Author: bikcrzy@... Time: Sat Oct 2, 2004 8:11 am PDT Link
Break the glass on the turn and bank and drink the alcohol. JR
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Author: johncclarkva@... Time: Sun Oct 3, 2004 12:33 pm PDT Link
Altitude alerters, stall warning horns, stick shakers, checklists, TCAS,
Enhanced GPWS, MSAW (minimum safe altitude warning system, an ATC function),
AMASS, EMAS, LLWAS, callouts, CRM, carbon monoxide sensors, on and on and..... are
all systems that help the newer pilots and very experienced, professional
pilots avoid and/or survive various mistakes or situations that arise from
elements out of their control. BRS may be one of the up and coming technologies that
add to the safety of aviation.
Why are all of these systems necessary? No one starts their aviation career
knowing everything they need to know. Very few end their careers knowing
everything they need to know (just kidding on that one). We can make mistakes
from a lack of knowledge, simply not know our limitations even though we have the
best intentions, have a moment of inattention...or a lot of other reasons why
pilots with good intentions still end up in accidents. Or we just push our
luck too far. I would suspect that if you are new to aviation, you have made
use of some of these systems. I would believe that if you have been around for
a long period of time, you have made use, sometimes unknowingly, of many of
the systems many time.
Not too long ago there was a lot of critical, second guessing of pilots who
failed to take advantage of their BRS systems in a timely manner. Now it
sounds like critical second guessing by some who have taken advantage of their BRS
systems (and survived). Critical seconds guessing is usually not too helpful.
Objective discussions of the facts, with good thoughts for or against any
particular course of action is helpful and useful to those who have not learned
every thing they need to know. It seems that this thread has had both.
John.
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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Sun Oct 3, 2004 12:51 pm PDT Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, johncclarkva@c... wrote:
> everything they need to know (just kidding on that one). We can
make mistakes
> from a lack of knowledge, simply not know our limitations even
though we have the
> best intentions,
Sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. But in none of the
examples i cited, was there a case of someone having the best
intentions. If you take off overweight ona hot day, you don't have
the best intentions. If you fly into IMC and you're a VFR pilot, you
don't have the best intentions.
And if you don't know your limitation, you don't have the best
intentions.
Nobody wants to crash. Nobody wants to get into trouble. I the
examles I cited, you don't have to know everything there is to know.
You only need to know what they taught you in the first two weeks of
flight school when you got a license.
If you fly overweight, if you don't pay attention to density
altitude, if you run out of fuel on a simple cross country trip, if
you fly into IMC, it can ONLY be because you deliberately ignored
something you shouldn't have ignored. And anybody who got their
pilot certificate should know better.
Now, having said that, I acknowledge those thins still happen. It's
one of the things that gives flying a bad name. But I don't think we
should kid ourselves and pretend these people are good pilots having
bad days. They're not.
And to the extent that the BRS chute can save them from death,
great. And to the extent the FAA or somebody else can keep them from
ever being so deliberately stupid again, great to that too.
> Or we just push our
> luck too far.
That's the definition of a bad pilot. That's a pilot who needs more
training, not more equipment.
>Now it
> sounds like critical second guessing by some who have taken
advantage of their BRS
> systems (and survived). Critical seconds guessing is usually not
too helpful.
It absolutely is. WE can learn a lot about why pilots get into the
scrapes they get into. That's why newsletters like Aviation Safety,
and articles by Richard Collins, and Flying's "I learned how to fly
from that," and the monthly NTSB analysis and virtually EVERYTHING
that the Aviation Safety Foundation does are so widely read and --
most of the time -- heeded by the best pilots.
We can learn a lot from the msitakes of others. We can learn not to
make those mistakes and we can keep in mind what happens whenyou do.
The attempt to link this obvious point to whether you install a
parachute system or not is -- at best -- odd.
Nobody in this thread, as far as I know, has said people shouldn't
install a BRS chute. Nobody as far as I know has said they don't
work.
I think folks should install all the system they can afford and the
design of their plane can handle. I also think they should get
constant training after they've got their certificate.
But I realize that nobody ever looked at a plane at, say, OSH and
said "wow, that's really cool. You got training in spin recovery."
Pulling a chute isn't an admission of stupidity, or failure, or
anything other than the fact you're in trouble. Andif BRS puts out a
release on how their chutes saved a pilot, and if someone posts it
here, I'm sorry folks but that makes it fair game to ask why the
pilot got into the situation in the first place.
To ask people to endorse the solution and yet be discouraged from
asking what the problem is? That's just wrong-headed.
Bob
St. Paul
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Yahoo! Groups Links
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Author: B Tomm <fvalarm@...> Time: Sun Oct 3, 2004 2:50 pm PDT Link
Just curious how much weight does the BRS add and does it occupy the
baggage area on the RV? If the weight is a sigificant portion of the
baggage allotment or it does infringe on baggage volume, the BRS decision
is obviously not a simple question of "would I like to have it or not". It
may be better to remember the old addage "Better to use superior judgement
prior to flight than to count on using superior skills during flight", and
also remember "to keep something in your back pocket". That something may
be a BRS (plan Z), OR to always have an alternate plan or two beyond any
given point of your current situation. The best equipment should still be
found between the pilots ears. Ongoing training is a huge part of that.
I may be wrong but if remember correctly, the BRS was originally designed
for ultralights because they had a relatively poor safety record. In any
case I think the BRS is ideal for structural issues such as flight testing
new designs, hard aerobatics, or flying over unavoidable and unhospitable
areas such as rocky mountain ranges and open water. BRS may be less
attractive for well panned easy cross country flying where you need the
baggage area for other things.
Sorry for the babble, I'll hang up and get back to riveting.
Bevan
RV7A
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Collins [SMTP:bcollins@mpr.org]
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:48 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Parachute Deployment Saves Another Pilot and
Passenger in Thei...
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, johncclarkva@c... wrote:
> everything they need to know (just kidding on that one). We can
make mistakes
> from a lack of knowledge, simply not know our limitations even
though we have the
> best intentions,
Sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. But in none of the
examples i cited, was there a case of someone having the best
intentions. If you take off overweight ona hot day, you don't have
the best intentions. If you fly into IMC and you're a VFR pilot, you
don't have the best intentions.
And if you don't know your limitation, you don't have the best
intentions.
Nobody wants to crash. Nobody wants to get into trouble. I the
examles I cited, you don't have to know everything there is to know.
You only need to know what they taught you in the first two weeks of
flight school when you got a license.
If you fly overweight, if you don't pay attention to density
altitude, if you run out of fuel on a simple cross country trip, if
you fly into IMC, it can ONLY be because you deliberately ignored
something you shouldn't have ignored. And anybody who got their
pilot certificate should know better.
Now, having said that, I acknowledge those thins still happen. It's
one of the things that gives flying a bad name. But I don't think we
should kid ourselves and pretend these people are good pilots having
bad days. They're not.
And to the extent that the BRS chute can save them from death,
great. And to the extent the FAA or somebody else can keep them from
ever being so deliberately stupid again, great to that too.
> Or we just push our
> luck too far.
That's the definition of a bad pilot. That's a pilot who needs more
training, not more equipment.
>Now it
> sounds like critical second guessing by some who have taken
advantage of their BRS
> systems (and survived). Critical seconds guessing is usually not
too helpful.
It absolutely is. WE can learn a lot about why pilots get into the
scrapes they get into. That's why newsletters like Aviation Safety,
and articles by Richard Collins, and Flying's "I learned how to fly
from that," and the monthly NTSB analysis and virtually EVERYTHING
that the Aviation Safety Foundation does are so widely read and --
most of the time -- heeded by the best pilots.
We can learn a lot from the msitakes of others. We can learn not to
make those mistakes and we can keep in mind what happens whenyou do.
The attempt to link this obvious point to whether you install a
parachute system or not is -- at best -- odd.
Nobody in this thread, as far as I know, has said people shouldn't
install a BRS chute. Nobody as far as I know has said they don't
work.
I think folks should install all the system they can afford and the
design of their plane can handle. I also think they should get
constant training after they've got their certificate.
But I realize that nobody ever looked at a plane at, say, OSH and
said "wow, that's really cool. You got training in spin recovery."
Pulling a chute isn't an admission of stupidity, or failure, or
anything other than the fact you're in trouble. Andif BRS puts out a
release on how their chutes saved a pilot, and if someone posts it
here, I'm sorry folks but that makes it fair game to ask why the
pilot got into the situation in the first place.
To ask people to endorse the solution and yet be discouraged from
asking what the problem is? That's just wrong-headed.
Bob
St. Paul
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
Yahoo! Groups Links
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--------------------------------------------------------------------~-
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<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Sun Oct 3, 2004 4:16 pm PDT Link
I think I will opt for a few ounces of good judgment and save about
35 pounds of dead weight. There are those "pilots" who think that
they should always push the limits of their abilities and the
airplanes limits as long as they have a "way out". The BRS offers
that comfort to them.
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, johncclarkva@c... wrote:
>
> Altitude alerters, stall warning horns, stick shakers, checklists,
TCAS,
> Enhanced GPWS, MSAW (minimum safe altitude warning system, an ATC
function),
> AMASS, EMAS, LLWAS, callouts, CRM, carbon monoxide sensors, on and
on and..... are
> all systems that help the newer pilots and very experienced,
professional
> pilots avoid and/or survive various mistakes or situations that
arise from
> elements out of their control. BRS may be one of the up and
coming technologies that
> add to the safety of aviation.
>
> Why are all of these systems necessary? No one starts their
aviation career
> knowing everything they need to know. Very few end their careers
knowing
> everything they need to know (just kidding on that one). We can
make mistakes
> from a lack of knowledge, simply not know our limitations even
though we have the
> best intentions, have a moment of inattention...or a lot of other
reasons why
> pilots with good intentions still end up in accidents. Or we just
push our
> luck too far. I would suspect that if you are new to aviation,
you have made
> use of some of these systems. I would believe that if you have
been around for
> a long period of time, you have made use, sometimes unknowingly,
of many of
> the systems many time.
>
> Not too long ago there was a lot of critical, second guessing of
pilots who
> failed to take advantage of their BRS systems in a timely manner.
Now it
> sounds like critical second guessing by some who have taken
advantage of their BRS
> systems (and survived). Critical seconds guessing is usually not
too helpful.
> Objective discussions of the facts, with good thoughts for or
against any
> particular course of action is helpful and useful to those who
have not learned
> every thing they need to know. It seems that this thread has had
both.
>
> John.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: "Chuck Stuhrenberg" <cs@...> Time: Mon Oct 4, 2004 11:36 am PDT Link
Bevan,
I plan on a baggage area install. Weight should be around 30-35 lbs.
It measures 9.5" x 13.0" x 20". I should still be able to carry 60
lbs. in baggage area if I'm fully loaded.(same as rv-6)
Chuck
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, B Tomm <fvalarm@r...> wrote:
>
> Just curious how much weight does the BRS add and does it occupy
the
> baggage area on the RV? If the weight is a sigificant portion of
the
> baggage allotment or it does infringe on baggage volume, the BRS
decision
> is obviously not a simple question of "would I like to have it or
not". It
> may be better to remember the old addage "Better to use superior
judgement
> prior to flight than to count on using superior skills during
flight", and
> also remember "to keep something in your back pocket". That
something may
> be a BRS (plan Z), OR to always have an alternate plan or two
beyond any
> given point of your current situation. The best equipment should
still be
> found between the pilots ears. Ongoing training is a huge part of
that.
> I may be wrong but if remember correctly, the BRS was originally
designed
> for ultralights because they had a relatively poor safety record.
In any
> case I think the BRS is ideal for structural issues such as flight
testing
> new designs, hard aerobatics, or flying over unavoidable and
unhospitable
> areas such as rocky mountain ranges and open water. BRS may be
less
> attractive for well panned easy cross country flying where you need
the
> baggage area for other things.
> Sorry for the babble, I'll hang up and get back to riveting.
> Bevan
> RV7A
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Collins [SMTP:bcollins@m...]
> Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 12:48 PM
> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Parachute Deployment Saves Another
Pilot and
> Passenger in Thei...
> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, johncclarkva@c... wrote:
> > everything they need to know (just kidding on that one). We can
> make mistakes
> > from a lack of knowledge, simply not know our limitations even
> though we have the
> > best intentions,
>
> Sometimes that's true. Sometimes it's not. But in none of the
> examples i cited, was there a case of someone having the best
> intentions. If you take off overweight ona hot day, you don't have
> the best intentions. If you fly into IMC and you're a VFR pilot, you
> don't have the best intentions.
>
> And if you don't know your limitation, you don't have the best
> intentions.
>
> Nobody wants to crash. Nobody wants to get into trouble. I the
> examles I cited, you don't have to know everything there is to know.
> You only need to know what they taught you in the first two weeks of
> flight school when you got a license.
>
> If you fly overweight, if you don't pay attention to density
> altitude, if you run out of fuel on a simple cross country trip, if
> you fly into IMC, it can ONLY be because you deliberately ignored
> something you shouldn't have ignored. And anybody who got their
> pilot certificate should know better.
>
> Now, having said that, I acknowledge those thins still happen. It's
> one of the things that gives flying a bad name. But I don't think we
> should kid ourselves and pretend these people are good pilots having
> bad days. They're not.
>
> And to the extent that the BRS chute can save them from death,
> great. And to the extent the FAA or somebody else can keep them from
> ever being so deliberately stupid again, great to that too.
>
> > Or we just push our
> > luck too far.
>
> That's the definition of a bad pilot. That's a pilot who needs more
> training, not more equipment.
> >Now it
> > sounds like critical second guessing by some who have taken
> advantage of their BRS
> > systems (and survived). Critical seconds guessing is usually not
> too helpful.
>
> It absolutely is. WE can learn a lot about why pilots get into the
> scrapes they get into. That's why newsletters like Aviation Safety,
> and articles by Richard Collins, and Flying's "I learned how to fly
> from that," and the monthly NTSB analysis and virtually EVERYTHING
> that the Aviation Safety Foundation does are so widely read and --
> most of the time -- heeded by the best pilots.
>
> We can learn a lot from the msitakes of others. We can learn not to
> make those mistakes and we can keep in mind what happens whenyou do.
>
> The attempt to link this obvious point to whether you install a
> parachute system or not is -- at best -- odd.
>
> Nobody in this thread, as far as I know, has said people shouldn't
> install a BRS chute. Nobody as far as I know has said they don't
> work.
>
> I think folks should install all the system they can afford and the
> design of their plane can handle. I also think they should get
> constant training after they've got their certificate.
>
> But I realize that nobody ever looked at a plane at, say, OSH and
> said "wow, that's really cool. You got training in spin recovery."
>
> Pulling a chute isn't an admission of stupidity, or failure, or
> anything other than the fact you're in trouble. Andif BRS puts out a
> release on how their chutes saved a pilot, and if someone posts it
> here, I'm sorry folks but that makes it fair game to ask why the
> pilot got into the situation in the first place.
>
> To ask people to endorse the solution and yet be discouraged from
> asking what the problem is? That's just wrong-headed.
>
> Bob
> St. Paul
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Yahoo! Groups Links
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
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<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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