Author: Paul Besing <azpilot@...> Time: Wed Jan 16, 2002 9:07 am PST Link
Have you ever pulled 6 g's? I don't think that would
be an issue. Most people can't handle 6 G's without
blacking out or puking, if you are not accustomed to
it.
I wouldn't hesitate to put push buttons and toggles in
my next plane. As far as security is concerned, I
will have a either a retinal scan device (RSD) or a
fingerprint reader (FR) that is required to turn the
airplane on.
Paul Besing
--- Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
> Randy:
>
> I like the idea, but then how do you keep someone
> from
> firing it up and flying off with your RV - with NO
> KEY????
>
> Also, is there absolutly no way pulling 6 G's could
> cause one of these flip switches to flip the other
> way
> and shut you down?
>
> Cliff Dow, Jr.
> cdowjr@y...
> Maine RV-7A QB Builder
> --- rp10294648 <rpflanze2@h...> wrote:
> > In the "FILES" section, I have my spreadsheet of
> > costs based upon
> > what I discovered building my -6. Current
> estimate
> > is $75,000 and it
> > keeps changing (up, not down).
> >
> > BTW, send the ignition switch back and get
> yourself
> > two toggle
> > switches and a push button. That switch is a
> single
> > point of failure
> > for your ignition system and is the least reliable
> > component of your
> > electical system. (Aerolectric Connection)
> >
> > Randy
> >
> > --- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > January 16, 2002
> > >
> > > Oh yippy – more parts came today – lets see two
> > wing
> > > tip lights, replacement wing tip lens, two rolls
> > of
> > > wire, two tie down rings, extra nut plates and
> > screws,
> > > $12.00 pitot tube, Ignition switch – TOTAL BILL:
>
> > GEE
> > > ONLY $508.92! Now if I were building a hot rod,
> > those
> > > parts might cost $100! Hope that $82 ignition
> > switch
> > > is an FAA CERTIFIED ONE!
> > >
> > > I'd be curious to know if any of you have added
> > your
> > > receipts lately? I'm at $32,000 so far and the
> > engine
> > > is most likely my next purchase. How many of
> you
> > QB
> > > builders have taken delivery of Wings, Fuselage,
> > > Empinage, and Finish kit?
> > >
> > > There were 30 QB kits in the first batch. The
> > next
> > > batch had 45 and I was about #40 in the secound
> > batch.
> > > So there should be at least 30 kits out there
> way
> > > ahead of me - I would think. I'm dying to get
> > some
> > > feed back once some of these is flying.
> > >
> > > It's an addictive hobby – lovin' it in Maine.
> > > Cliff Dow, Jr.
> > > Cdowjr@y...
> > > Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> __________________________________________________
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Author: Clifford Dow <cdowjr@...> Time: Wed Jan 16, 2002 9:33 am PST Link
Paul:
Never pulled 6 g's - just got a big head and like to
think big!
I assume you were joking on the retinal scanner or
fingerprint scanner - if not tell me more - sounds
like niffty idea!
Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems like there's
got to be some method to prevent just anyone from
flying off - like a key?
cliff jr
cdowjr@y...
--- Paul Besing <azpilot@e...> wrote:
> Have you ever pulled 6 g's? I don't think that
> would
> be an issue. Most people can't handle 6 G's without
> blacking out or puking, if you are not accustomed to
> it.
>
> I wouldn't hesitate to put push buttons and toggles
> in
> my next plane. As far as security is concerned, I
> will have a either a retinal scan device (RSD) or a
> fingerprint reader (FR) that is required to turn the
> airplane on.
>
> Paul Besing
> --- Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
> > Randy:
> >
> > I like the idea, but then how do you keep someone
> > from
> > firing it up and flying off with your RV - with NO
> > KEY????
> >
> > Also, is there absolutly no way pulling 6 G's
> could
> > cause one of these flip switches to flip the other
> > way
> > and shut you down?
> >
> > Cliff Dow, Jr.
> > cdowjr@y...
> > Maine RV-7A QB Builder
> > --- rp10294648 <rpflanze2@h...> wrote:
> > > In the "FILES" section, I have my spreadsheet of
> > > costs based upon
> > > what I discovered building my -6. Current
> > estimate
> > > is $75,000 and it
> > > keeps changing (up, not down).
> > >
> > > BTW, send the ignition switch back and get
> > yourself
> > > two toggle
> > > switches and a push button. That switch is a
> > single
> > > point of failure
> > > for your ignition system and is the least
> reliable
> > > component of your
> > > electical system. (Aerolectric Connection)
> > >
> > > Randy
> > >
> > > --- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > January 16, 2002
> > > >
> > > > Oh yippy – more parts came today – lets see
> two
> > > wing
> > > > tip lights, replacement wing tip lens, two
> rolls
> > > of
> > > > wire, two tie down rings, extra nut plates and
> > > screws,
> > > > $12.00 pitot tube, Ignition switch – TOTAL
> BILL:
> >
> > > GEE
> > > > ONLY $508.92! Now if I were building a hot
> rod,
> > > those
> > > > parts might cost $100! Hope that $82 ignition
> > > switch
> > > > is an FAA CERTIFIED ONE!
> > > >
> > > > I'd be curious to know if any of you have
> added
> > > your
> > > > receipts lately? I'm at $32,000 so far and
> the
> > > engine
> > > > is most likely my next purchase. How many of
> > you
> > > QB
> > > > builders have taken delivery of Wings,
> Fuselage,
> > > > Empinage, and Finish kit?
> > > >
> > > > There were 30 QB kits in the first batch. The
> > > next
> > > > batch had 45 and I was about #40 in the
> secound
> > > batch.
> > > > So there should be at least 30 kits out there
> > way
> > > > ahead of me - I would think. I'm dying to get
> > > some
> > > > feed back once some of these is flying.
> > > >
> > > > It's an addictive hobby – lovin' it in Maine.
> > > > Cliff Dow, Jr.
> > > > Cdowjr@y...
> > > > Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> > www.vansaircraft.net
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> www.vansaircraft.net
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
__________________________________________________
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Author: Paul Besing <azpilot@...> Time: Wed Jan 16, 2002 9:59 am PST Link
I don't think there could be enough g's to throw a
toggle, anyway!
Yeah, I was joking about the retinal scan and finger
print reader, but hey, now that you mention it, it
might be a good idea! Fingerprint readers are coming
down in price.
Paul
--- Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
> Paul:
>
> Never pulled 6 g's - just got a big head and like to
> think big!
>
> I assume you were joking on the retinal scanner or
> fingerprint scanner - if not tell me more - sounds
> like niffty idea!
>
> Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems like there's
> got to be some method to prevent just anyone from
> flying off - like a key?
>
> cliff jr
> cdowjr@y...
> --- Paul Besing <azpilot@e...> wrote:
> > Have you ever pulled 6 g's? I don't think that
> > would
> > be an issue. Most people can't handle 6 G's
> without
> > blacking out or puking, if you are not accustomed
> to
> > it.
> >
> > I wouldn't hesitate to put push buttons and
> toggles
> > in
> > my next plane. As far as security is concerned, I
> > will have a either a retinal scan device (RSD) or
> a
> > fingerprint reader (FR) that is required to turn
> the
> > airplane on.
> >
> > Paul Besing
> > --- Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
> > > Randy:
> > >
> > > I like the idea, but then how do you keep
> someone
> > > from
> > > firing it up and flying off with your RV - with
> NO
> > > KEY????
> > >
> > > Also, is there absolutly no way pulling 6 G's
> > could
> > > cause one of these flip switches to flip the
> other
> > > way
> > > and shut you down?
> > >
> > > Cliff Dow, Jr.
> > > cdowjr@y...
> > > Maine RV-7A QB Builder
> > > --- rp10294648 <rpflanze2@h...> wrote:
> > > > In the "FILES" section, I have my spreadsheet
> of
> > > > costs based upon
> > > > what I discovered building my -6. Current
> > > estimate
> > > > is $75,000 and it
> > > > keeps changing (up, not down).
> > > >
> > > > BTW, send the ignition switch back and get
> > > yourself
> > > > two toggle
> > > > switches and a push button. That switch is a
> > > single
> > > > point of failure
> > > > for your ignition system and is the least
> > reliable
> > > > component of your
> > > > electical system. (Aerolectric Connection)
> > > >
> > > > Randy
> > > >
> > > > --- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow
> <cdowjr@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > January 16, 2002
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh yippy – more parts came today – lets see
> > two
> > > > wing
> > > > > tip lights, replacement wing tip lens, two
> > rolls
> > > > of
> > > > > wire, two tie down rings, extra nut plates
> and
> > > > screws,
> > > > > $12.00 pitot tube, Ignition switch – TOTAL
> > BILL:
> > >
> > > > GEE
> > > > > ONLY $508.92! Now if I were building a hot
> > rod,
> > > > those
> > > > > parts might cost $100! Hope that $82
> ignition
> > > > switch
> > > > > is an FAA CERTIFIED ONE!
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd be curious to know if any of you have
> > added
> > > > your
> > > > > receipts lately? I'm at $32,000 so far and
> > the
> > > > engine
> > > > > is most likely my next purchase. How many
> of
> > > you
> > > > QB
> > > > > builders have taken delivery of Wings,
> > Fuselage,
> > > > > Empinage, and Finish kit?
> > > > >
> > > > > There were 30 QB kits in the first batch.
> The
> > > > next
> > > > > batch had 45 and I was about #40 in the
> > secound
> > > > batch.
> > > > > So there should be at least 30 kits out
> there
> > > way
> > > > > ahead of me - I would think. I'm dying to
> get
> > > > some
> > > > > feed back once some of these is flying.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's an addictive hobby – lovin' it in
> Maine.
> > > > > Cliff Dow, Jr.
> > > > > Cdowjr@y...
> > > > > Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
> __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > > > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> > > www.vansaircraft.net
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> > www.vansaircraft.net
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> __________________________________________________
>
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
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Author: "davidd010" <david010@...> Time: Wed Jan 16, 2002 5:36 pm PST Link
Re "Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems like there's got to be some
method to prevent just anyone from flying off - like a key?"
There is. I have three toggle switches - one for start and one each
for the ignition systems - but the start switch won't work unless one
other switch is on in addition to the master switch. (It's so secret
even I forget where it is if I'm away from the airplane for six
weeks.)
I've never heard of a toggle switch being moved by a G load. WWII
fighters had no key ignition switch and lots of toggle switches.
Key ignition switches are for Cessnas and Pipers, real airplanes
don't have them.
dd
Author: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@...> Time: Wed Jan 16, 2002 7:33 pm PST Link
Okay math time. Toggle switch lever weighs what about a half an ounce
maybe. So at 6 g's it weighs 3 ounces. Now the lever's CG is about a 1/4"
from the rotation point so the torque applied to the switch is 0.25in * 3oz
for 0.75 in-oz or 0.046875 in-lb. Not a lot of torque. Sorry I just had to
do it. (Disclaimer: I never got off of my lazy butt during these
calculations to measure a toggle switch lever, let alone to weigh one but I
thought the discussion needed some math :-)
There are lots of Super Decathalons out there that have toggle switches. I
don't think there is much of a chance of high G loads causing a switch to
trip off.
As far as locking your plane. What about a control lock that has a padlock
on it. Something like 'The Club' for your airplane. If you have the bird
tied down on the ramp you will want a control lock on it anyway. I was
thinking about something that attached to either side of the seats and to
the control stick that had to be removed before the pilot could get in so
that it would be impossible to forget. It might be too heavy but I haven't
gotten that far yet.
Godspeed,
Phil
http://www.myrv7.com
Houston Texas
Wings - Fuse on order
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Besing <azpilot@e...>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [RV7and7A] 6 G's and Ignition Switch
> I don't think there could be enough g's to throw a
> toggle, anyway!
>
> Yeah, I was joking about the retinal scan and finger
> print reader, but hey, now that you mention it, it
> might be a good idea! Fingerprint readers are coming
> down in price.
>
> Paul
>
> --- Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
> > Paul:
> >
> > Never pulled 6 g's - just got a big head and like to
> > think big!
> >
> > I assume you were joking on the retinal scanner or
> > fingerprint scanner - if not tell me more - sounds
> > like niffty idea!
> >
> > Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems like there's
> > got to be some method to prevent just anyone from
> > flying off - like a key?
> >
> > cliff jr
> > cdowjr@y...
> > --- Paul Besing <azpilot@e...> wrote:
> > > Have you ever pulled 6 g's? I don't think that
> > > would
> > > be an issue. Most people can't handle 6 G's
> > without
> > > blacking out or puking, if you are not accustomed
> > to
> > > it.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't hesitate to put push buttons and
> > toggles
> > > in
> > > my next plane. As far as security is concerned, I
> > > will have a either a retinal scan device (RSD) or
> > a
> > > fingerprint reader (FR) that is required to turn
> > the
> > > airplane on.
> > >
> > > Paul Besing
> > > --- Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
> > > > Randy:
> > > >
> > > > I like the idea, but then how do you keep
> > someone
> > > > from
> > > > firing it up and flying off with your RV - with
> > NO
> > > > KEY????
> > > >
> > > > Also, is there absolutly no way pulling 6 G's
> > > could
> > > > cause one of these flip switches to flip the
> > other
> > > > way
> > > > and shut you down?
> > > >
> > > > Cliff Dow, Jr.
> > > > cdowjr@y...
> > > > Maine RV-7A QB Builder
> > > > --- rp10294648 <rpflanze2@h...> wrote:
> > > > > In the "FILES" section, I have my spreadsheet
> > of
> > > > > costs based upon
> > > > > what I discovered building my -6. Current
> > > > estimate
> > > > > is $75,000 and it
> > > > > keeps changing (up, not down).
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW, send the ignition switch back and get
> > > > yourself
> > > > > two toggle
> > > > > switches and a push button. That switch is a
> > > > single
> > > > > point of failure
> > > > > for your ignition system and is the least
> > > reliable
> > > > > component of your
> > > > > electical system. (Aerolectric Connection)
> > > > >
> > > > > Randy
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow
> > <cdowjr@y...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > January 16, 2002
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh yippy - more parts came today - lets see
> > > two
> > > > > wing
> > > > > > tip lights, replacement wing tip lens, two
> > > rolls
> > > > > of
> > > > > > wire, two tie down rings, extra nut plates
> > and
> > > > > screws,
> > > > > > $12.00 pitot tube, Ignition switch - TOTAL
> > > BILL:
> > > >
> > > > > GEE
> > > > > > ONLY $508.92! Now if I were building a hot
> > > rod,
> > > > > those
> > > > > > parts might cost $100! Hope that $82
> > ignition
> > > > > switch
> > > > > > is an FAA CERTIFIED ONE!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'd be curious to know if any of you have
> > > added
> > > > > your
> > > > > > receipts lately? I'm at $32,000 so far and
> > > the
> > > > > engine
> > > > > > is most likely my next purchase. How many
> > of
> > > > you
> > > > > QB
> > > > > > builders have taken delivery of Wings,
> > > Fuselage,
> > > > > > Empinage, and Finish kit?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There were 30 QB kits in the first batch.
> > The
> > > > > next
> > > > > > batch had 45 and I was about #40 in the
> > > secound
> > > > > batch.
> > > > > > So there should be at least 30 kits out
> > there
> > > > way
> > > > > > ahead of me - I would think. I'm dying to
> > get
> > > > > some
> > > > > > feed back once some of these is flying.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's an addictive hobby - lovin' it in
> > Maine.
> > > > > > Cliff Dow, Jr.
> > > > > > Cdowjr@y...
> > > > > > Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > > > > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > > Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> > > > www.vansaircraft.net
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> > >
> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> > > www.vansaircraft.net
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > __________________________________________________
> >
> === message truncated ===
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: Clifford Dow <cdowjr@...> Time: Thu Jan 17, 2002 7:06 am PST Link
That's the perfect solution - a hidden switch under
the dash which you could reach from the seat. You
might even put in an ignition switch - just a dummy
one and never use it - since the hole is already in
the prepunched dash. heck you might even run some
dummy wires from the dummy ignition switch just to
confuse anyone trying to hotwire it - not that that's
a big problem.
Thank you much - one less thing for me to think about.
cliff dow jr
cdowjr@y...
Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
--- davidd010 <david010@s...> wrote:
> Re "Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems like
> there's got to be some
> method to prevent just anyone from flying off - like
> a key?"
>
> There is. I have three toggle switches - one for
> start and one each
> for the ignition systems - but the start switch
> won't work unless one
> other switch is on in addition to the master switch.
> (It's so secret
> even I forget where it is if I'm away from the
> airplane for six
> weeks.)
>
> I've never heard of a toggle switch being moved by a
> G load. WWII
> fighters had no key ignition switch and lots of
> toggle switches.
>
> Key ignition switches are for Cessnas and Pipers,
> real airplanes
> don't have them.
>
> dd
__________________________________________________
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Author: "rp10294648" <rpflanze2@...> Time: Thu Jan 17, 2002 8:49 am PST Link
My only caution would be to make sure that your hidden switch isn't a
single point of failure. Then you're trusting your entire ignition
circuit on a $5 toggle switch not failing. In other words, if the
switch fails "closed" and it grounds out both magnetos, then you'll
have an engine failure. I can't tell from David's post how he has
his switch wired.
The simplicity of the two mag switches and a push-to-start switch is
what makes it so nice. The toggles simply unground the mag so they
fire. For a total failure to happen, both toggles need to fail in
the "closed", or grounded position at the same time. Not a likely
scenario.
BTW, if someone wants to steal your airplane, it won't be very hard
to do. I think the best way is to lock your canopy. That way they
have to break it to get in which will essentially ground it.
However, the downside is if they just want to steal your radios
(probably a more likely scenario), then you're faced with replacing a
canopy. Yuck. I'm betting that the thief doesn't have a tailwheel
endorsement. :>)
Randy
--- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
> That's the perfect solution - a hidden switch under
> the dash which you could reach from the seat. You
> might even put in an ignition switch - just a dummy
> one and never use it - since the hole is already in
> the prepunched dash. heck you might even run some
> dummy wires from the dummy ignition switch just to
> confuse anyone trying to hotwire it - not that that's
> a big problem.
> Thank you much - one less thing for me to think about.
> cliff dow jr
> cdowjr@y...
> Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
> --- davidd010 <david010@s...> wrote:
> > Re "Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems like
> > there's got to be some
> > method to prevent just anyone from flying off - like
> > a key?"
> >
> > There is. I have three toggle switches - one for
> > start and one each
> > for the ignition systems - but the start switch
> > won't work unless one
> > other switch is on in addition to the master switch.
> > (It's so secret
> > even I forget where it is if I'm away from the
> > airplane for six
> > weeks.)
> >
> > I've never heard of a toggle switch being moved by a
> > G load. WWII
> > fighters had no key ignition switch and lots of
> > toggle switches.
> >
> > Key ignition switches are for Cessnas and Pipers,
> > real airplanes
> > don't have them.
> >
> > dd
> __________________________________________________
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> Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
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Author: Clifford Dow <cdowjr@...> Time: Thu Jan 17, 2002 9:54 am PST Link
January 17, 2002
Randy:
What if the hidden switches were actually two switches
in parallel (not series). Both off and nothing works.
Either one or both on and it flies - normally you
would flip both ON to fly - however, if one failed,
then the other would do the trick.
In short, the scenario I envision is as follows:
Flip switch #1 UNGROUNDS mag. #1.
Flip switch #2 UNGROUNDS mag. #2.
Starter button powers the starter solenoid.
We cannot start the airplane without spinning the
starter motor – so the wire feed from the starter
button could just go to two hidden switches run in
parallel. This way when we have both hidden switches
off – nothing happens. When we normally fly – we flip
them both on – so we can spin the starter by pushing
the starter button. If one failed, the other would do
the trick. A failure of one button in flight wouldn’t
effect anything anyway. Failure of both switches
wouldn’t affect anything either – that is unless you
had to restart your motor in flight – an unusual
event.
And so for this system to fail, we’d have to have both
switches fail at the same time and then we’d have to
have your motor quit as well – then we might have a
mess. The odds of these three things happening all at
the same time are probably pretty remote.
Of course if someone flips on the mags and has a
friend up front spin the prop manually – then I guess
my system would be defeated.
Cliff Dow, Jr.
Cdowjr@y...
Maine RV-7A Builder.
--- rp10294648 <rpflanze2@h...> wrote:
> My only caution would be to make sure that your
> hidden switch isn't a
> single point of failure. Then you're trusting your
> entire ignition
> circuit on a $5 toggle switch not failing. In other
> words, if the
> switch fails "closed" and it grounds out both
> magnetos, then you'll
> have an engine failure. I can't tell from David's
> post how he has
> his switch wired.
>
> The simplicity of the two mag switches and a
> push-to-start switch is
> what makes it so nice. The toggles simply unground
> the mag so they
> fire. For a total failure to happen, both toggles
> need to fail in
> the "closed", or grounded position at the same time.
> Not a likely
> scenario.
>
> BTW, if someone wants to steal your airplane, it
> won't be very hard
> to do. I think the best way is to lock your canopy.
> That way they
> have to break it to get in which will essentially
> ground it.
> However, the downside is if they just want to steal
> your radios
> (probably a more likely scenario), then you're faced
> with replacing a
> canopy. Yuck. I'm betting that the thief doesn't
> have a tailwheel
> endorsement. :>)
>
> Randy
> --- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...>
> wrote:
> > That's the perfect solution - a hidden switch
> under
> > the dash which you could reach from the seat. You
> > might even put in an ignition switch - just a
> dummy
> > one and never use it - since the hole is already
> in
> > the prepunched dash. heck you might even run some
> > dummy wires from the dummy ignition switch just to
> > confuse anyone trying to hotwire it - not that
> that's
> > a big problem.
> > Thank you much - one less thing for me to think
> about.
> > cliff dow jr
> > cdowjr@y...
> > Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
> > --- davidd010 <david010@s...> wrote:
> > > Re "Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems like
> > > there's got to be some
> > > method to prevent just anyone from flying off -
> like
> > > a key?"
> > >
> > > There is. I have three toggle switches - one
> for
> > > start and one each
> > > for the ignition systems - but the start switch
> > > won't work unless one
> > > other switch is on in addition to the master
> switch.
> > > (It's so secret
> > > even I forget where it is if I'm away from the
> > > airplane for six
> > > weeks.)
> > >
> > > I've never heard of a toggle switch being moved
> by a
> > > G load. WWII
> > > fighters had no key ignition switch and lots of
> > > toggle switches.
> > >
> > > Key ignition switches are for Cessnas and
> Pipers,
> > > real airplanes
> > > don't have them.
> > >
> > > dd
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
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Author: Tom Caruthers <tomcaruthers@...> Time: Thu Jan 17, 2002 11:12 am PST Link
This all sounds too complicated with hidden switches
and such.
1. If someone wants to steal your plane, they will.
Buy insurance.
2. Keep your plane in a hanger.
my $.02 worth.
TC
--- Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
>
> January 17, 2002
>
> Randy:
>
> What if the hidden switches were actually two
> switches
> in parallel (not series). Both off and nothing
> works.
> Either one or both on and it flies - normally you
> would flip both ON to fly - however, if one failed,
> then the other would do the trick.
>
> In short, the scenario I envision is as follows:
>
> Flip switch #1 UNGROUNDS mag. #1.
> Flip switch #2 UNGROUNDS mag. #2.
> Starter button powers the starter solenoid.
>
> We cannot start the airplane without spinning the
> starter motor – so the wire feed from the starter
> button could just go to two hidden switches run in
> parallel. This way when we have both hidden
> switches
> off – nothing happens. When we normally fly – we
> flip
> them both on – so we can spin the starter by pushing
> the starter button. If one failed, the other would
> do
> the trick. A failure of one button in flight
> wouldn’t
> effect anything anyway. Failure of both switches
> wouldn’t affect anything either – that is unless you
> had to restart your motor in flight – an unusual
> event.
>
> And so for this system to fail, we’d have to have
> both
> switches fail at the same time and then we’d have to
> have your motor quit as well – then we might have a
> mess. The odds of these three things happening all
> at
> the same time are probably pretty remote.
>
> Of course if someone flips on the mags and has a
> friend up front spin the prop manually – then I
> guess
> my system would be defeated.
>
> Cliff Dow, Jr.
> Cdowjr@y...
> Maine RV-7A Builder.
> --- rp10294648 <rpflanze2@h...> wrote:
> > My only caution would be to make sure that your
> > hidden switch isn't a
> > single point of failure. Then you're trusting
> your
> > entire ignition
> > circuit on a $5 toggle switch not failing. In
> other
> > words, if the
> > switch fails "closed" and it grounds out both
> > magnetos, then you'll
> > have an engine failure. I can't tell from David's
> > post how he has
> > his switch wired.
> >
> > The simplicity of the two mag switches and a
> > push-to-start switch is
> > what makes it so nice. The toggles simply
> unground
> > the mag so they
> > fire. For a total failure to happen, both toggles
> > need to fail in
> > the "closed", or grounded position at the same
> time.
> > Not a likely
> > scenario.
> >
> > BTW, if someone wants to steal your airplane, it
> > won't be very hard
> > to do. I think the best way is to lock your
> canopy.
> > That way they
> > have to break it to get in which will essentially
> > ground it.
> > However, the downside is if they just want to
> steal
> > your radios
> > (probably a more likely scenario), then you're
> faced
> > with replacing a
> > canopy. Yuck. I'm betting that the thief doesn't
> > have a tailwheel
> > endorsement. :>)
> >
> > Randy
> > --- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > That's the perfect solution - a hidden switch
> > under
> > > the dash which you could reach from the seat.
> You
> > > might even put in an ignition switch - just a
> > dummy
> > > one and never use it - since the hole is already
> > in
> > > the prepunched dash. heck you might even run
> some
> > > dummy wires from the dummy ignition switch just
> to
> > > confuse anyone trying to hotwire it - not that
> > that's
> > > a big problem.
> > > Thank you much - one less thing for me to think
> > about.
> > > cliff dow jr
> > > cdowjr@y...
> > > Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
> > > --- davidd010 <david010@s...> wrote:
> > > > Re "Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems like
> > > > there's got to be some
> > > > method to prevent just anyone from flying off
> -
> > like
> > > > a key?"
> > > >
> > > > There is. I have three toggle switches - one
> > for
> > > > start and one each
> > > > for the ignition systems - but the start
> switch
> > > > won't work unless one
> > > > other switch is on in addition to the master
> > switch.
> > > > (It's so secret
> > > > even I forget where it is if I'm away from the
> > > > airplane for six
> > > > weeks.)
> > > >
> > > > I've never heard of a toggle switch being
> moved
> > by a
> > > > G load. WWII
> > > > fighters had no key ignition switch and lots
> of
> > > > toggle switches.
> > > >
> > > > Key ignition switches are for Cessnas and
> > Pipers,
> > > > real airplanes
> > > > don't have them.
> > > >
> > > > dd
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
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Author: Paul Besing <azpilot@...> Time: Thu Jan 17, 2002 11:17 am PST Link
The problem with this is, these are not spam cans. We
have years of hard work, marriage stress, blood,
sweat, tears, etc into the airplane. Yes, insurance
would pay for it, but with a deductable. Also, your
rates would go up on a new plane. But the hardest
part is losing all of your labor.
If I had a spam can that got hit by another plane, big
deal. Get it fixed by his insurance. If my RV got
hit by another plane, I think I would kill the person
who hit it.
My $.02!
--- Tom Caruthers <tomcaruthers@y...> wrote:
> This all sounds too complicated with hidden switches
> and such.
>
> 1. If someone wants to steal your plane, they will.
>
> Buy insurance.
>
> 2. Keep your plane in a hanger.
>
> my $.02 worth.
>
> TC
>
> --- Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
> >
> > January 17, 2002
> >
> > Randy:
> >
> > What if the hidden switches were actually two
> > switches
> > in parallel (not series). Both off and nothing
> > works.
> > Either one or both on and it flies - normally you
> > would flip both ON to fly - however, if one
> failed,
> > then the other would do the trick.
> >
> > In short, the scenario I envision is as follows:
> >
> > Flip switch #1 UNGROUNDS mag. #1.
> > Flip switch #2 UNGROUNDS mag. #2.
> > Starter button powers the starter solenoid.
> >
> > We cannot start the airplane without spinning the
> > starter motor – so the wire feed from the starter
> > button could just go to two hidden switches run in
> > parallel. This way when we have both hidden
> > switches
> > off – nothing happens. When we normally fly – we
> > flip
> > them both on – so we can spin the starter by
> pushing
> > the starter button. If one failed, the other
> would
> > do
> > the trick. A failure of one button in flight
> > wouldn’t
> > effect anything anyway. Failure of both switches
> > wouldn’t affect anything either – that is unless
> you
> > had to restart your motor in flight – an unusual
> > event.
> >
> > And so for this system to fail, we’d have to have
> > both
> > switches fail at the same time and then we’d have
> to
> > have your motor quit as well – then we might have
> a
> > mess. The odds of these three things happening
> all
> > at
> > the same time are probably pretty remote.
> >
> > Of course if someone flips on the mags and has a
> > friend up front spin the prop manually – then I
> > guess
> > my system would be defeated.
> >
> > Cliff Dow, Jr.
> > Cdowjr@y...
> > Maine RV-7A Builder.
> > --- rp10294648 <rpflanze2@h...> wrote:
> > > My only caution would be to make sure that your
> > > hidden switch isn't a
> > > single point of failure. Then you're trusting
> > your
> > > entire ignition
> > > circuit on a $5 toggle switch not failing. In
> > other
> > > words, if the
> > > switch fails "closed" and it grounds out both
> > > magnetos, then you'll
> > > have an engine failure. I can't tell from
> David's
> > > post how he has
> > > his switch wired.
> > >
> > > The simplicity of the two mag switches and a
> > > push-to-start switch is
> > > what makes it so nice. The toggles simply
> > unground
> > > the mag so they
> > > fire. For a total failure to happen, both
> toggles
> > > need to fail in
> > > the "closed", or grounded position at the same
> > time.
> > > Not a likely
> > > scenario.
> > >
> > > BTW, if someone wants to steal your airplane, it
> > > won't be very hard
> > > to do. I think the best way is to lock your
> > canopy.
> > > That way they
> > > have to break it to get in which will
> essentially
> > > ground it.
> > > However, the downside is if they just want to
> > steal
> > > your radios
> > > (probably a more likely scenario), then you're
> > faced
> > > with replacing a
> > > canopy. Yuck. I'm betting that the thief
> doesn't
> > > have a tailwheel
> > > endorsement. :>)
> > >
> > > Randy
> > > --- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > That's the perfect solution - a hidden switch
> > > under
> > > > the dash which you could reach from the seat.
> > You
> > > > might even put in an ignition switch - just a
> > > dummy
> > > > one and never use it - since the hole is
> already
> > > in
> > > > the prepunched dash. heck you might even run
> > some
> > > > dummy wires from the dummy ignition switch
> just
> > to
> > > > confuse anyone trying to hotwire it - not that
> > > that's
> > > > a big problem.
> > > > Thank you much - one less thing for me to
> think
> > > about.
> > > > cliff dow jr
> > > > cdowjr@y...
> > > > Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
> > > > --- davidd010 <david010@s...> wrote:
> > > > > Re "Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems
> like
> > > > > there's got to be some
> > > > > method to prevent just anyone from flying
> off
> > -
> > > like
> > > > > a key?"
> > > > >
> > > > > There is. I have three toggle switches -
> one
> > > for
> > > > > start and one each
> > > > > for the ignition systems - but the start
> > switch
> > > > > won't work unless one
> > > > > other switch is on in addition to the master
> > > switch.
> > > > > (It's so secret
> > > > > even I forget where it is if I'm away from
> the
> > > > > airplane for six
> > > > > weeks.)
> > > > >
> > > > > I've never heard of a toggle switch being
> > moved
> > > by a
> > > > > G load. WWII
> > > > > fighters had no key ignition switch and lots
> > of
> > > > > toggle switches.
> > > > >
> > > > > Key ignition switches are for Cessnas and
> > > Pipers,
> > > > > real airplanes
> > > > > don't have them.
> > > > >
> > > > > dd
=== message truncated ===
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Author: "rv7boy" <rv7boy@...> Time: Thu Jan 17, 2002 3:00 pm PST Link
Cliff,
I think someone said it before in this thread, but HIGHLY RECOMMENDED
READING in regard to aircraft electrical systems is Bob Nuckols's
(sp?) Aero-electric Connection.
Whether you wire your aircraft by his recommendations or not, it
should be required reading for RVators so they will understand what
NOT to do.
My $.02.
BE SAFE!
Don
Author: Clifford Dow <cdowjr@...> Time: Thu Jan 17, 2002 5:17 pm PST Link
Already Ordered!
thx for your comments
cliff dow jr
cdowjr@y...
--- rv7boy <rv7boy@y...> wrote:
>
> Cliff,
>
> I think someone said it before in this thread, but
> HIGHLY RECOMMENDED
> READING in regard to aircraft electrical systems is
> Bob Nuckols's
> (sp?) Aero-electric Connection.
>
> Whether you wire your aircraft by his
> recommendations or not, it
> should be required reading for RVators so they will
> understand what
> NOT to do.
>
> My $.02.
>
> BE SAFE!
>
> Don
__________________________________________________
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Author: "rp10294648" <rpflanze2@...> Time: Fri Jan 18, 2002 6:53 am PST Link
I still stand on my previous advice. Keep it simple, avoid the
hidden switches, and lock the canopy. If they want it, they'll get
it. As you said in your message, all they need to do is spin the
prop and off they go. (And one person can do this in a pinch if they
have to!)
BTW, the flushness will leave your face eventually. We've all sent
inadverdent emails before.
Randy
--- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...> wrote:
>
> January 17, 2002
>
> Randy:
>
> What if the hidden switches were actually two switches
> in parallel (not series). Both off and nothing works.
> Either one or both on and it flies - normally you
> would flip both ON to fly - however, if one failed,
> then the other would do the trick.
>
> In short, the scenario I envision is as follows:
>
> Flip switch #1 UNGROUNDS mag. #1.
> Flip switch #2 UNGROUNDS mag. #2.
> Starter button powers the starter solenoid.
>
> We cannot start the airplane without spinning the
> starter motor – so the wire feed from the starter
> button could just go to two hidden switches run in
> parallel. This way when we have both hidden switches
> off – nothing happens. When we normally fly – we flip
> them both on – so we can spin the starter by pushing
> the starter button. If one failed, the other would do
> the trick. A failure of one button in flight wouldn't
> effect anything anyway. Failure of both switches
> wouldn't affect anything either – that is unless you
> had to restart your motor in flight – an unusual
> event.
>
> And so for this system to fail, we'd have to have both
> switches fail at the same time and then we'd have to
> have your motor quit as well – then we might have a
> mess. The odds of these three things happening all at
> the same time are probably pretty remote.
>
> Of course if someone flips on the mags and has a
> friend up front spin the prop manually – then I guess
> my system would be defeated.
>
> Cliff Dow, Jr.
> Cdowjr@y...
> Maine RV-7A Builder.
> --- rp10294648 <rpflanze2@h...> wrote:
> > My only caution would be to make sure that your
> > hidden switch isn't a
> > single point of failure. Then you're trusting your
> > entire ignition
> > circuit on a $5 toggle switch not failing. In other
> > words, if the
> > switch fails "closed" and it grounds out both
> > magnetos, then you'll
> > have an engine failure. I can't tell from David's
> > post how he has
> > his switch wired.
> >
> > The simplicity of the two mag switches and a
> > push-to-start switch is
> > what makes it so nice. The toggles simply unground
> > the mag so they
> > fire. For a total failure to happen, both toggles
> > need to fail in
> > the "closed", or grounded position at the same time.
> > Not a likely
> > scenario.
> >
> > BTW, if someone wants to steal your airplane, it
> > won't be very hard
> > to do. I think the best way is to lock your canopy.
> > That way they
> > have to break it to get in which will essentially
> > ground it.
> > However, the downside is if they just want to steal
> > your radios
> > (probably a more likely scenario), then you're faced
> > with replacing a
> > canopy. Yuck. I'm betting that the thief doesn't
> > have a tailwheel
> > endorsement. :>)
> >
> > Randy
> > --- In RV7and7A@y..., Clifford Dow <cdowjr@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > That's the perfect solution - a hidden switch
> > under
> > > the dash which you could reach from the seat. You
> > > might even put in an ignition switch - just a
> > dummy
> > > one and never use it - since the hole is already
> > in
> > > the prepunched dash. heck you might even run some
> > > dummy wires from the dummy ignition switch just to
> > > confuse anyone trying to hotwire it - not that
> > that's
> > > a big problem.
> > > Thank you much - one less thing for me to think
> > about.
> > > cliff dow jr
> > > cdowjr@y...
> > > Maine RV-7A QB Builder.
> > > --- davidd010 <david010@s...> wrote:
> > > > Re "Maybe the canopy can be locked? Seems like
> > > > there's got to be some
> > > > method to prevent just anyone from flying off -
> > like
> > > > a key?"
> > > >
> > > > There is. I have three toggle switches - one
> > for
> > > > start and one each
> > > > for the ignition systems - but the start switch
> > > > won't work unless one
> > > > other switch is on in addition to the master
> > switch.
> > > > (It's so secret
> > > > even I forget where it is if I'm away from the
> > > > airplane for six
> > > > weeks.)
> > > >
> > > > I've never heard of a toggle switch being moved
> > by a
> > > > G load. WWII
> > > > fighters had no key ignition switch and lots of
> > > > toggle switches.
> > > >
> > > > Key ignition switches are for Cessnas and
> > Pipers,
> > > > real airplanes
> > > > don't have them.
> > > >
> > > > dd
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
> http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/