Author: "Bud Templin" <budtem@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 7:07 am PDT Link
Hi- just joined. I have the study plans RV7, but not much money at the moment. Am considering scratch building. I am pretty handy, generally. Am I deluded? Would I be better off just saving up to get the kits? or does it make sense to get started now scratch building the empennage? Would appreciate any comments.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: Chris W <chrisw3@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:28 am PDT Link
Bud Templin wrote:
> Hi- just joined. I have the study plans RV7, but not much money at
> the moment. Am considering scratch building. I am pretty handy,
> generally. Am I deluded? Would I be better off just saving up to get
> the kits? or does it make sense to get started now scratch building
> the empennage? Would appreciate any comments.
A friend of mine who is an A&P and is going to help when I get started
wants to scratch build the plane. While I'm sure we could do it, I have
no interest in spending that much time building. I do enjoy building
things but I also hate spending any more time doing something than I
need to. Anyway if money is the issue, if you spent the extra time it
would take to scratch build, making money at a job that paid more than
minimum wage, you would have the money to buy the kit in less time than
it would take you to get a big pile of aluminum to the same stage the
kit comes in. That is of course assuming that you aren't as fast as
computer controlled sheet metal punches and forming machines which I
think is a pretty safe bet :)
--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206
chrisw@p...
N35° 20.492'
W97° 34.342'
"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Author: "Hedrington, Bret" <bhedrington@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:29 am PDT Link
I would not scratch build off the Preview plans...You could off the most current plans (From another builder or Maybe vans would supply)...
But the Empennage is not that much money...and the time involved in cutting and doing 100% from scratch will be HUGE!...
Also the cost of supplies and material will be about the same as the kit...Unless you can get a great deal on materials.
Not to say you CAN'T do it that way...But I think you'd be money/time ahead to get the kit.
Now I'm not going to start the QB vs. Slow build again, but you can go slow build and save quite a chunk of change...But your still looking at about 15-17K for the airframe.
You could build from plans but I doubt you would save very much money and the time will be ahhh...Insane...
Bret
N997RV
-----Original Message-----
From: Bud Templin [mailto:budtem@v...]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:59 AM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] plans build RV7
Hi- just joined. I have the study plans RV7, but not much money at the moment. Am considering scratch building. I am pretty handy, generally. Am I deluded? Would I be better off just saving up to get the kits? or does it make sense to get started now scratch building the empennage? Would appreciate any comments.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:30 am PDT Link
If you don't have the proper tools to be doing this to begin with I can't
imagine that it would save you any money. If you do have the tools I would
use them to earn some money on the side to save up for the kit. You could
get a job mowing lawns on the side to pay the difference in material price
and probably put in fewer hours. Besides it has been mentioned that the
airframe kit is really not large percentage of the cost of the airplane.
The kit is easy to buy compared to that thing that turns the big fan.
Godspeed,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bud Templin" <budtem@v...>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:58 AM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] plans build RV7
> Hi- just joined. I have the study plans RV7, but not much money at the
moment. Am considering scratch building. I am pretty handy, generally. Am I
deluded? Would I be better off just saving up to get the kits? or does it
make sense to get started now scratch building the empennage? Would
appreciate any comments.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Bruce" <wingtime@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 9:34 am PDT Link
Bud,
Welcome to the group!
I agree with the other replies. I think it would cost way more to
build the plane fromt he plans. Not only would it take much more
time to build. You'll spend a boat load of time just trying to
procure the materials. Also the RV-7 plans are missing one critical
item needed to scratch build it. Dimensions. There are no
dimensions, material thickness, grade or templates for any of the
parts. The plans are simply a very good refrence for how the parts
go together.
Now I think the RV-6 plans do have dimnsions but this is just a guess
since I really haven't seen any up close.
Oh, by the way unless you have access to a 12' press brake, the
spars would be almost impossible to make.
I'm building mine using money that I save up while building. When
the time comse for the big ticket items (engine etc.) I'm going to
sell my Cessna.
Good luck!
Bruce Smith
Wings
Author: "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 9:35 am PDT Link
I doubt you'd save much money...and it'll definitely cost you roughly
a 2x increment in time.
If you did save any money, I bet it would be just a couple of
thousand dollars (roughly), which is a very small fraction of the
cost of the completed airplane. If you were VERY frugal, you could
build an RV-7 as follows, in rough numbers:
a) Buy the kit, $16K
b) Buy a mid-time O-320, $10K
c) Buy a fixed-pitch wooden prop, $1K
d) Buy VFR instruments, $2K
e) Buy no radios whatsover
f) Firewall-forward stuff, $2K
Total: $29K. Now, I bet very few if any RV-7s are being built this
frugally...I bet the mean is over $60K...but in any case, saving a
little on the kit won't help much. It'll be at most a 10% savings,
and probably even less.
I was scratch-building a Midget Mustang 1 from plans until my 2nd
child was born. Then I realized I had little use for a single-seater
and stopped.
Having to form every rib and bulkhead takes a lot of time. Making
the forming blocks out of wood or MDF takes a lot of time (it's an
all-metal airplane, but you spend an awful lot of time doing
carpentry!) Buying the material takes a lot of time.
Regards,
Martin
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Bud Templin" <budtem@v...> wrote:
> Hi- just joined. I have the study plans RV7, but not much money at
the moment. Am considering scratch building. I am pretty handy,
generally. Am I deluded? Would I be better off just saving up to get
the kits? or does it make sense to get started now scratch building
the empennage? Would appreciate any comments.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Stephen Reynolds" <stephen.j.reynolds@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:05 am PDT Link
Another thing you may wish to consider even if all the other posts haven't
dissuaded you is resale value, there will be plenty of RV7s around in 10
yrs, what would you rather buy - one made from a CNC kit or a plans built?
Stephen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <wingtime@y...>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 5:19 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: plans build RV7
> Bud,
>
> Welcome to the group!
>
> I agree with the other replies. I think it would cost way more to
> build the plane fromt he plans. Not only would it take much more
> time to build. You'll spend a boat load of time just trying to
> procure the materials. Also the RV-7 plans are missing one critical
> item needed to scratch build it. Dimensions. There are no
> dimensions, material thickness, grade or templates for any of the
> parts. The plans are simply a very good refrence for how the parts
> go together.
>
> Now I think the RV-6 plans do have dimnsions but this is just a guess
> since I really haven't seen any up close.
>
> Oh, by the way unless you have access to a 12' press brake, the
> spars would be almost impossible to make.
>
> I'm building mine using money that I save up while building. When
> the time comse for the big ticket items (engine etc.) I'm going to
> sell my Cessna.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Bruce Smith
> Wings
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)" <hugh@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:06 am PDT Link
In doing my research for the cost of this project, there is one factor that
I did not consider nor see in any article, website or in Vans cost
calculator. I was a do-it-yourselfer on projects around the house. Now I pay
someone to do the work. I have been building approx a year and a half and I
figure I have shelled out roughly $4500 in labor costs for work done to the
house. In my mind this is $4500 dollars that have been added to the bottom
line of the project. Sure I could still do the do-it-yourself work but there
is only so much time in a day and energy in my body. This is the choice I
have made. Just something to consider.
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Gomez [mailto:mlg28@c...]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:32 AM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: plans build RV7
I doubt you'd save much money...and it'll definitely cost you roughly
a 2x increment in time.
If you did save any money, I bet it would be just a couple of
thousand dollars (roughly), which is a very small fraction of the
cost of the completed airplane. If you were VERY frugal, you could
build an RV-7 as follows, in rough numbers:
a) Buy the kit, $16K
b) Buy a mid-time O-320, $10K
c) Buy a fixed-pitch wooden prop, $1K
d) Buy VFR instruments, $2K
e) Buy no radios whatsover
f) Firewall-forward stuff, $2K
Total: $29K. Now, I bet very few if any RV-7s are being built this
frugally...I bet the mean is over $60K...but in any case, saving a
little on the kit won't help much. It'll be at most a 10% savings,
and probably even less.
I was scratch-building a Midget Mustang 1 from plans until my 2nd
child was born. Then I realized I had little use for a single-seater
and stopped.
Having to form every rib and bulkhead takes a lot of time. Making
the forming blocks out of wood or MDF takes a lot of time (it's an
all-metal airplane, but you spend an awful lot of time doing
carpentry!) Buying the material takes a lot of time.
Regards,
Martin
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Bud Templin" <budtem@v...> wrote:
> Hi- just joined. I have the study plans RV7, but not much money at
the moment. Am considering scratch building. I am pretty handy,
generally. Am I deluded? Would I be better off just saving up to get
the kits? or does it make sense to get started now scratch building
the empennage? Would appreciate any comments.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Author: "Mike Raviv" <gmraviv@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:06 am PDT Link
Hi,
The only thing I do not agree with the previous answers is that they
ever so politely did avoid to say "No CAN DO".
There is everything in the answers: that you have no dimensions,
tolerances, material specs, that you have to tool-up almost like
Van's, (the tool set needed to build a kit is around $2000, how much
will cost to tool-up to fabricate it from scratch?), that your
material costs and waste will be huge compared to Van's, etc. etc.
With this in mind I'd already say "impossible", but there is another
thing too. If and when done, you'll call for some inspection and
apply for a C of A.
Now what do you claim: that you built an non-kit (your's will be a
non-kit) aircraft without any plans? And you expect the FAA man to
sign a C of A and let you fly it?
I doubt if that you'll find somebody to do that.
Then there is also a question of infringing on Van's proprietary
rights I guess.
So if you still think of scratch building, you can select a project
designed and engineered accordingly.
Best regards
Mike
70434
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Bud Templin" <budtem@v...> wrote:
> Hi- just joined. I have the study plans RV7, but not much money at
the moment. Am considering scratch building. I am pretty handy,
generally. Am I deluded? Would I be better off just saving up to get
the kits? or does it make sense to get started now scratch building
the empennage? Would appreciate any comments.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 11:07 am PDT Link
Here's a snippet from http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/parts.txt
W-709-L WING LEADING EDGE RIB $15.10
W-709-R WING LEADING EDGE RIB $15.10
W-710-L INBD WING RIB $20.52
W-710-R INBD WING RIB $20.52
W-711-L INBD WING RIB $16.17
W-711-R INBD WING RIB $16.17
W-712-L OUTBOARD WING RIB $17.65
W-712-R OUTBOARD WING RIB $17.65
So basically each rib in the wing costs about $18 on average. Sounds
expensive right off the bat for a piece of .032 aluminum. But think about
it...for about $600 you can purchase all the wing ribs, pre-formed,
pre-flanged, lightening holes cut, nice smooth beads around the holes, etc.
Or...you could spend how many hours building 30+ wing ribs?
Since Van doesn't even publish the dimensions of most of these components,
you're gonna have to buy one here and there to use as a template for
reproduction. So hypothetically, let's say you do that with the wing ribs.
You would need one W-709, one W-710, one W-711, and one W-712. Ok, you've
already spent about $75 plus $10 in shipping and handling. Without the
exact dimensions for these parts you're hosed to some degree and I figure
may as well just buy 'em.
Skins, on the other hand...if you can get 'em cheaper than Van's, by all
means. But look how "cheap" they would be if you bought 'em with all the
holes match-drilled:
W-701-L LEADING EDGE SKIN $73.75
W-701-R LEADING EDGE SKIN $73.75
W-702 UPPER INBD SKIN $49.35
W-703 UPPER OUTBOARD SKIN $60.00
W-704-L LOWER INBOARD SKIN $51.70
W-704-R LOWER INBD SKIN $54.35
W-705-L LOWER OUTBOARD SKIN $63.35
W-705-R LOWER OUTBOARD SKIN $63.35
How much money would you really save by buying raw stock?
Don't let me project my "loose" spending tendencies on your budget, I don't
mean to do that. I just think that the RV-7 is not as efficient (bang for
the buck you'll save) a plans-built aircraft as others out there for many
reasons.
I know a dude around here who built an RV-4 from scrap. But those were the
days when Van published all the numbers...
Whatever floats your boat! 8^)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bud Templin" <budtem@v...>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 9:58 AM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] plans build RV7
> Hi- just joined. I have the study plans RV7, but not much money at the
moment. Am considering scratch building. I am pretty handy, generally. Am I
deluded? Would I be better off just saving up to get the kits? or does it
make sense to get started now scratch building the empennage? Would
appreciate any comments.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:36 pm PDT Link
I think that "opportunity cost" that Hugh mentions is a matter of
personal choice. You chose to have the work done by others rather
than take time off from your RV-7, so you chose to add $4500 to the
cost of the project. Others might simply let their RV project slip a
bit and do the work on the house themselves.
I just finished a part-time Master's degree while working full-time.
When the air conditioning needed fixing, I let my homework slide a
bit, took the hit on my grade point average, and did the repair
myself. That's because my employer was paying for my tuition, but
not for home repair! Again, that was my choice.
That's the beauty of this hobby...you get to decide how much to do.
Even to the extent of building from scratch, if you're so inclined.
By the way, there was an article in EAA Sport Aviation a few years
ago (say, 1999 or so) about a guy who built an RV-6 for $24,000. I
don't think he built from sratch, either. But he bought a runout O-
320 and overhauled it himself, got his paint job from a spray can,
etc.
Regards,
Martin
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)"
<hugh@b...> wrote:
> In doing my research for the cost of this project, there is one
factor that
> I did not consider nor see in any article, website or in Vans cost
> calculator. I was a do-it-yourselfer on projects around the house.
Now I pay
> someone to do the work. I have been building approx a year and a
half and I
> figure I have shelled out roughly $4500 in labor costs for work
done to the
> house. In my mind this is $4500 dollars that have been added to
the bottom
> line of the project. Sure I could still do the do-it-yourself work
but there
> is only so much time in a day and energy in my body. This is the
choice I
> have made. Just something to consider.
>
> Hugh
Author: Chris W <chrisw3@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 2:36 pm PDT Link
Mike Raviv wrote:
> The only thing I do not agree with the previous answers is that they
> ever so politely did avoid to say "No CAN DO".
> There is everything in the answers: that you have no dimensions,
> tolerances, material specs, that you have to tool-up almost like
> Van's, (the tool set needed to build a kit is around $2000, how much
> will cost to tool-up to fabricate it from scratch?), that your
> material costs and waste will be huge compared to Van's, etc. etc.
>
> With this in mind I'd already say "impossible", but there is another
> thing too. If and when done, you'll call for some inspection and
> apply for a C of A.
> Now what do you claim: that you built an non-kit (your's will be a
> non-kit) aircraft without any plans? And you expect the FAA man to
> sign a C of A and let you fly it?
> I doubt if that you'll find somebody to do that.
I certainly agree that it isn't worth the extra effort to scratch build,
and even if you already had access to all the tools needed, you wouldn't
save much money especially if you consider what your time is worth.
However, it is VERY far from "impossible" there are lots of planes that
have been build from only plans that are flying today and had no problem
getting the FAA to sign off on them. I am sure that there is more than
one RV-3, 4 and/or 6 that were scratch built. And I can think of at
least 3 planes that have no kit, the only way to build them is from
plans, and the FAA signs of on them.
--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206
chrisw@p...
N35° 20.492'
W97° 34.342'
"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Author: Robert Miller <rmiller3@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:05 pm PDT Link
"Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)" wrote:
> In doing my research for the cost of this project, there is one
> factor that
> I did not consider nor see in any article, website or in Vans cost
> calculator. I was a do-it-yourselfer on projects around the house. Now
> I pay
> someone to do the work. I have been building approx a year and a half
> and I
> figure I have shelled out roughly $4500 in labor costs for work done
> to the
> house. In my mind this is $4500 dollars that have been added to the
> bottom
> line of the project. Sure I could still do the do-it-yourself work but
> there
> is only so much time in a day and energy in my body. This is the
> choice I
> have made. Just something to consider.
>
> Hugh
There is a third option:
Just let the home repair stuff go.
Most of it will hold, and you get used to things that won't hold very
well.
If there are some things you've ignored that cause your wife to get
frustrated enough, she will do it herself.
Then you criticize it because you could have done it better. :-)
I guess my wife just loves me.
Bob
DO NOT ARCHIVE
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: Rick Crosby <rcrosby1961@...> Time: Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:59 pm PDT Link
Or use this to your advantage another way: refinance the house for a better mortgage rate, cash in some of your equity to finance the home improvement projects(and of course the next kit or two in the project.) This is all done, of course, under the pretense that you are "saving money" on the lower interest rate! Then write off some of your mortgage/RV interest on your taxes.
Rick Crosby
Robert Miller <rmiller3@e...> wrote:
"Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)" wrote:
> In doing my research for the cost of this project, there is one
> factor that
> I did not consider nor see in any article, website or in Vans cost
> calculator. I was a do-it-yourselfer on projects around the house. Now
> I pay
> someone to do the work. I have been building approx a year and a half
> and I
> figure I have shelled out roughly $4500 in labor costs for work done
> to the
> house. In my mind this is $4500 dollars that have been added to the
> bottom
> line of the project. Sure I could still do the do-it-yourself work but
> there
> is only so much time in a day and energy in my body. This is the
> choice I
> have made. Just something to consider.
>
> Hugh
There is a third option:
Just let the home repair stuff go.
Most of it will hold, and you get used to things that won't hold very
well.
If there are some things you've ignored that cause your wife to get
frustrated enough, she will do it herself.
Then you criticize it because you could have done it better. :-)
I guess my wife just loves me.
Bob
DO NOT ARCHIVE
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Mike Raviv" <gmraviv@...> Time: Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:10 am PDT Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, Chris W <chrisw3@c...> wrote:
And I can think of at
> least 3 planes that have no kit, the only way to build them is from
> plans, and the FAA signs of on them.
>
Yes indeed, I can think about planes built from plans too, in fact I
did, as I did recommended to switch to such a project. (read my last
paragraph in my previous)
However, I can't think of a flying aircraft built neither from a kit
nor by plans, which would be the case here. Van's did not release any
PLANS to build a RV-7/7A to the public, just a very good info pack.
While trying to follow the partial information contained in that
pack, you might end up with a quite different airplane. This is still
OK, provided that you realize that, and supliment your actual
building with all the calculations and testing Van's did for his
aircraft. Now will our friend go into that kind of "small details" or
will he go to fly over our heads in a 1800 pound question mark?
Lets agree that building by plans is just that (building BY PLANS)
and not just trying to copy something by geometrical similarity.
Best regards
Mike
Author: Hanno Weigand <hannow@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:11 am PDT Link
I have known several builders that have kept the cost of their project in the $35k range. Basically, by finding a used engine, any skimping on the avionics (basic VFR) - this is rather reasonable.
HW.
Martin Gomez <mlg28@c...> wrote:
I think that "opportunity cost" that Hugh mentions is a matter of
personal choice. You chose to have the work done by others rather
than take time off from your RV-7, so you chose to add $4500 to the
cost of the project. Others might simply let their RV project slip a
bit and do the work on the house themselves.
I just finished a part-time Master's degree while working full-time.
When the air conditioning needed fixing, I let my homework slide a
bit, took the hit on my grade point average, and did the repair
myself. That's because my employer was paying for my tuition, but
not for home repair! Again, that was my choice.
That's the beauty of this hobby...you get to decide how much to do.
Even to the extent of building from scratch, if you're so inclined.
By the way, there was an article in EAA Sport Aviation a few years
ago (say, 1999 or so) about a guy who built an RV-6 for $24,000. I
don't think he built from sratch, either. But he bought a runout O-
320 and overhauled it himself, got his paint job from a spray can,
etc.
Regards,
Martin
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)"
<hugh@b...> wrote:
> In doing my research for the cost of this project, there is one
factor that
> I did not consider nor see in any article, website or in Vans cost
> calculator. I was a do-it-yourselfer on projects around the house.
Now I pay
> someone to do the work. I have been building approx a year and a
half and I
> figure I have shelled out roughly $4500 in labor costs for work
done to the
> house. In my mind this is $4500 dollars that have been added to
the bottom
> line of the project. Sure I could still do the do-it-yourself work
but there
> is only so much time in a day and energy in my body. This is the
choice I
> have made. Just something to consider.
>
> Hugh
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: Martin Gomez <mlg28@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:21 pm PDT Link
Found it! The December 2000 issue of EAA Sport Aviation has the
article I mentioned on the $24000 RV-6.
Martin