Author: "michaeljephcott" <mike.jephcott@...> Time: Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:38 pm PDT Link
As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for my
airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
years of fighter flying! Today I found myself flying the stick with
my right until the traffic pattern when I switched to left on the
stick , right on the throttle - surely I'm not the only one who
finds this unacceptable, perhaps even unnatural?
Anyway, I need a dual throttle system so that the plane can be flown
from either seat in whatever permutation/combinatiopn feels good.
Has anyone out there found a compatible dual throttle system for the
RV7A Subaru combination? Are there electric throttles our there in
GA so that control cables/pulleys etc aren't needed?
Author: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@...> Time: Fri Jun 20, 2003 7:55 pm PDT Link
I'm still convinced that configuring your plane for PIC in the right seat is
the easiest way to accomplish this...throttle-in-left, easy access for both
seats, radios with your left hand, etc.
Of course that's not what I did, but hey... 8^)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (left-handed throttle quadrant)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "michaeljephcott" <mike.jephcott@s...>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 5:20 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
> As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
> before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for my
> airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
> feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
> years of fighter flying! Today I found myself flying the stick with
> my right until the traffic pattern when I switched to left on the
> stick , right on the throttle - surely I'm not the only one who
> finds this unacceptable, perhaps even unnatural?
>
> Anyway, I need a dual throttle system so that the plane can be flown
> from either seat in whatever permutation/combinatiopn feels good.
> Has anyone out there found a compatible dual throttle system for the
> RV7A Subaru combination? Are there electric throttles our there in
> GA so that control cables/pulleys etc aren't needed?
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: Jack Loflin <loflinj@...> Time: Fri Jun 20, 2003 7:55 pm PDT Link
I would go with the standard setup. Throttle/mixture in center, stick to
either side. Trust me, after about 10 hours (forcing yourself to use the
appropriate hand) you will get used to it. I'm a CFI and fly from the right
seat most of the time, unless I'm not with a student, then I switch to the
left. You'll get used to using a different hand after a while.
-Jack
Author: "Wayne Reese" <waynereese@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:08 am PDT Link
There is a retired Maj General in Spanish Fork Utah who put a parallel
throttle on the left side of the cockpit as well as the center of the
panel. I'll see if I can find his e-mail address and send it to you if
you wish.
Wayne
-----Original Message-----
From: michaeljephcott [mailto:mike.jephcott@s...]
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 6:20 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for my
airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
years of fighter flying! Today I found myself flying the stick with
my right until the traffic pattern when I switched to left on the
stick , right on the throttle - surely I'm not the only one who
finds this unacceptable, perhaps even unnatural?
Anyway, I need a dual throttle system so that the plane can be flown
from either seat in whatever permutation/combinatiopn feels good.
Has anyone out there found a compatible dual throttle system for the
RV7A Subaru combination? Are there electric throttles our there in
GA so that control cables/pulleys etc aren't needed?
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Author: "michaeljephcott" <mike.jephcott@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 6:36 am PDT Link
I'm not ready to give up easily on this one and while I have
considered the right-seat PIC option and the "get used to it"
approach there has to be a better way. Modern aircraft
have "throttle by wire" technology using Rotary Variable
Differential Transducers (RVDTs)such that the movement of the
throttle quadrant sends an appropriate voltage equivalent to
throttle quadrant angle to a FADEC. My Subaru engine will have a
FADEC so why not?
If you can find the Major Generals email address I would be most
grateful. I'll also post this on the Eggenfellner group page
(subaruaircraft) and perhaps they'll have some ideas on my electric
throttle idea.
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Reese" <waynereese@q...>
wrote:
> There is a retired Maj General in Spanish Fork Utah who put a
parallel
> throttle on the left side of the cockpit as well as the center of
the
> panel. I'll see if I can find his e-mail address and send it to
you if
> you wish.
> Wayne
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michaeljephcott [mailto:mike.jephcott@s...]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 6:20 PM
> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
>
> As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
> before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for
my
> airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
> feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
> years of fighter flying! Today I found myself flying the stick
with
> my right until the traffic pattern when I switched to left on the
> stick , right on the throttle - surely I'm not the only one who
> finds this unacceptable, perhaps even unnatural?
>
> Anyway, I need a dual throttle system so that the plane can be
flown
> from either seat in whatever permutation/combinatiopn feels good.
> Has anyone out there found a compatible dual throttle system for
the
> RV7A Subaru combination? Are there electric throttles our there
in
> GA so that control cables/pulleys etc aren't needed?
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=244522.3313099.4604523.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1
705
>
340085:HM/A=1595054/R=0/SIG=124km4b11/*http:/ashnin.com/clk/muryutait
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M=244522.3313099.4604523.1261774/D=egrou
> pmail/S=:HM/A=1595054/rand=694840313
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: Tom Coombs <tcoombs@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:11 am PDT Link
I plan on putting dual throttle quadrants in my 7. Personally, I don't like
the compromise and as I am the one doing the building.
Reasoning, a whole bunch of Human factors study and research [way beyond
that of private flying] related to extreme working environments such as
cockpits, large vehicles completed as part of my work..some interesting
studies found that in stressful situations, such as in-flight emergencies,
times of high workload the pilot/driver is much more likely to revert to
actions and behaviors learned during any primary training periods. The
first instincts are often the strongest and come as more of a reaction than
a planned or deliberate action.
TC.
-----Original Message-----
From: michaeljephcott [mailto:mike.jephcott@s...]
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 07:42
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
I'm not ready to give up easily on this one and while I have
considered the right-seat PIC option and the "get used to it"
approach there has to be a better way. Modern aircraft
have "throttle by wire" technology using Rotary Variable
Differential Transducers (RVDTs)such that the movement of the
throttle quadrant sends an appropriate voltage equivalent to
throttle quadrant angle to a FADEC. My Subaru engine will have a
FADEC so why not?
If you can find the Major Generals email address I would be most
grateful. I'll also post this on the Eggenfellner group page
(subaruaircraft) and perhaps they'll have some ideas on my electric
throttle idea.
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Reese" <waynereese@q...>
wrote:
> There is a retired Maj General in Spanish Fork Utah who put a
parallel
> throttle on the left side of the cockpit as well as the center of
the
> panel. I'll see if I can find his e-mail address and send it to
you if
> you wish.
> Wayne
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michaeljephcott [mailto:mike.jephcott@s...]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 6:20 PM
> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
>
> As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
> before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for
my
> airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
> feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
> years of fighter flying! Today I found myself flying the stick
with
> my right until the traffic pattern when I switched to left on the
> stick , right on the throttle - surely I'm not the only one who
> finds this unacceptable, perhaps even unnatural?
>
> Anyway, I need a dual throttle system so that the plane can be
flown
> from either seat in whatever permutation/combinatiopn feels good.
> Has anyone out there found a compatible dual throttle system for
the
> RV7A Subaru combination? Are there electric throttles our there
in
> GA so that control cables/pulleys etc aren't needed?
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=244522.3313099.4604523.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1
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M=244522.3313099.4604523.1261774/D=egrou
> pmail/S=:HM/A=1595054/rand=694840313
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "chunt012001" <mhunt226858MI@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 1:58 pm PDT Link
I fully understand your concern. I went through the same process.
After 10 hours in the Katana, you will be very comfortable with the
right hand thottle. After 100 hours in your RV, you will wonder why
it was ever an issue.
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "michaeljephcott"
<mike.jephcott@s...> wrote:
> As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
> before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for
my
> airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
> feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
> years of fighter flying!
Author: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:21 pm PDT Link
And after 4 seconds of feeling my left-handed throttle quadrant I
wondered why I ever wavered about the decision.
Just trying to stir up the pot a little... 8^)
If you want it, this is your airplane, nobody else's. Among the many
reasons to build your own plane is the ability to do it your way.
I'm not trying to talk you into one way or the other...just making
the point that you shouldn't let anybody talk you out of something
you really have your heart set on. This project is too big to have
any major wish-I's at the end.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "chunt012001" <mhunt226858MI@c...>
wrote:
> I fully understand your concern. I went through the same process.
> After 10 hours in the Katana, you will be very comfortable with the
> right hand thottle. After 100 hours in your RV, you will wonder
why
> it was ever an issue.
> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "michaeljephcott"
> <mike.jephcott@s...> wrote:
> > As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
> > before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for
> my
> > airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
> > feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
> > years of fighter flying!
Author: "Richard & Roberta Hegy" <rhegy@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:21 pm PDT Link
Wow! With all that to be concerned and worried about, it's a wonder we ever got off the ground in the first place. And I was merely going to just relax and fly the plane just as I always have. Thanks for the heads up. I never would have thought about that.
Yikes,
Roberta
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Coombs
To: 'RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com'
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
I plan on putting dual throttle quadrants in my 7. Personally, I don't like
the compromise and as I am the one doing the building.
Reasoning, a whole bunch of Human factors study and research [way beyond
that of private flying] related to extreme working environments such as
cockpits, large vehicles completed as part of my work..some interesting
studies found that in stressful situations, such as in-flight emergencies,
times of high workload the pilot/driver is much more likely to revert to
actions and behaviors learned during any primary training periods. The
first instincts are often the strongest and come as more of a reaction than
a planned or deliberate action.
TC.
-----Original Message-----
From: michaeljephcott [mailto:mike.jephcott@s...]
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 07:42
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
I'm not ready to give up easily on this one and while I have
considered the right-seat PIC option and the "get used to it"
approach there has to be a better way. Modern aircraft
have "throttle by wire" technology using Rotary Variable
Differential Transducers (RVDTs)such that the movement of the
throttle quadrant sends an appropriate voltage equivalent to
throttle quadrant angle to a FADEC. My Subaru engine will have a
FADEC so why not?
If you can find the Major Generals email address I would be most
grateful. I'll also post this on the Eggenfellner group page
(subaruaircraft) and perhaps they'll have some ideas on my electric
throttle idea.
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Reese" <waynereese@q...>
wrote:
> There is a retired Maj General in Spanish Fork Utah who put a
parallel
> throttle on the left side of the cockpit as well as the center of
the
> panel. I'll see if I can find his e-mail address and send it to
you if
> you wish.
> Wayne
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michaeljephcott [mailto:mike.jephcott@s...]
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 6:20 PM
> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
>
> As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
> before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for
my
> airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
> feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
> years of fighter flying! Today I found myself flying the stick
with
> my right until the traffic pattern when I switched to left on the
> stick , right on the throttle - surely I'm not the only one who
> finds this unacceptable, perhaps even unnatural?
>
> Anyway, I need a dual throttle system so that the plane can be
flown
> from either seat in whatever permutation/combinatiopn feels good.
> Has anyone out there found a compatible dual throttle system for
the
> RV7A Subaru combination? Are there electric throttles our there
in
> GA so that control cables/pulleys etc aren't needed?
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=244522.3313099.4604523.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=244522.3313099.4604523.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1>
705
>
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ake
> nattogyo?YH=3313099&yhad=1595054> Click Here!
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M=244522.3313099.4604523.1261774/D=egrou
> pmail/S=:HM/A=1595054/rand=694840313
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> >
Terms of Service.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: "David Domeier" <davidd010@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:21 pm PDT Link
re "I fully understand your concern. I went through the same
process. After 10 hours in the Katana, you will be very
comfortable with the right hand thottle. After 100 hours in your
RV, you will wonder why it was ever an issue."
Ditto on all that. Many a fighter pilot has gone with an airline and
flown with his left hand and moved the power levers with the right
the rest of his life.
The issue is a monumental non event.
dd
RV7A
Subaru
Author: Martin Gomez <mlg28@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:21 pm PDT Link
You might want to give yourself a little time to get used to it. I
never flew fighters, but after a hundred hours of Citabrias and Cubs
(stick in right hand, throttle in left), I flew a Katana. I got used
to it on the second flight. Not only is this how almost all GA
airplanes are flown (since they have yokes and the throttle is in the
center) but I found, being right-handed, that in right-hand-on-stick
airplanes I found it hard to write on my kneepad. Since I want to be
able to fly IFR, fly X-C, etc. it's important to me to be able to write.
So I'll build mine per the drawings, and keep my right hand free to
write, tune radios, etc.
As for electric throttles, I've never heard of any GA airplane,
certificated or experimental, to use that scheme.
----------------------------------------
Martin Gomez
mlg28@c...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: Martin Gomez <mlg28@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:21 pm PDT Link
On Saturday, June 21, 2003, at 07:42 AM, michaeljephcott wrote:
> My Subaru engine will have a
> FADEC so why not?
Because the Subaru ECU just senses the airflow and adjust the fuel flow
(i.e. injector pulse width) accordingly. The Subaru ECU does not have
an input for a "throttle request", nor an output to drive a throttle
actuator, nor software to link the two.
You can do this yourself, of course, but I don't think it's a built-in
part of the Eggenfellner or NSI engine package.
Regards,
Martin
----------------------------------------
Martin Gomez
mlg28@c...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: Martin Gomez <mlg28@...> Time: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:21 pm PDT Link
On Saturday, June 21, 2003, at 10:02 AM, Tom Coombs wrote:
> snip...times of high workload the pilot/driver is much more likely to
> revert to
> actions and behaviors learned during any primary training
> periods...snip
Interesting study. One more datapoint: I learned to fly (through my
1st solo) in a C-152, then moved to a Cub for the rest of my Private,
then moved back to C172/Cherokee spamcans, then back to Citabrias and
Decathlons and Champs, then back to spamcans, then to a Katana. In
other words, all three commonly used combinations: yoke in left hand,
stick in right, stick in left. And on the few occasions in which I
flew from the right seat, yoke in right hand. Very easy transitions.
I never spent even a few seconds wondering which hand controlled pitch
and which hand controlled throttle...and I am not exactly God's gift to
aviation. Anyone who has gone through Uncle Sam's training can
probably adapt even faster than I.
Do what you like, of course...far be it from me to impose my views on
anyone else's airplane! I'm just suggesting that the transitions
aren't as big a compromise as they might at first appear.
Regards,
Martin
----------------------------------------
Martin Gomez
mlg28@c...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@...> Time: Sun Jun 22, 2003 12:59 pm PDT Link
I thought about this too when I started building. I have since abandoned
the idea mainly for weight concerns but the idea that I had was pretty
simple. Imagine a torque tube similar to the one that works the flaps on
the RV7/A. Now put it under the panel on the bottom of the two outboard
fuselage ribs. You might be able to attach it to the longerons in some way
as well. In the middle of the torque tube is the lever that pushes and pulls
a normal throttle quadrant cable that runs out to the engine. On each end
are the levers that you attach to your quadrant with either a much shorter
cable or a push tube / rod-end bearing arrangement.
Godspeed,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "michaeljephcott" <mike.jephcott@s...>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:20 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
> As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
> before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for my
> airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
> feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
> years of fighter flying! Today I found myself flying the stick with
> my right until the traffic pattern when I switched to left on the
> stick , right on the throttle - surely I'm not the only one who
> finds this unacceptable, perhaps even unnatural?
>
> Anyway, I need a dual throttle system so that the plane can be flown
> from either seat in whatever permutation/combinatiopn feels good.
> Has anyone out there found a compatible dual throttle system for the
> RV7A Subaru combination? Are there electric throttles our there in
> GA so that control cables/pulleys etc aren't needed?
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Richard & Roberta Hegy" <rhegy@...> Time: Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:03 pm PDT Link
Zenair uses a dual throttle system on some of their planes, using a central stick control, like the CH701. They have a construction web site that may show how they accomplish that. But they are limited to just throttle control, as the Rotax doesn't need Mixture and most 701's are fixed pitch. Needing those extra elements does complicate things a bit.
Roberta
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Birkelbach
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
I thought about this too when I started building. I have since abandoned
the idea mainly for weight concerns but the idea that I had was pretty
simple. Imagine a torque tube similar to the one that works the flaps on
the RV7/A. Now put it under the panel on the bottom of the two outboard
fuselage ribs. You might be able to attach it to the longerons in some way
as well. In the middle of the torque tube is the lever that pushes and pulls
a normal throttle quadrant cable that runs out to the engine. On each end
are the levers that you attach to your quadrant with either a much shorter
cable or a push tube / rod-end bearing arrangement.
Godspeed,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "michaeljephcott" <mike.jephcott@s...>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:20 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
> As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
> before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for my
> airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
> feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
> years of fighter flying! Today I found myself flying the stick with
> my right until the traffic pattern when I switched to left on the
> stick , right on the throttle - surely I'm not the only one who
> finds this unacceptable, perhaps even unnatural?
>
> Anyway, I need a dual throttle system so that the plane can be flown
> from either seat in whatever permutation/combinatiopn feels good.
> Has anyone out there found a compatible dual throttle system for the
> RV7A Subaru combination? Are there electric throttles our there in
> GA so that control cables/pulleys etc aren't needed?
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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Author: "Hedrington, Bret" <bhedrington@...> Time: Mon Jun 23, 2003 6:43 am PDT Link
Check out
http://www.infinityaerospace.com/
They have some new Throttle Quadrants coming out...That have dual slaved controls...Also their Stick grips are also real cool...
Their goal is to have a full HOTAS system for GA...looks good...And I've flown their grips in a plane before and they are good...Not quite like MIL-Spec but close..
Bret
N997RV
-----Original Message-----
From: michaeljephcott [mailto:mike.jephcott@s...]
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 7:20 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Dual Throttles
As an RV7A builder never having flown a stick/right hand throttle
before today (Katana), I am concerned about this arrangement for my
airplane. I feel the need to have my right hand on the stick but
feel uncomfortable about not "guarding" the throttle - too many
years of fighter flying! Today I found myself flying the stick with
my right until the traffic pattern when I switched to left on the
stick , right on the throttle - surely I'm not the only one who
finds this unacceptable, perhaps even unnatural?
Anyway, I need a dual throttle system so that the plane can be flown
from either seat in whatever permutation/combinatiopn feels good.
Has anyone out there found a compatible dual throttle system for the
RV7A Subaru combination? Are there electric throttles our there in
GA so that control cables/pulleys etc aren't needed?
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