Author: "Kevin" <onesickpup@...> Time: Sun Feb 1, 2004 12:34 pm PST Link
A while back I was criticized for my opinion on my view of insurance.
I cannot remember who made the "made up" scenario of him sitting in
his plane, and a crosswind blew my plane into his. He was disabled,
and it was my moral obligation to support him and his family for
life. In the Feb. 04 AOPA PILOT magazine, on page 124, is the very
exact reason I hate insurance company's, and the reason I carry only
the minimum insurance required by law. For those who do not recieve
AOPA PILOT, The bottom line is this... A person paid ins. on his
airplane, crashed into a person's property, injured the owner, and
after battling in court, found out he was not insured because of a
loophole in the ins. co's policy(due to a annual inspection that was
not done even tho' he thought it had been done). Now, with that being
the case, I am insured, A strong crosswind blows my plane into yours,
while you are sitting in it, disabling you for life, but my ins. co.
won't pay, now who is going to support you and your family??? Where
am I wrong here???? Why am I paying for insurance, if you and I are
not covered??? I am not angry. I don't want to start a war. I am
very "Happy-Go-Lucky". It's just that I have been screwed too many
times by ins. co's. No need to flame, unless you really want to..
Sincerely!!!
Kevin H.
Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Sun Feb 1, 2004 12:51 pm PST Link
property, injured the owner, and
> after battling in court, found out he was not insured because of a
> loophole in the ins. co's policy(due to a annual inspection that
was
> not done even tho' he thought it had been done). Now, with that
being
I read the same thing only I had a different opinon as I was
reading. I kept thinking the pilot was an idiot and he was also
trying to win his appeal based on his own stupidity.
It wasn't a loophole, it was a condition of inusrance. It's a
contract. The insurance company says "we'll cover you, you keep your
airplane legal and airworthy."
The guy can't legitimately complain. Why? Because he took the same
ground school and FAA tests that the rest of us did. And we were
beaten over...and over....and over...and over again. It is the PILOT
who is responsible for making sure hnis plane is airworthy.
They even use examples in training of negligence in logkeeping by
the AP. And they stressed...it didn't matter....because it's the
pilot's responsibility, not he AP. All the guy had to do was take 5
minutes to pick up the logbooks and review the work tht had been
done. That's all he had to do.
The guy dropped his plane off and thought he told the guy to do an
annual...but after the accident he couldn't remember. The point is:
it doesn't matter. After an annual...or any other time, it's the
pilot's responsiblitiy to check the maintenance logs to see that the
aircraft was airworthy and that the required paperwork was in order.
It's the pilot's responsibility to make sure the aircraft is legal
to fly.
If I recall the article correctly -- and I do because I have it in
front oe me.-- the pilot NEVER PICKED UP THE LOGBOOK THAT WOULD HAVE
SHOWN THE CEROKEE WAS OUT OF ANNUAL.
And it's also important to note that because the annual was due, and
not done....it was illegal to fly the plane.
I don't blame the insurance company a bit. Suppose the guy was
overdue for his BFR, suppose his medical has expired. Of course the
inusrance company wouldn't pay.
And it's not like the company didn't tell him that. It's right
there in the contract, if he'd bother to look...just as it was right
there in the logbooks if he bothered to look.
So it was no surprise to me that the guy lost power and crashed
short of the runway. If he's this lazy and stupid in meeting the
very specific requirements of flying a plane before he leaves the
ground...he's probably just as stupid when it comes to managing his
fuel load. Especially since the first item on the checklist is
A.R.R.O.W...which would have alerted him to the fact he didn't hve
the proper paperwork which would have alerted him the aircraft
hadn't had an annual done. So I shouldn't be surprised that the item
on the checklist that says "checkfuel" probably wasn't done either.
Bad pilot who should stop looking for someone else to blame for his
problems, imho.
Author: Alan Wallace <iflyc205@...> Time: Sun Feb 1, 2004 2:47 pm PST Link
Bob,
I couldn't agree with you more, we are privileged to be able to fly and should hold ourselves to a higher standard then the idiot's that are out there are on the highway without Insurance. If a pilot is not dedicated enough to keep up with the basics, (paper work etc.) then he should not be flying at all.
I find that 99% of the time the Insurance Companies do pay there claims, my son hit his head skiing last year and had to be media-flighted to the hospital. The bill was over $100K and the Insurance paid almost all of it. He is an Instrument rated pilot at 20 yrs old and only suffered a serious concussion in the ski accident.
I carry higher then required liability Insurance, (1,000,000.) on my airplane and everything else I own, I have worked to hard all my life to lose it all because I did not carry enough insurance.
Alan Wallace
RV-7A QB (kit arrived 1-23-04)
Bob Collins <bcollins@m...> wrote:
property, injured the owner, and
> after battling in court, found out he was not insured because of a
> loophole in the ins. co's policy(due to a annual inspection that
was
> not done even tho' he thought it had been done). Now, with that
being
I read the same thing only I had a different opinon as I was
reading. I kept thinking the pilot was an idiot and he was also
trying to win his appeal based on his own stupidity.
It wasn't a loophole, it was a condition of inusrance. It's a
contract. The insurance company says "we'll cover you, you keep your
airplane legal and airworthy."
The guy can't legitimately complain. Why? Because he took the same
ground school and FAA tests that the rest of us did. And we were
beaten over...and over....and over...and over again. It is the PILOT
who is responsible for making sure hnis plane is airworthy.
They even use examples in training of negligence in logkeeping by
the AP. And they stressed...it didn't matter....because it's the
pilot's responsibility, not he AP. All the guy had to do was take 5
minutes to pick up the logbooks and review the work tht had been
done. That's all he had to do.
The guy dropped his plane off and thought he told the guy to do an
annual...but after the accident he couldn't remember. The point is:
it doesn't matter. After an annual...or any other time, it's the
pilot's responsiblitiy to check the maintenance logs to see that the
aircraft was airworthy and that the required paperwork was in order.
It's the pilot's responsibility to make sure the aircraft is legal
to fly.
If I recall the article correctly -- and I do because I have it in
front oe me.-- the pilot NEVER PICKED UP THE LOGBOOK THAT WOULD HAVE
SHOWN THE CEROKEE WAS OUT OF ANNUAL.
And it's also important to note that because the annual was due, and
not done....it was illegal to fly the plane.
I don't blame the insurance company a bit. Suppose the guy was
overdue for his BFR, suppose his medical has expired. Of course the
inusrance company wouldn't pay.
And it's not like the company didn't tell him that. It's right
there in the contract, if he'd bother to look...just as it was right
there in the logbooks if he bothered to look.
So it was no surprise to me that the guy lost power and crashed
short of the runway. If he's this lazy and stupid in meeting the
very specific requirements of flying a plane before he leaves the
ground...he's probably just as stupid when it comes to managing his
fuel load. Especially since the first item on the checklist is
A.R.R.O.W...which would have alerted him to the fact he didn't hve
the proper paperwork which would have alerted him the aircraft
hadn't had an annual done. So I shouldn't be surprised that the item
on the checklist that says "checkfuel" probably wasn't done either.
Bad pilot who should stop looking for someone else to blame for his
problems, imho.
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Jon Baker" <jon@...> Time: Sun Feb 1, 2004 4:36 pm PST Link
You pays your money and you takes your chances. If your insurance
man is a crook, his contract won't be any good either.
Fortuanately, there seem to be an amazingly few crooks in the
aviation insurance business. I buy the insurance.
One comment, though. I get real tired of hearing about how flying
is a "priviledge". The first step in losing a right is to let
someone convince you that it's a "privilege".
Our government doesn't grant rights or priviledges. We the people
grant our government powers -- not rights. Read your constitution.
Flying is as much a right as walking down the street. And the fact
that, for the public good, we have chosen to allow the government to
regulate an activity does not imply that we the people have forfeit
the right.
Amendment # 10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by
the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved
to the states respectively, or to the people."
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, Alan Wallace <iflyc205@y...> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I couldn't agree with you more, we are privileged to be able to
fly and should hold ourselves to a higher standard then the idiot's
that are out there are on the highway without Insurance. If a pilot
is not dedicated enough to keep up with the basics, (paper work
etc.) then he should not be flying at all.
>
> I find that 99% of the time the Insurance Companies do pay there
claims, my son hit his head skiing last year and had to be media-
flighted to the hospital. The bill was over $100K and the Insurance
paid almost all of it. He is an Instrument rated pilot at 20 yrs old
and only suffered a serious concussion in the ski accident.
>
> I carry higher then required liability Insurance, (1,000,000.) on
my airplane and everything else I own, I have worked to hard all my
life to lose it all because I did not carry enough insurance.
>
> Alan Wallace
> RV-7A QB (kit arrived 1-23-04)
>
> Bob Collins <bcollins@m...> wrote:
> property, injured the owner, and
> > after battling in court, found out he was not insured because of
a
> > loophole in the ins. co's policy(due to a annual inspection that
> was
> > not done even tho' he thought it had been done). Now, with that
> being
> I read the same thing only I had a different opinon as I was
> reading. I kept thinking the pilot was an idiot and he was also
> trying to win his appeal based on his own stupidity.
>
> It wasn't a loophole, it was a condition of inusrance. It's a
> contract. The insurance company says "we'll cover you, you keep
your
> airplane legal and airworthy."
>
> The guy can't legitimately complain. Why? Because he took the same
> ground school and FAA tests that the rest of us did. And we were
> beaten over...and over....and over...and over again. It is the
PILOT
> who is responsible for making sure hnis plane is airworthy.
>
> They even use examples in training of negligence in logkeeping by
> the AP. And they stressed...it didn't matter....because it's the
> pilot's responsibility, not he AP. All the guy had to do was take
5
> minutes to pick up the logbooks and review the work tht had been
> done. That's all he had to do.
>
> The guy dropped his plane off and thought he told the guy to do an
> annual...but after the accident he couldn't remember. The point
is:
> it doesn't matter. After an annual...or any other time, it's the
> pilot's responsiblitiy to check the maintenance logs to see that
the
> aircraft was airworthy and that the required paperwork was in
order.
> It's the pilot's responsibility to make sure the aircraft is legal
> to fly.
>
> If I recall the article correctly -- and I do because I have it in
> front oe me.-- the pilot NEVER PICKED UP THE LOGBOOK THAT WOULD
HAVE
> SHOWN THE CEROKEE WAS OUT OF ANNUAL.
>
> And it's also important to note that because the annual was due,
and
> not done....it was illegal to fly the plane.
>
> I don't blame the insurance company a bit. Suppose the guy was
> overdue for his BFR, suppose his medical has expired. Of course
the
> inusrance company wouldn't pay.
>
> And it's not like the company didn't tell him that. It's right
> there in the contract, if he'd bother to look...just as it was
right
> there in the logbooks if he bothered to look.
>
> So it was no surprise to me that the guy lost power and crashed
> short of the runway. If he's this lazy and stupid in meeting the
> very specific requirements of flying a plane before he leaves the
> ground...he's probably just as stupid when it comes to managing
his
> fuel load. Especially since the first item on the checklist is
> A.R.R.O.W...which would have alerted him to the fact he didn't hve
> the proper paperwork which would have alerted him the aircraft
> hadn't had an annual done. So I shouldn't be surprised that the
item
> on the checklist that says "checkfuel" probably wasn't done either.
>
> Bad pilot who should stop looking for someone else to blame for
his
> problems, imho.
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7and7A/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> RV7and7A-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> ---------------------------------
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> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Kevin H." <onesickpup@...> Time: Sun Feb 1, 2004 7:50 pm PST Link
#1 AMEN!!!!! To the "PRIVILEDGE" comment Jon.... flying, driving, walking down the street, breathing....
#2... I have never sat down and read the fine print in any of my insurance policy's... I am fairly intelligent, and I tell ya what, That fine print makes my head spin... that's why they spend so much on legal attorneys to write that crap! So, next time your brakes fail in your car, and you hit someone, I hope you do not have an exclusion for operating an unsafe vehicle Bob! It is the responsibility of the vehicle operator to make sure your car is safe to drive! Ever done a "pre-drive" inspection??? YEAH RIGHT!!
#3 Just because the aircraft was out of annual, and the pilot switched to the empty tank (maybe) and no problems were found with the aircraft, why would you not be covered... No problems were found with the aircraft!!!!!! Does everyone really look at the logbooks at their trusted FBO every time they take their favorite rental plane up???? Does an ink pen entry in a paper book ensure the aircraft will not crash??? If you knew the pencil (or pen) whipping that often occurs at some FBO's to keep the profit's up on rental planes during hard times, you would $hit!!!! (Or laugh as I do!!!) Last time I took my favorite trainer up, I was lucky to have inop covers on inop guages!! I just laughed!!!
My point is... there is no reason that if you pay for insurance, and do not have it for whatever reason, why have it... Everybody break out their $1,000,000 policies, and read the fine print....
P.S. In my homeowners fineprint, nowhere did I see that if water came thru my roof, and smoked my computer, you had to be able to look thru a hole and see the sky for the computer to be covered. Since the water backed up under an ice damn, and entered thru the cieling, the structure was covered, but the computer was not... a(nother) $6,000 lesson for me!!!! :) Still smiling after all these screwings!!! :)
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Baker
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 5:35 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Insurance
You pays your money and you takes your chances. If your insurance
man is a crook, his contract won't be any good either.
Fortuanately, there seem to be an amazingly few crooks in the
aviation insurance business. I buy the insurance.
One comment, though. I get real tired of hearing about how flying
is a "priviledge". The first step in losing a right is to let
someone convince you that it's a "privilege".
Our government doesn't grant rights or priviledges. We the people
grant our government powers -- not rights. Read your constitution.
Flying is as much a right as walking down the street. And the fact
that, for the public good, we have chosen to allow the government to
regulate an activity does not imply that we the people have forfeit
the right.
Amendment # 10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by
the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved
to the states respectively, or to the people."
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, Alan Wallace <iflyc205@y...> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I couldn't agree with you more, we are privileged to be able to
fly and should hold ourselves to a higher standard then the idiot's
that are out there are on the highway without Insurance. If a pilot
is not dedicated enough to keep up with the basics, (paper work
etc.) then he should not be flying at all.
>
> I find that 99% of the time the Insurance Companies do pay there
claims, my son hit his head skiing last year and had to be media-
flighted to the hospital. The bill was over $100K and the Insurance
paid almost all of it. He is an Instrument rated pilot at 20 yrs old
and only suffered a serious concussion in the ski accident.
>
> I carry higher then required liability Insurance, (1,000,000.) on
my airplane and everything else I own, I have worked to hard all my
life to lose it all because I did not carry enough insurance.
>
> Alan Wallace
> RV-7A QB (kit arrived 1-23-04)
>
> Bob Collins <bcollins@m...> wrote:
> property, injured the owner, and
> > after battling in court, found out he was not insured because of
a
> > loophole in the ins. co's policy(due to a annual inspection that
> was
> > not done even tho' he thought it had been done). Now, with that
> being
> I read the same thing only I had a different opinon as I was
> reading. I kept thinking the pilot was an idiot and he was also
> trying to win his appeal based on his own stupidity.
>
> It wasn't a loophole, it was a condition of inusrance. It's a
> contract. The insurance company says "we'll cover you, you keep
your
> airplane legal and airworthy."
>
> The guy can't legitimately complain. Why? Because he took the same
> ground school and FAA tests that the rest of us did. And we were
> beaten over...and over....and over...and over again. It is the
PILOT
> who is responsible for making sure hnis plane is airworthy.
>
> They even use examples in training of negligence in logkeeping by
> the AP. And they stressed...it didn't matter....because it's the
> pilot's responsibility, not he AP. All the guy had to do was take
5
> minutes to pick up the logbooks and review the work tht had been
> done. That's all he had to do.
>
> The guy dropped his plane off and thought he told the guy to do an
> annual...but after the accident he couldn't remember. The point
is:
> it doesn't matter. After an annual...or any other time, it's the
> pilot's responsiblitiy to check the maintenance logs to see that
the
> aircraft was airworthy and that the required paperwork was in
order.
> It's the pilot's responsibility to make sure the aircraft is legal
> to fly.
>
> If I recall the article correctly -- and I do because I have it in
> front oe me.-- the pilot NEVER PICKED UP THE LOGBOOK THAT WOULD
HAVE
> SHOWN THE CEROKEE WAS OUT OF ANNUAL.
>
> And it's also important to note that because the annual was due,
and
> not done....it was illegal to fly the plane.
>
> I don't blame the insurance company a bit. Suppose the guy was
> overdue for his BFR, suppose his medical has expired. Of course
the
> inusrance company wouldn't pay.
>
> And it's not like the company didn't tell him that. It's right
> there in the contract, if he'd bother to look...just as it was
right
> there in the logbooks if he bothered to look.
>
> So it was no surprise to me that the guy lost power and crashed
> short of the runway. If he's this lazy and stupid in meeting the
> very specific requirements of flying a plane before he leaves the
> ground...he's probably just as stupid when it comes to managing
his
> fuel load. Especially since the first item on the checklist is
> A.R.R.O.W...which would have alerted him to the fact he didn't hve
> the proper paperwork which would have alerted him the aircraft
> hadn't had an annual done. So I shouldn't be surprised that the
item
> on the checklist that says "checkfuel" probably wasn't done either.
>
> Bad pilot who should stop looking for someone else to blame for
his
> problems, imho.
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7and7A/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> RV7and7A-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "william ferree" <wmferree@...> Time: Mon Feb 2, 2004 3:27 am PST Link
Gosh this is getting awfully political! However, I have to agree with you. Now tell me about your airplane. I'm wrestling with the decision of whether to use a conventional Lyc/clone or the hot-rod Subaru. Sure would like to hear some pros and cons.
Bill 7QB, emp almost finished
From: Jon Baker
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 6:35 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Insurance
You pays your money and you takes your chances. If your insurance
man is a crook, his contract won't be any good either.
Fortuanately, there seem to be an amazingly few crooks in the
aviation insurance business. I buy the insurance.
One comment, though. I get real tired of hearing about how flying
is a "priviledge". The first step in losing a right is to let
someone convince you that it's a "privilege".
Our government doesn't grant rights or priviledges. We the people
grant our government powers -- not rights. Read your constitution.
Flying is as much a right as walking down the street. And the fact
that, for the public good, we have chosen to allow the government to
regulate an activity does not imply that we the people have forfeit
the right.
Amendment # 10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by
the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved
to the states respectively, or to the people."
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7and7A/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV7and7A-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Tom Coombs" <rv@...> Time: Mon Feb 2, 2004 3:27 am PST Link
I invented the scenario and I still maintain it's validity. It's incredibly
unfortunately that it got played out in real life.
I trust this "irresponsible individual" who didn't do the right thing by
making sure his airplane and documentation were in order, will live up to
his obligations and provide for the unfortunate chap who got injured.
Perhaps if you have such issues with insurance companies and their
requirements, you should just give up any activities that require any such
responsible action as getting appropriate insurance.
TC.
_____
From: Kevin [mailto:onesickpup@e...]
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2004 3:25 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Insurance
A while back I was criticized for my opinion on my view of insurance.
I cannot remember who made the "made up" scenario of him sitting in
his plane, and a crosswind blew my plane into his. He was disabled,
and it was my moral obligation to support him and his family for
life. In the Feb. 04 AOPA PILOT magazine, on page 124, is the very
exact reason I hate insurance company's, and the reason I carry only
the minimum insurance required by law. For those who do not recieve
AOPA PILOT, The bottom line is this... A person paid ins. on his
airplane, crashed into a person's property, injured the owner, and
after battling in court, found out he was not insured because of a
loophole in the ins. co's policy(due to a annual inspection that was
not done even tho' he thought it had been done). Now, with that being
the case, I am insured, A strong crosswind blows my plane into yours,
while you are sitting in it, disabling you for life, but my ins. co.
won't pay, now who is going to support you and your family??? Where
am I wrong here???? Why am I paying for insurance, if you and I are
not covered??? I am not angry. I don't want to start a war. I am
very "Happy-Go-Lucky". It's just that I have been screwed too many
times by ins. co's. No need to flame, unless you really want to..
Sincerely!!!
Kevin H.
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Mon Feb 2, 2004 10:31 am PST Link
>#3 Just because the aircraft was out of annual, and the pilot
switched to the
empty tank (maybe) and no problems were found with the aircraft, why
would you
not be covered... No problems were found with the aircraft!!!!!!
Well, yeah, except for the fact it landed in somebody's house.
>Does everyone
really look at the logbooks at their trusted FBO every time they take
their
favorite rental plane up???? Does an ink pen entry in a paper book
ensure the
aircraft will not crash???
Are you a pilot, Kevin? If you are, and you don't want to die..>I
suggest you DO look at the logbooks before you take your favorite
plane up, you want to know what the squawks are befor eyou get in the
air.
Let me put it to you this way. When you take your plane out...do you
run up the engine? Do you run through the checklist to see if
there's, say, a leak in the engine compartment, fuel in the
tank....brakes work. Presumably you do, but why? Because you want to
take as many precautions as possible so you're not surprised in the
air. That's what good pilots do.
Logbooks and paperwork aren't just logbooks and paperwork...they're
part of the information your plane gives you before you push that
throttle forward and start rolling.
>My point is... there is no reason that if you pay for insurance, and
do not have
it for whatever reason, why have it... Everybody break out their
$1,000,000
policies, and read the fine print....
As with any contract, if you sign it before knowing what it says, you
deserve whatever befalls you. Claiming you were too busy to know what
you were signing, doesn't shift the responsibility from you to
someone else.
And, just for the record, let's keep in mind who pays. Insurance is
nothing more than a risk pool, and guess who's in the pool with you.
You, me, and everyone else who owns aircraft insurance.
So I don't think it's asking too much for pilots to do a decent run
through the checklist before expecting me to help cover them.
>P.S. In my homeowners fineprint, nowhere did I see that if water
came thru my
roof, and smoked my computer, you had to be able to look thru a hole
and see the
sky for the computer to be covered. Since the water backed up under
an ice damn,
and entered thru the cieling, the structure was covered, but the
computer was
not... a(nother) $6,000 lesson for me!!!! :) Still smiling after all
these
screwings!!! :)
Check under "Acts of God." It's there.
BC