (in Toyota's
case $20 million
with a
proven engine). When you are selling less than 300
engines a year,
where do
you get the millions to invest? What is the pay back?
How many
aircraft
engines do you have to sell to get a return on your
investment? Even
Porche
and Toyota were not willing to make that investment
and they are much
larger
companies and have much more R&D money than Lycoming.
Fortunately
today,
more aircraft are being built, and this has allowed
for more investment
in
new technologies as mentioned above. However, you are
not seeing a lot
of
aircraft companies running out to certify "new
technology" engines in
their
"new technology" aircraft, but choosing to stay with
proven technology
engines. (This is not to say, that they are not
exerting pressure on
engine manufacturers to develop new technologies.)
While we are not throwing stones at any new engine
programs out there
such,
as the Subaru EJ25, we do know to date, there has not
been a successful
serial conversion from an automobile engine to an
aircraft engine, and
plenty have tried. For one thing, an automobile
engine rarely ever
sees max
power during its life and is not designed to do so.
An aircraft engine
sees
it on every take off. An automobile engine is also
not designed to
deal
with a 20 year life cycle that an aircraft engine sees
routinely.
Lycoming
engines have proven to provide long, reliable service
for 2000 hours
and
beyond.
Just one thing on service. Lycoming has a world-wide
net work of
distributors for Lycoming parts. Virtually every
airport has mechanics
who
are trained and certified to work on Lycoming engines.
Can your
automobile
engine conversion provide the same level of parts,
service and
convenience?
We will be more than happy to provide you with the
literature you have
requested and also ask you to talk to Van's before
making an decision.
They, more than anyone, can tell you the experiences
from their kits
builders with Lycoming engines.
We wish you the best of luck with your RV-7A.
Kindest regards,
Paul A. LeFevre
Director of Sales & Marketing
PAL-01348-em
--- fitzair4@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/18/2001 6:05:55 PM Pacific
> Standard Time,
> brian_meier@y... writes:
> > Nothing beats the reliablilty of a
> > Lycoming! "WHEN the mechanic and pilot takes
> care of it"
>
> Larry
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
__________________________________________________
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Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
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Author: "rv7boy" <rv7boy@...> Time: Wed Dec 19, 2001 10:12 am PST Link
Hi All:
I have been waiting to add my comments to this discussion, because I
do believe there are some significant improvements being made in the
auto engine conversion arena.
However, when I get ready to buy my engine, there are two concerns
that I will have. One...will I be able to buy fuel at most any
airport where I may land? I can imagine a group of RV's going to
Oshkosh and one pilot of the group says over the radio,"I can't land
at that airport because they don't have the fuel my engine needs."
And don't tell me there won't be any 100LL out there in a few years.
If it does happen, I won't be the only O-360 buying whatever
alternative the aviation fuel industry provides us.
Secondly, my RV will be for cross-country flying, not for hanging
around within 50 miles of my home airport. If I have a maintenance
problem out there somewhere, I don't want to hope that an auto parts
store will sell me a part for my airplane. Nor do I want to be the
mechanic myself, or find an auto mechanic who would be willing to
work on my airplane engine (there wouldn't be many auto mechanics out
there I would trust sight unseen! And I guarantee an A&P at the
airport wouldn't touch an auto conversion.)
So, is that worth a savings of $12,000? ( I don't buy the comparison
with a new IO-360 of $36,000 vs. $13,000 for an auto conversion.) A
good friend recently bought an overhauled, low time O-360 for
$10,500! Anyway, I digress. Please don't flame me. Some of you
have already flamed me with your replies to others, so consider me
already flamed!
The auto conversions (names withheld) hold some promise, but I am not
a convert yet. I admire those of you who are installing the auto
conversions, and I will be interested in your progress. However,
I'll buy the Lycoming reliability with my dollars. Will I be
interested in electronic ignition in the Lycoming? Probably. Would
I put an auto conversion in an airplane? Yes, depending on the
airplane...for example, a Pietenpol would be a good choice. Has
anyone
put a Corvair engine in an RV yet? I don't know.
The comments made by Mr. Lefevre of Lycoming are most interesting.
If I have offended any of you, take a deep breath and say thanks for
living in a country where we can build our own airplanes and make our
own decisions and have free discussions of the merits of one
powerplant over another!
Happy Holidays!
Don