Author: "maxvogelman" <mvogelman@...> Time: Fri Feb 6, 2004 3:25 am PST Link
me and my dad have been discussing options for the rv-7
what we want to build is a 7a with a subaru dual cam w/suprcharger
engine and a bluemountain efis ONE.
we are worried though that if it comes down to selling it that it
could be realy hard to sell. so what we want to know is how many
people are out there would like this kind of airplane and the resale
ability of this aircraft, with good workmanship of course.
what do you think?
Author: "Xavier" <fatesclown@...> Time: Fri Feb 6, 2004 6:14 am PST Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxvogelman" <mvogelman@h...>
wrote:
> me and my dad have been discussing options for the rv-7
>
> what we want to build is a 7a with a subaru dual cam w/suprcharger
> engine and a bluemountain efis ONE.
>
> we are worried though that if it comes down to selling it that it
> could be realy hard to sell. so what we want to know is how many
> people are out there would like this kind of airplane and the
resale
> ability of this aircraft, with good workmanship of course.
>
> what do you think?
I've seen quite a few posts regarding this topic. Try searching
the Matronics list for "resale" and you'll get plenty of returns.
I chose to start a RV7 because I'm the builder. The finished
project will be exactly what I want. If/When I ever do sell it, I
will never recoup my blood, sweat, and tears.
Build the airplane to fit you. If you decide to sell it, you'll
find a buyer somewhere.
Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Fri Feb 6, 2004 10:13 am PST Link
Fact is homebuilts seldom sell for more than the sum of its parts.
Avionics don't sell very well either as they push your product into
an even smaller group of buyers (electronics historically don't
recoup their value). Craftsmanship is so subjective it can't
seriously be quantified in dollar terms.
If resale (and liquidity) is a concern I would stick to Van's plans
and install a Lycoming engine as he recommends. Autoconversions
don't do very well in resale because the buyer can't do the
maintenance and will need an A&P. In essence, I would build it per
Van's plans, with little mods, and stick to a conventional engine
configuration and panel.
The only two people I know that bough pre-owned RV-6's bought them
for less than what they cost to build.
Jose
Author: "Cary Rhodes" <rhodeseng@...> Time: Fri Feb 6, 2004 2:02 pm PST Link
I agree
But I would add that RV's do better than most any other experimental
plane in the reselling market.
cary
<pepeborja925mb@y...> wrote:
>
> Fact is homebuilts seldom sell for more than the sum of its parts.
> Avionics don't sell very well either as they push your product into
> an even smaller group of buyers (electronics historically don't
> recoup their value). Craftsmanship is so subjective it can't
> seriously be quantified in dollar terms.
>
> If resale (and liquidity) is a concern I would stick to Van's plans
> and install a Lycoming engine as he recommends. Autoconversions
> don't do very well in resale because the buyer can't do the
> maintenance and will need an A&P. In essence, I would build it
per
> Van's plans, with little mods, and stick to a conventional engine
> configuration and panel.
>
> The only two people I know that bough pre-owned RV-6's bought them
> for less than what they cost to build.
>
> Jose
Author: "Mitchell Lock" <CVLock@...> Time: Fri Feb 6, 2004 2:03 pm PST Link
Jose,
I'm sorry, but you are very wrong about the resale value of RV's. I've sold three. One more and I get an IFR RV with everything new for free. (What labor? I love building these things!) That is my goal. I will have built five, but the last one will be for me, just the way I want it.
Mitch Lock
----- Original Message -----
From: pepeborja925mb
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: resale value
Fact is homebuilts seldom sell for more than the sum of its parts.
Avionics don't sell very well either as they push your product into
an even smaller group of buyers (electronics historically don't
recoup their value). Craftsmanship is so subjective it can't
seriously be quantified in dollar terms.
If resale (and liquidity) is a concern I would stick to Van's plans
and install a Lycoming engine as he recommends. Autoconversions
don't do very well in resale because the buyer can't do the
maintenance and will need an A&P. In essence, I would build it per
Van's plans, with little mods, and stick to a conventional engine
configuration and panel.
The only two people I know that bough pre-owned RV-6's bought them
for less than what they cost to build.
Jose
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7and7A/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV7and7A-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@...> Time: Fri Feb 6, 2004 2:14 pm PST Link
Jose,
I also have to respectfully disagree with your assessment on the sales price
vs. cost with an RV. I can't recall a nice RV selling for less than the cost.
To answer the posters question, most 6s are going for somewhere around 65K
to 75K with the nicer ones up around 100K.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit
13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg
do not archive
_________________________________________________________________
Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and
beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx
Author: "Richard & Roberta Hegy" <rhegy@...> Time: Fri Feb 6, 2004 2:41 pm PST Link
My personnal preference is Lycoming and Standard Gyros. Just call me Old Fashion. If ya call me old, I'll bloody ya.
Just kiddin',
Roberta
----- Original Message -----
From: maxvogelman
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:47 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] resale value
me and my dad have been discussing options for the rv-7
what we want to build is a 7a with a subaru dual cam w/suprcharger
engine and a bluemountain efis ONE.
we are worried though that if it comes down to selling it that it
could be realy hard to sell. so what we want to know is how many
people are out there would like this kind of airplane and the resale
ability of this aircraft, with good workmanship of course.
what do you think?
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7and7A/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV7and7A-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "c182pilot" <c182pilot@...> Time: Fri Feb 6, 2004 5:25 pm PST Link
With me, it is more of an attitude than reality. I have thought about
this subject and my attitude is that I expect to only recoup materials
cost should I ever have to sell. Likewise, I want to build it with the
quality to double my money.
In other words, build an airplane that you can be proud of. If it's
not something you enjoy building, the quality will more than likely
not be so good and.......not many people out there want to pay good
money for a glorified beer can with wings.
Ben
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxvogelman" <mvogelman@h...> wrote:
> me and my dad have been discussing options for the rv-7
>
> what we want to build is a 7a with a subaru dual cam w/suprcharger
> engine and a bluemountain efis ONE.
>
> we are worried though that if it comes down to selling it that it
> could be realy hard to sell. so what we want to know is how many
> people are out there would like this kind of airplane and the resale
> ability of this aircraft, with good workmanship of course.
>
> what do you think?
Author: "David Domeier" <davidd010@...> Time: Sat Feb 7, 2004 5:59 am PST Link
> I'm sorry, but you are very wrong about the resale value of RV's. I've sold
three. One more and I get an IFR RV with everything new for free. (What
labor? I love building these things!) That is my goal. I will have built five, but
the last one will be for me, just the way I want it.
>
> Mitch Lock
Mitch, the airplane company!
One of these days the feds will say you are no longer an amatuer. :)
dd
Author: "Jon Baker" <jon@...> Time: Sat Feb 7, 2004 5:59 am PST Link
And that's a lot more than they were selling for when I started my
6A in 1999. At the time I thought I should be able to find a good
one in the 40's and wasted several months watching Trade-a-plane. I
don't recall ever seeing one as high as $70K, and I never did find a
completed plane to buy for less than it cost to build. In 1999 most
6's were priced in the $50's.
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@h...> wrote:
> Jose,
>
> I also have to respectfully disagree with your assessment on the
sales price
> vs. cost with an RV. I can't recall a nice RV selling for less
than the cost.
>
> To answer the posters question, most 6s are going for somewhere
around 65K
> to 75K with the nicer ones up around 100K.
> Dana Overall
> Richmond, KY i39
> RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
> Finish kit
> 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon.
> http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg
> http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg
> http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg
> do not archive
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day -
and
> beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx
Author: "flowinrv9" <rvatornate@...> Time: Sat Feb 7, 2004 9:26 am PST Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "pepeborja925mb"
<pepeborja925mb@y...> wrote:
> SNIP
> If resale (and liquidity) is a concern I would stick to Van's
plans
> and install a Lycoming engine as he recommends. Autoconversions
> don't do very well in resale because the buyer can't do the
> maintenance and will need an A&P.
> Jose
I must respectfully disagree with this part of your statement. The
buyer can and should to all the maintenance him/herself. It is only
the annual condition inspection that would require the use of a
mechanic.
Nathan Larson
RV9A Egg sube powered 55 fun filled hours and counting
Author: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@...> Time: Sat Feb 7, 2004 11:28 am PST Link
flowinrv9 wrote:
> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "pepeborja925mb"
> <pepeborja925mb@y...> wrote:
>> SNIP
>>If resale (and liquidity) is a concern I would stick to Van's
>
> plans
>
>>and install a Lycoming engine as he recommends. Autoconversions
>>don't do very well in resale because the buyer can't do the
>>maintenance and will need an A&P.
>>Jose
> I must respectfully disagree with this part of your statement. The
> buyer can and should to all the maintenance him/herself. It is only
> the annual condition inspection that would require the use of a
> mechanic.
>
> Nathan Larson
> RV9A Egg sube powered 55 fun filled hours and counting
That is if you can find an A&P who will get near a homebuilt aircraft
with an automotive engine... :-)
Sam Buchanan (RV-6, Lyconasaurus, 445 hrs)
Author: "Mitchell Lock" <CVLock@...> Time: Sat Feb 7, 2004 6:06 pm PST Link
You gotta point there.
Mitch
----- Original Message -----
From: David Domeier
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 7:55 AM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: resale value
> I'm sorry, but you are very wrong about the resale value of RV's. I've sold
three. One more and I get an IFR RV with everything new for free. (What
labor? I love building these things!) That is my goal. I will have built five, but
the last one will be for me, just the way I want it.
>
> Mitch Lock
Mitch, the airplane company!
One of these days the feds will say you are no longer an amatuer. :)
dd
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7and7A/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV7and7A-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Sat Feb 7, 2004 6:08 pm PST Link
I just related my personal experiences with selling used
homebuilts. I do not know a single person that has bought a
homebuilt airplane for more than what they cost to build (including
two 6's).
The person that said he's made money did not provide any figures to
see just how much over the sum of the parts was made. There are
hidden costs of building an airplane that normally do not get
tallied like shipping costs of many items purchased, interest on
credit cards and loans, shop supplies, electricty, tools, heating
costs, professional services (avionics and overhauls), sales tax
when the airplane is registered, and the fact that the dollars used
to purchse the parts, when adjusted for income tax, are a lot higher.
I am not done yet, add to it the cost of opportunity lost on the
capital used to build the RV, add the cost of your labor (if you
build them to sell them, but I can think of much better ways to make
capital from my own time).
If that is not enough, adjust for inflation (present and future
value of a buck). Finallay, don't forget to include the potential
liability costs if sued because you will be in the loop for 18 years
from the date of manufacture.
I do agree RVs are the best homebuilt when it comes to resale value
are better than most, but I won't dellude myself thinking that I
will "make money" when the RV finds a new home.
Perhaps someone here can provide actual numbers with dates and then
we can break them to see just how much money is really "made".
Jose.
Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Sat Feb 7, 2004 6:09 pm PST Link
<SNIP>I'm sorry, but you are very wrong about the resale value of
RV's. I've sold three. One more and I get an IFR RV with
everything new for free. (What labor? I love building these
things!) That is my goal. I will have built five, but the last one
will be for me, just the way I want it.<SNIP>
You may think it's free but I fail to see how. Time is a valuable
commodity. Assuming 1500 hrs a piece you will have invested 6000
hours of labor to get $60K worth of parts to do #5. That's $10/hr
and does not include the "cost of doing business".
Jose.
Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Sat Feb 7, 2004 6:10 pm PST Link
<SNIP>The buyer can and should to all the maintenance him/herself.
It is only the annual condition inspection that would require the
use of a mechanic.<SNIP>
Can a buyer legally take the propeller off and maintain it? Can the
buyer replace an engine wire or replace an engine bolt? Can the
buyer remove engine parts and replace them with new ones? Can the
buyer modify the engine or the installation?
I perform regular maintenance on my airplane on a fairly regular
basis and most of it would not be allowed by FARs to be done by a
non authorized person.
IMHO, finding a competent A&P willing to sign their ticket on any
maintenance performed on an autoconversion should be exciting.
Anything that may go wrong with the engine and the mechanic will be
on the ropes.
Personally, if I were buying a used RV I would stick with a Lyc
engine just because all FBO mechanics know the engines well and have
no reservations working on them. Nothing against autoconversions,
it's just making life easy.
Jose
Author: "Jon Baker" <jon@...> Time: Sun Feb 8, 2004 6:04 am PST Link
Jose --
I'm a little amazed that you know two guys who bought used RV's and
yet you are unaware that homebuilt owners are legally allowed to do
all their own maintanace -- prop, engine, or otherwise -- even if
they didn't build the plane originally.
Regarding automotive engines and finding an A&P to sign an annual
(you don't need him to sign for maintenance) -- there are an amazing
number RV builders who also happen to hold an A&P certificate. In
fact, the tech counselors in most EAA chapters are usually A&P's.
So it's not like you have to go to the local FBO and beg some guy
who works on Cessna's all day to take a look at your plane.
But I'll give you your main point -- RV's with automotive engines
probably do have a lower resale value.
Jon.
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "pepeborja925mb"
<pepeborja925mb@y...> wrote:
> <SNIP>The buyer can and should to all the maintenance
him/herself.
> It is only the annual condition inspection that would require the
> use of a mechanic.<SNIP>
>
> Can a buyer legally take the propeller off and maintain it? Can
the
> buyer replace an engine wire or replace an engine bolt? Can the
> buyer remove engine parts and replace them with new ones? Can
the
> buyer modify the engine or the installation?
>
> I perform regular maintenance on my airplane on a fairly regular
> basis and most of it would not be allowed by FARs to be done by a
> non authorized person.
>
> IMHO, finding a competent A&P willing to sign their ticket on any
> maintenance performed on an autoconversion should be exciting.
> Anything that may go wrong with the engine and the mechanic will
be
> on the ropes.
>
> Personally, if I were buying a used RV I would stick with a Lyc
> engine just because all FBO mechanics know the engines well and
have
> no reservations working on them. Nothing against autoconversions,
> it's just making life easy.
>
> Jose
Author: rccpilot@... Time: Sun Feb 8, 2004 7:39 am PST Link
The original builder is issued a "Repairman Certificate" by the DAR if he deems you skilled and knowledgeable enough about your aircraft to do the inspections. The original builder is the only one allowed to do annual inspections and major repairs under this certificate, not any subsequent buyers/owners of the aircraft. Also this authority extends to that individual aircraft only, not all aircraft of the same type (All RV6's for example).
Future owners and buyers can have the original builder do the inspections if he is willing or hire an A&P. Otherwise they are only allowed to perform the same routine maintenance that is allowed of any other pilot/owner.
Check the regs and/or ask EAA or a DAR.
Author: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy@...> Time: Sun Feb 8, 2004 10:45 am PST Link
DARs DO NOT issue Repairman Certificates..... they only issue an Airworthiness Certificate.
The FAA Rep at your local FSDO is the only person who can/will issue a Repairman Certificate after proving you were indeed the builder (photos, construction log, etc.).
Jack Lockamy
Camarillo, CA
RV-7A
www.jacklockamy.com
----- Original Message -----
From: rccpilot@c...
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Re: resale value
The original builder is issued a "Repairman Certificate" by the DAR if he deems you skilled and knowledgeable enough about your aircraft to do the inspections. The original builder is the only one allowed to do annual inspections and major repairs under this certificate, not any subsequent buyers/owners of the aircraft. Also this authority extends to that individual aircraft only, not all aircraft of the same type (All RV6's for example).
Future owners and buyers can have the original builder do the inspections if he is willing or hire an A&P. Otherwise they are only allowed to perform the same routine maintenance that is allowed of any other pilot/owner.
Check the regs and/or ask EAA or a DAR.
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7and7A/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV7and7A-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Sun Feb 8, 2004 3:30 pm PST Link
<SNIP>I'm a little amazed that you know two guys who bought used
RV's and yet you are unaware that homebuilt owners are legally
allowed to do all their own maintanace -- prop, engine, or
otherwise -- even if they didn't build the plane originally.<SNIP>
I know them from my local fly-in circuit, but not well enough to pry
on their maintenance business and (most important) how they handle
their logs. One of them for sure is fairly wealthy, is not
mechanically inclined, and uses his local FBO to do all the work.
The other one I do not know much at all.
Regarding the legality part. It may be legal but I'm not sure the
insurance companies would agree with that assessment--I am sure they
like to see buyers of homebuilt airplanes abide by part 43
regulations to ensure the airplane is properly maintained and help
keep risks low.
How will the insurance interpret an "owner" that does not hold an
A&P or a "repairman's certificate" for that specific airplane
signing the repairs and modifications on the engine and aircraft
logs? Maybe the "owner" does the repairs and maintenance and does
not log it, which in turn should raise a red flag for the second
buyer as the logs may be really clean with only condition
inspections performed.
For example, today I installed my snow skis and found the boom
tailwheel loose on my Experimental. I drilled 4 rivets out and
replaced them with the corresponding aircraft log entry. I am not
sure a "buyer" can sign that repair and the insurance be all happy
about it. Just because it is legal, it does not remove
the "negligence" part on it, which I am sure the insurance would use
to their advantage in denying a claim. AVEMCO asks in the
application for insurance if the applicant holds the repairman
certificate. I am sure they do that for a reason.
Even if it is legal, it does not mean it is the best thing to do
specially when it comes to a complex hombuilt like Van's machines.
I for one would not want to be a passenger on an airplane that is
maintained by an "owner" that does not hold the repairman's
certificate.
With that said, I still believe that autoconversions are not going
to have the same appeal as a Lyc engine on the RV used market.
Jose.
Author: "Kevin H." <onesickpup@...> Time: Sun Feb 8, 2004 6:02 pm PST Link
I am just gonna stay quiet for this one.. :) lol
----- Original Message -----
From: pepeborja925mb
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 4:46 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: resale value
<SNIP>I'm a little amazed that you know two guys who bought used
RV's and yet you are unaware that homebuilt owners are legally
allowed to do all their own maintanace -- prop, engine, or
otherwise -- even if they didn't build the plane originally.<SNIP>
I know them from my local fly-in circuit, but not well enough to pry
on their maintenance business and (most important) how they handle
their logs. One of them for sure is fairly wealthy, is not
mechanically inclined, and uses his local FBO to do all the work.
The other one I do not know much at all.
Regarding the legality part. It may be legal but I'm not sure the
insurance companies would agree with that assessment--I am sure they
like to see buyers of homebuilt airplanes abide by part 43
regulations to ensure the airplane is properly maintained and help
keep risks low.
How will the insurance interpret an "owner" that does not hold an
A&P or a "repairman's certificate" for that specific airplane
signing the repairs and modifications on the engine and aircraft
logs? Maybe the "owner" does the repairs and maintenance and does
not log it, which in turn should raise a red flag for the second
buyer as the logs may be really clean with only condition
inspections performed.
For example, today I installed my snow skis and found the boom
tailwheel loose on my Experimental. I drilled 4 rivets out and
replaced them with the corresponding aircraft log entry. I am not
sure a "buyer" can sign that repair and the insurance be all happy
about it. Just because it is legal, it does not remove
the "negligence" part on it, which I am sure the insurance would use
to their advantage in denying a claim. AVEMCO asks in the
application for insurance if the applicant holds the repairman
certificate. I am sure they do that for a reason.
Even if it is legal, it does not mean it is the best thing to do
specially when it comes to a complex hombuilt like Van's machines.
I for one would not want to be a passenger on an airplane that is
maintained by an "owner" that does not hold the repairman's
certificate.
With that said, I still believe that autoconversions are not going
to have the same appeal as a Lyc engine on the RV used market.
Jose.
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RV7and7A/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
RV7and7A-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]