Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Tue Oct 5, 2004 12:21 pm PDT Link
Have you seen the movie "Butterfly Effect" if so, here something
that could have been in the movie script for Evan to do:
Excerpt from the NTSB files:
Nov 7, 2003. "According to a witness at the Santa Clarita Regional
Golf Course, a red and white airplane flew overhead around 1515 the
day of the accident. He said that it appeared to be going into Santa
Paula. He said the engine was sputtering, and he watched for a while
until it dropped below his horizon. He said about a 1/2 hour later
there were helicopters flying around the area where he last saw the
airplane. Other than the engine sputtering, the witness indicated
that the airplane appeared to be under control. An experimental
Cathaway RV-6A, N102RC, impacted terrain under unknown circumstances
near Saticoy, California. The pilot/owner/builder operated the
airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The airplane was
destroyed. The pilot, the sole occupant, sustained fatal injuries."
Now, let's apply the butterfly effect and the NTSB report could have
been written to read like this:
Nov 7, 2003. "According to the pilot, he was enroute to Santa Paula
at 2000's AGL when the aircraft develop engine trouble. The pilot
stated that the options for a force landing did not look promising
and decided to deploy his Ballistic Recovery System. The pilot
shut the engine off, radioed a May Day call, and pulled the
handle. His experimental Cathaway RV-6A, N102RC, came to rest on
a rough area and sustained minor damage. The pilot/owner/builder
was treated and release at the scene".
Different outcomes. A BRS can make a differnce. Think about it!!!!!!
Jose.
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Author: "Steve Reamer" <steve@...> Time: Tue Oct 5, 2004 12:58 pm PDT Link
Raises the question of what minimum safe altitude could one expect to deploy
a BRS "1800" attached to a RV7A..?
Will go to BRS web site and answer my own question and report back...
-----Original Message-----
From: pepeborja925mb [mailto:pepeborja925mb@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 3:17 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] BRS and the Butterfly Effect
Have you seen the movie "Butterfly Effect" if so, here something
that could have been in the movie script for Evan to do:
Excerpt from the NTSB files:
Nov 7, 2003. "According to a witness at the Santa Clarita Regional
Golf Course, a red and white airplane flew overhead around 1515 the
day of the accident. He said that it appeared to be going into Santa
Paula. He said the engine was sputtering, and he watched for a while
until it dropped below his horizon. He said about a 1/2 hour later
there were helicopters flying around the area where he last saw the
airplane. Other than the engine sputtering, the witness indicated
that the airplane appeared to be under control. An experimental
Cathaway RV-6A, N102RC, impacted terrain under unknown circumstances
near Saticoy, California. The pilot/owner/builder operated the
airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The airplane was
destroyed. The pilot, the sole occupant, sustained fatal injuries."
Now, let's apply the butterfly effect and the NTSB report could have
been written to read like this:
Nov 7, 2003. "According to the pilot, he was enroute to Santa Paula
at 2000's AGL when the aircraft develop engine trouble. The pilot
stated that the options for a force landing did not look promising
and decided to deploy his Ballistic Recovery System. The pilot
shut the engine off, radioed a May Day call, and pulled the
handle. His experimental Cathaway RV-6A, N102RC, came to rest on
a rough area and sustained minor damage. The pilot/owner/builder
was treated and release at the scene".
Different outcomes. A BRS can make a differnce. Think about it!!!!!!
Jose.
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
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Author: Phil Birkelbach <phil@...> Time: Tue Oct 5, 2004 2:24 pm PDT Link
Or the pilot could have kept his nose down, his airspeed up, landed on
the 9th fairway, walked to the clubhouse for a Coke and phone call, then
we wouldn't have an NTSB report at all. Sorry I couldn't resist.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Panel
http://www.myrv7.com
pepeborja925mb wrote:
>Have you seen the movie "Butterfly Effect" if so, here something
>that could have been in the movie script for Evan to do:
>
>Excerpt from the NTSB files:
>
>Nov 7, 2003. "According to a witness at the Santa Clarita Regional
>Golf Course, a red and white airplane flew overhead around 1515 the
>day of the accident. He said that it appeared to be going into Santa
>Paula. He said the engine was sputtering, and he watched for a while
>until it dropped below his horizon. He said about a 1/2 hour later
>there were helicopters flying around the area where he last saw the
>airplane. Other than the engine sputtering, the witness indicated
>that the airplane appeared to be under control. An experimental
>Cathaway RV-6A, N102RC, impacted terrain under unknown circumstances
>near Saticoy, California. The pilot/owner/builder operated the
>airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The airplane was
>destroyed. The pilot, the sole occupant, sustained fatal injuries."
>
>Now, let's apply the butterfly effect and the NTSB report could have
>been written to read like this:
>
>Nov 7, 2003. "According to the pilot, he was enroute to Santa Paula
>at 2000's AGL when the aircraft develop engine trouble. The pilot
>stated that the options for a force landing did not look promising
>and decided to deploy his Ballistic Recovery System. The pilot
>shut the engine off, radioed a May Day call, and pulled the
>handle. His experimental Cathaway RV-6A, N102RC, came to rest on
>a rough area and sustained minor damage. The pilot/owner/builder
>was treated and release at the scene".
>
>Different outcomes. A BRS can make a differnce. Think about it!!!!!!
>
>Jose.
>Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
>www.vansaircraft.net
>Yahoo! Groups Links
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Author: "Steve Reamer" <steve@...> Time: Tue Oct 5, 2004 8:52 pm PDT Link
Right...no NTSB report...just a bunch of lawsuits by the lawyers playing
golf...LOL
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Birkelbach [mailto:phil@petrasoft.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 4:53 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] BRS and the Butterfly Effect
Or the pilot could have kept his nose down, his airspeed up, landed on
the 9th fairway, walked to the clubhouse for a Coke and phone call, then
we wouldn't have an NTSB report at all. Sorry I couldn't resist.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Panel
http://www.myrv7.com
pepeborja925mb wrote:
>Have you seen the movie "Butterfly Effect" if so, here something
>that could have been in the movie script for Evan to do:
>
>Excerpt from the NTSB files:
>
>Nov 7, 2003. "According to a witness at the Santa Clarita Regional
>Golf Course, a red and white airplane flew overhead around 1515 the
>day of the accident. He said that it appeared to be going into Santa
>Paula. He said the engine was sputtering, and he watched for a while
>until it dropped below his horizon. He said about a 1/2 hour later
>there were helicopters flying around the area where he last saw the
>airplane. Other than the engine sputtering, the witness indicated
>that the airplane appeared to be under control. An experimental
>Cathaway RV-6A, N102RC, impacted terrain under unknown circumstances
>near Saticoy, California. The pilot/owner/builder operated the
>airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91. The airplane was
>destroyed. The pilot, the sole occupant, sustained fatal injuries."
>
>Now, let's apply the butterfly effect and the NTSB report could have
>been written to read like this:
>
>Nov 7, 2003. "According to the pilot, he was enroute to Santa Paula
>at 2000's AGL when the aircraft develop engine trouble. The pilot
>stated that the options for a force landing did not look promising
>and decided to deploy his Ballistic Recovery System. The pilot
>shut the engine off, radioed a May Day call, and pulled the
>handle. His experimental Cathaway RV-6A, N102RC, came to rest on
>a rough area and sustained minor damage. The pilot/owner/builder
>was treated and release at the scene".
>
>Different outcomes. A BRS can make a differnce. Think about it!!!!!!
>
>Jose.
>Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
>www.vansaircraft.net
>Yahoo! Groups Links
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
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Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 6:58 am PDT Link
<SNIP>Or the pilot could have kept his nose down, his airspeed up,
landed on the 9th fairway, walked to the clubhouse for a Coke and
phone call, then we wouldn't have an NTSB report at all. Sorry I
couldn't resist.<SNIP>
The report would still be there.
In the last 5 years, 45 people have died in 31 RV crashes.
Something to keep in mind before climbing on the saddle (unless
wanting to stake a claim on number 46). It has been two months
since the last RV fatality, an RV4 on a forced landing that killed
the pilot and the pax. Statistically, we should be reading about
one real soon (one fatal accident every 1.9 months).
You bring an excellent point worth examination. Why didn't the
pilot land at the golf course?
Me thinks, and it has been my experience flying with pilots with
panels chokefull of gadgets that they spend too much time looking
inside and not enough time looking outside watching for traffic or
their next landing spot.
Ask this question to any pilot. In your last few hours of flight
time, how much time did you spend looking outside scouting for
landing spots in case the windmill goes quiet? Did you always had a
spot selected or were you counting on "it won't happen to me".
Jose.
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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 7:02 am PDT Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "pepeborja925mb"
<pepeborja925mb@y...> wrote:
> Me thinks, and it has been my experience flying with pilots with
> panels chokefull of gadgets that they spend too much time looking
> inside and not enough time looking outside watching for traffic or
> their next landing spot.
Good point, and what you describe here are basic flight skills,
which are learned and reinforced by training.... a concept which you
earlier referred to as "higher than thou b.s." and the advocates of
which you alluded to earlier in this message as being in the saddle
(i.e....on their high horse).
I welcome your embracing the value and concept of continuous training as an effective means of ensuring a level of safety.
Maybe now the idea will get more respect by those who think it's only for sissies.
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Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 7:29 am PDT Link
<SNIP>a concept which you earlier referred to as "higher than thou
b.s." and the advocates of which you alluded to earlier in this
message as being in the saddle (i.e....on their high horse).<SNIP>
No Bob, "higher than thou" has nothing to do with training, skills,
or awareness. It has more to do with the attitude displayed and the
lecturing tone of "only the idiots die" or "God has a way of geting
rid of idiot pilots" or "dumb rich pilots in their Cirrus airplanes
pull the BRS cord becaue they don't know how to work their way out
of an emergency".
That's the "higher than thou" I refered to.
It is a known fact that most accidents are cuased by pilot error and
to imply "it won't happen to me because I am smart, train all the
time, and always exercise good judgment" is a "higher than thou"
attitude.
Climbing in the saddle is a term we use around this parts. Every
time we fly as a group to weekly fly-in events we depart from
different farms/airstrips, so we call it "saddle up" time and has
nothing to do with being in a high horse. We say "saddle up at 10"
and be "wheels up at quarter after".
I sincerely hope you never, ever find yourslef eating crow on this
issue, because it may very well be your last meal.
Jose.
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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 8:08 am PDT Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "pepeborja925mb"
<pepeborja925mb@y...> wrote:
>
> No Bob, "higher than thou" has nothing to do with training,
skills,
> or awareness. It has more to do with the attitude displayed and
the
> lecturing tone of "only the idiots die"
Yes, that would be a bad thing. But, of coruse, I never said that.
//or "God has a way of geting
I can't help that. He does and you should take it up with him. (or
her). It's merely another version of the axiom "There are old pilots
and there are bold pilots...."
And it also speaks to the reality that the majority of GA accidents,
including the fatal ones, are the result of decisions made by the
pilot. And I use the plural for a reason. The chain of errors is
well documented by people far more knowledgeable than I.
Now you can disagree with that and you can disagree with me for
pointing out the reality, but doing so doesn't change the reality.
> pull the BRS cord becaue they don't know how to work their way out
> of an emergency".
And of course I never said that either. We don't know whether they
know how to work their way out of an emegency and, frankly, I don't
care. If a pilot feels the need to bail, he should bail. The
questions I DO have centers on focusing on how the pilot got into that decision in the first place and that's far, far different from
how you characterize it. And if I were you I'd probably do the same thing becuase it's illogical for anybody NOT to ask that question and it's illogical for any pilot to intentionally run out of fuel, try to fly overweight, try to fly when the law of physics says you can't, and run into IMC when VFR. There's NO way to do either one of these things unless you make the clear judgment at some point to risk doing just that. And yet, here we are with you pointing out the attitude problem I have in focusing on that.....and saying nothing, zip, nada...about the attitude of the pilot who makes those judgments other than the "well, we all do it sooner or later." No. We don't, Jose.
I know how not to run out of fuel. I know how to do a 180 to avoid weather. I know how to calculate weight and balance and I know how to figure the effects of density altitude. And the reason I know those things is because I HAD to before I was allowed to fly. Does that make me immune to making mistakes. No, of course not. Does that make me a better pilot than you? Well, if you ARE making those judgments, then, yes, it actually does. But that's not a reflection on MY attitude. It's a reflection on YOURs.
That doesn't make me holier than thou. I was REQUIRED to know those things. And you know what, Jose? So was everybody else. And so were the people who make those mistakes. Did they "forget" that planes don't fly without fuel. You know, I don't think so.
And yet. There is silence. A guy pulls a chute. The press release gets cranked out. The employees post it on the board and say, "see? they work." Yeah, no kidding. But God forbid anyone should say,"hey, why'd he run out of fuel?" Or "why was he trying to take off from a high elevation runway when it 90 degrees out?" No, don't ask those questions becuase if you do, well, someday you might eat crow. Well, YEAH, you will....IF you try to fly a plane without fuel. You should eat crow. You should LIVE to eat crow. You just shouldn't fly again because I think you've proven an inability to meet the responsibilities of being pilot in command.
The closest analogy is a cop. A "good" cop doesn't rat out a "dirty cop." But the reality is at THAT point, the "good" cop becomes dirty too. He just thinks he's still a good one.
> to imply "it won't happen to me because I am smart, train all the
> time, and always exercise good judgment" is a "higher than thou"
> attitude.
Well, again, this is the modus operandi of the failed argument. I
never, ever, said it can't happen to me. And if you can find where I
DID say it can never to happen, then I will immediately remove all
the money from the bank and personally drive it over to Elk River.
Can IT happen to me? LIke, can I make mistakes. Of course. Can the scenarios that I've lised time and time again happen to me? Only if I CHOOSE for them to. I do not so choose. That's not a matter of luck. That's intelligence. Pilots have it, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten the certificate in the first place.
At the end of the day today, I'm confident I'll have the money to
buy a BRS chute.
> I sincerely hope you never, ever find yourslef eating crow on this
> issue, because it may very well be your last meal.
If I do, it'll only be because people will change what I said and
then say, "see? He's eating crow."
Training and judgment is THE most valuable, most efficient, most
cost-effective way to minimize the risk of flying. Period.
For some reason, the chutists translate that into me saying that
it's the ONLY way to minimize risk. And that's just silly.
The cemetaries are full of pilots who'd still be alive today if
someone had just said something to them about the way they fly or
the judgments they make.
But that would be preachy... and apparently unmanly.
Look, I don't know how many more ways to say it. The chute is a great idea. It's a wonderful insurance policy and everyone who can afford one and wants to make the construction trade-offs should do so. BRS is another company in Minnesota that pays taxes and I'm all for their continued success.
If you hear and undercurrent in the thread, it is merely the concern that pilots with a chute, and with that insurance policy, are more or less inclined to take risks and ignore OTHER insurance policies that are also out there.
For the record. I DO NOT KNOW IF THAT IS TRUE. But in reading your epistles about regarding training and the notion that sooner or later, every pilot violates rules of basic airmanship that they wre required to observe to get their certificate in the first place -- running out of fuel, flying overweight, running into IMC -- I don't feel any less compelled to ask.
BC
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Author: Michèle Delsol <michele.delsol@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 8:09 am PDT Link
Interesting point.
Question: Is there a direct relationship between cockpit complexity and a
subconscious feeling of immunity as to mishap?
I think that without adequate training, there is.
Michèle Delsol
RV8 - Wings
_____
From: pepeborja925mb [mailto:pepeborja925mb@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 3:52 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: BRS and the Butterfly Effect
<SNIP>Or the pilot could have kept his nose down, his airspeed up,
landed on the 9th fairway, walked to the clubhouse for a Coke and
phone call, then we wouldn't have an NTSB report at all. Sorry I
couldn't resist.<SNIP>
The report would still be there.
In the last 5 years, 45 people have died in 31 RV crashes.
Something to keep in mind before climbing on the saddle (unless
wanting to stake a claim on number 46). It has been two months
since the last RV fatality, an RV4 on a forced landing that killed
the pilot and the pax. Statistically, we should be reading about
one real soon (one fatal accident every 1.9 months).
You bring an excellent point worth examination. Why didn't the
pilot land at the golf course?
Me thinks, and it has been my experience flying with pilots with
panels chokefull of gadgets that they spend too much time looking
inside and not enough time looking outside watching for traffic or
their next landing spot.
Ask this question to any pilot. In your last few hours of flight
time, how much time did you spend looking outside scouting for
landing spots in case the windmill goes quiet? Did you always had a
spot selected or were you counting on "it won't happen to me".
Jose.
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
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Author: "Steve Reamer" <steve@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 9:19 am PDT Link
Jose,
I must agree...humility is the cornerstone of wisdom...I agree with Bob's
passionate ranting about training, as do you I am sure. However, my attitude
when reading most NTSB reports is "there but for the grace of God go I"...I
think that is a healthy attitude, not an admission of guilt.
It is good to remember that we were all student pilots once and that our
ticket is a license to learn...logically that means we will never be skilled
or trained enough to be prepared for anything we might encounter in the air,
and just as logically we may not have the resources we need one day...not
because we were not diligent or devoted to our discipline of flight. We
might just be the prey of "Fate"...
Not every pilot that does something stupid is careless...sometimes they are
just new...a death sentence is an overly harsh penalty for being
inexperienced if it can be prevented.
It is frustrating when you see carelessness...because as Bob rightly points
out, the careless one is not always the only one that pays.
Being part of the solution is the better approach...for example...even
though my partner was accompanied by a high time ATP and PIC instructor I
could have encouraged them to preflight with a sarcastic comment like "you
are not really going to operate that aircraft without a proper preflight are
you..?"...no doubt, at least, the instructor would have been embarrassed
into action...
SR
-----Original Message-----
From: pepeborja925mb [mailto:pepeborja925mb@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:27 AM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: BRS and the Butterfly Effect
<SNIP>a concept which you earlier referred to as "higher than thou
b.s." and the advocates of which you alluded to earlier in this
message as being in the saddle (i.e....on their high horse).<SNIP>
No Bob, "higher than thou" has nothing to do with training, skills,
or awareness. It has more to do with the attitude displayed and the
lecturing tone of "only the idiots die" or "God has a way of geting
rid of idiot pilots" or "dumb rich pilots in their Cirrus airplanes
pull the BRS cord becaue they don't know how to work their way out
of an emergency".
That's the "higher than thou" I refered to.
It is a known fact that most accidents are cuased by pilot error and
to imply "it won't happen to me because I am smart, train all the
time, and always exercise good judgment" is a "higher than thou"
attitude.
Climbing in the saddle is a term we use around this parts. Every
time we fly as a group to weekly fly-in events we depart from
different farms/airstrips, so we call it "saddle up" time and has
nothing to do with being in a high horse. We say "saddle up at 10"
and be "wheels up at quarter after".
I sincerely hope you never, ever find yourslef eating crow on this
issue, because it may very well be your last meal.
Jose.
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Author: customtrans@... Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 9:43 am PDT Link
I think I'd rather be in the air with a person that just got his ticket that
some of the boobs I've seen this year. Get a load of some of these:
It was getting dark and hard to see, not quite time to have the ol' lights
on yet, still within that hour before sunset thing, I was in the downwind
for landing and heard this person all of a sudden announce himself to land
and in the down wind, I came back and said state your location, his response
was, no lie, I'm just below you and passing you on the inside", Holy
bajesus, I'm already at minimum TPA and in very close, and this guy is
passing my like I'm standing still.
It was past the twilight time and I was on final approach, on the right is a
ridge that you fly over for down wind on the opposite runway. I make my
calls(unattended airfield) for landing starting at 10 miles out. airfield
is KSFF in Spokane, same with the first example. I'm coming in on 21R and
no other traffic in site and no other calls. I turn the lights on(runway
lights) and decide to be safe and not go straight in because of the ridge
and the possibility of somebody coming over it to land from the north. I
get within airport boundries, over the fence so to speak and there it was,
lights of another airplane, he cut me off, and if I would have been on a
straight shot into the runway, I hate to think of it, I was about 1 to 2
hundred ft off the ground, I pull to the left to land on the other runway,
(parallel) that, with the help of the moon and my own lights, started to
land, and then I had a thought, What if? He turns off the runway and
crosses in front of me, so I pull up and to the left, swing around and do a
down wind for 3R and land and followed right in behind him, I was right, he
cut right across 21L. I put the airplane away and drove over the his hanger
and told him he cut me off. His response, I was wondering why their was no
radio response. And get this, when this happened I turned the runway light
on and off and we was wondering why they did that?????
Landing at another uncontrolled field, busy day with 3 other planes in the
pattern. There was this one plane down on the taxiway, on the take off end
of runway 34, was sitting their for at least two touch and goes(mine), with
NO radio calls, and me on the last little bit on final, within 8th mile.
This joker pulls on the runway, I'm forces to abort the landing and turn
right.
Last example,
Went to a fly-in in Colville wa. standing on the ground, a kitfox comes in
to land, tries to do a 3 point and bounces all over the place, tail dragger,
just after touch down, a 182 all of the sudden is right behind him and
powers up and does a go around, the other guy is still on the runway. What
happened? this is what happened. The kitfox came in the pattern on the
opposite side, everybody else was doing the normal left pattern, 3 other
planes where in the pattern, the kitfox had a radio, but didn't use it, he
just flew into right pattern and flew in front of the 182, the 182 might
have been able to land ok, but wait a minute, instead of taking the taxiway
down at the end of the runway, the kitfox does a 180degree turn on the
runway and taxi's back on the runway. Now this kitfox pilot also is a
retired airline pilot, go figure.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Collins [mailto:bcollins@mpr.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:00 AM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: BRS and the Butterfly Effect
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "pepeborja925mb"
<pepeborja925mb@y...> wrote:
> Me thinks, and it has been my experience flying with pilots with
> panels chokefull of gadgets that they spend too much time looking
> inside and not enough time looking outside watching for traffic or
> their next landing spot.
Good point, and what you describe here are basic flight skills,
which are learned and reinforced by training.... a concept which you
earlier referred to as "higher than thou b.s." and the advocates of
which you alluded to earlier in this message as being in the saddle
(i.e....on their high horse).
I welcome your embracing the value and concept of continuous training as
an effective means of ensuring a level of safety.
Maybe now the idea will get more respect by those who think it's only for
sissies.
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
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Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 9:20 am PDT Link
<SNIP>But, of coruse, I never said that.<SNIP>
<SNIP>And of course I never said that either.<SNIP>
<SNIP>I never, ever, said it can't happen to me. And if you can find
where I DID say it can never to happen, then I will<SNIP>
Bob,
You have used a sea of words to inundate this topic. Basically,
it's not what you have actually said (wrote in this case), but what
one (the reader) takes from your written words.
The tone, length, humor style, and overall ideas expressed in your
writings give the reader of your post an idea of your position. You
may be correct in asserting "not having said" that; however, that
does not absolve you from having formed an opinion on the reader's
mind as to what you "meant" by what you wrote (i.e., the reader's
takeaways from your post).
If I say so myself, it is election season and a great deal of flip-
flopping comes with that. At last, now you have come to recognize
the BRS is a great idea.
I will leave you with two of your quotes. Now, please imagine those
words coming from someone else. Read them carefully and examine
each word. Form an opinon on what the author meant when he/she
wrote them. Look at the tone and sharpness of the two statements.
Why were certain words chosen? What was the authore really trying
to communicate? What should you think the author is like in his
attitude towards flying or other pilots in general?
"The pilot of a Cirrus is the pilot of a great plane. The plane,
with this strategy, probably has a mediocre pilot."
"If you DO have the money to buy a Cirrus and you DON'T get yourself
trained thoroughly and you DO treat it like a nice toy, then -- yes -
- you are an idiot. "
Jose.
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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 9:30 am PDT Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "pepeborja925mb"
<pepeborja925mb@y...> wrote:
>
> You have used a sea of words to inundate this topic. Basically,
> it's not what you have actually said (wrote in this case), but what
> one (the reader) takes from your written words.
But the only way one reaches that conclusion is first to ignore the
words that actually WERE said, and then accept as reality that which
you choose to think I meant. That's on you, not me.
> I will leave you with two of your quotes. Now, please imagine
those
> words coming from someone else.
You have, indeed, learned well from the election campaign, for you
isolated two sentences and removed the context from them. As you
recall, I referred you to the Fallows article --w hich I'm going to
assume you never read -- and the marketing strategy that he indicated
(and which Klapmeier readily agrees) and noted that IF you're
marketing a plane NOT to the person who's considering an airplane but
tot he person who's considering a sports car, then YES, you have a
chance of having a mediocre pilot and, moreover, you probably ARE
setting up a situation where the airplane is too much for the pilot.
> "If you DO have the money to buy a Cirrus and you DON'T get
yourself
> trained thoroughly and you DO treat it like a nice toy, then --
yes -
> - you are an idiot. "
That one I stand behnd. 100%. Sorry. I don't know how anyone can
logically and reasonably argue against thorough training for a plane
like the Cirrus. It's sheer idiocy.
I recognize those words are sharp. I also recognize you live in the
upper Midwest, perilously close to Minnesota where people don't
believe in saying what they mean, and the listener is left to come up
with their own reality. And, yeah, I LIVE here but I'm not FROM here.
They refer to it here as "Minnesota Nice," because they think warmth
is the absence of harshness, not the presence of warmth and/or
honesty.
It's a cultural thing and it's native to the upper Midwest. Back
East, we don't worry about those things. We mostly don't have time to
play linguistic games. Say what you willa bout the New Yorker, but
they don't waste time. They say they what they mean and don't sugar
coat with a bunch of gush.
Much more efficient, which is probably why New York is the seat of
all forms of power and influence. They don't waste time on b.s.
BC
BC
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Author: "Mike Ward" <mward@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 10:18 am PDT Link
"You have used a sea of words to inundate this topic. Basically, it's not
what you have actually said (wrote in this case), but what one (the reader)
takes from your written words".
I strongly concur... human communication is so often what's between the
words, tonality, and I'm not sure if Mr. Collins is aware of his
communication technique, but I write television for a living and this is
FULL of sub-text.
What I get from this is a feeling of loathing and absolute hatred for pilots
that haven't/or aren't trained to the absolute maximum of their (or their
aircrafts) ability (and of course that hasn't been said verbatim). I also
hear (again between the lines) ABSOLUTE ZERO TOLERANCE for pilots that have
made errors, when in hindsight that error could have been avoided. And of
course every error is avoided in hindsight.
When I read something, I take from it the meaning, and the feeling (despite
apparent geographic cultural generalizations we all do as humans). If I am
receiving incorrectly then it would appear each message would need a far
more detailed, clinical, and perhaps less human interpretation.
Mike W
Toronto
QB7
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Collins [mailto:bcollins@mpr.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 12:28 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: BRS and the Butterfly Effect
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "pepeborja925mb"
<pepeborja925mb@y...> wrote:
> You have used a sea of words to inundate this topic. Basically,
> it's not what you have actually said (wrote in this case), but what
> one (the reader) takes from your written words.
But the only way one reaches that conclusion is first to ignore the
words that actually WERE said, and then accept as reality that which
you choose to think I meant. That's on you, not me.
> I will leave you with two of your quotes. Now, please imagine
those
> words coming from someone else.
You have, indeed, learned well from the election campaign, for you
isolated two sentences and removed the context from them. As you
recall, I referred you to the Fallows article --w hich I'm going to
assume you never read -- and the marketing strategy that he indicated
(and which Klapmeier readily agrees) and noted that IF you're
marketing a plane NOT to the person who's considering an airplane but
tot he person who's considering a sports car, then YES, you have a
chance of having a mediocre pilot and, moreover, you probably ARE
setting up a situation where the airplane is too much for the pilot.
> "If you DO have the money to buy a Cirrus and you DON'T get
yourself
> trained thoroughly and you DO treat it like a nice toy, then --
yes -
> - you are an idiot. "
That one I stand behnd. 100%. Sorry. I don't know how anyone can
logically and reasonably argue against thorough training for a plane
like the Cirrus. It's sheer idiocy.
I recognize those words are sharp. I also recognize you live in the
upper Midwest, perilously close to Minnesota where people don't
believe in saying what they mean, and the listener is left to come up
with their own reality. And, yeah, I LIVE here but I'm not FROM here.
They refer to it here as "Minnesota Nice," because they think warmth
is the absence of harshness, not the presence of warmth and/or
honesty.
It's a cultural thing and it's native to the upper Midwest. Back
East, we don't worry about those things. We mostly don't have time to
play linguistic games. Say what you willa bout the New Yorker, but
they don't waste time. They say they what they mean and don't sugar
coat with a bunch of gush.
Much more efficient, which is probably why New York is the seat of
all forms of power and influence. They don't waste time on b.s.
BC
BC
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Author: "Don Hull" <rv7boy@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 10:26 am PDT Link
Gentlemen,
I have corresponded with both of you in the past and have high regard
for each of you. I don't always agree with either of you, but I
always feel I have been enlightened by engaging you in whatever the
topic was.
Now, I ask you to go eat lunch and let your keyboards cool. I really
think we have reached the point of diminishing returns with this
thread.
Let's get back to discussing RV7and7A's!!!
Don
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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 10:33 am PDT Link
> I strongly concur... human communication is so often what's between
the
> words, tonality, and I'm not sure if Mr. Collins is aware of his
> communication technique, but I write television for a living and
this is
> FULL of sub-text.
Mike, I'm sure you're a good TV writer. I don't know if you write
sitcoms or commercials or news, but I'm sure you're good at it. I'm a
news editor and I've been a journalist for 30 years and I'll be happy
to go over my credentials anytime.
But, Mike, one of the things _I_ don't do as a journalist is run
press releases as news stories and certainly not as gospel. Perhaps
they do in TV news, I don't know. I don't watch local TV news.
But in _my_ world, we ask questions, like "how did the accident
happen."
> What I get from this is a feeling of loathing and absolute hatred
for pilots
> that haven't/or aren't trained to the absolute maximum of their (or
their
> aircrafts) ability
Again, I don't know how it is in TV news, but in _my_ world (which
doesn't include CBS, by the way), we don't make things up and then
criticize people for something they never said. I have a loathing,
yes, for pilots who IGNORE their training and consistently exercise
bad judgment. I consider them bad pilots. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. But
I can't help but notice that THAT actual point is one that you guys
choose not to respond to....you know, the ACTUAL point, preferring
instead to charaterize it in a way that makes it easy to refute....I
don't know....SOMETHING....just so you can refute it, I guess.
(and of course that hasn't been said verbatim). I also
> hear (again between the lines) ABSOLUTE ZERO TOLERANCE for pilots
that have
> made errors, when in hindsight that error could have been avoided.
I can't help what you hear, you , might want to pay attention to what
you read. I have said, consistently, that pilots make mistakes. Who
would ever utter otherwise. But, Mike, -- and I hope this time you
hear or read it correctly -- we're not talking about minor lapses
hwere when a pilot runs his bird out of fuel. We're not talking about
minor lapses here when a pilot takes off at high altitude on a hot
day. We're not talking about minor lapses hwere when a pilot flies
overloaded.
Yes, for THOSE pilots, I DO have an absolute intolerance. And you now
what? So does the guy who gave you your checkride when you got your
certificate and so do the folks who gave you your exam.
So the qeustion isn't why _I_ have zero tolerance for those sorts of
people. The question is: why don't YOU?
//And of
> course every error is avoided in hindsight.
Part for the course. Something I never said.
> apparent geographic cultural generalizations we all do as humans).
If I am
> receiving incorrectly then it would appear each message would need
a far
> more detailed, clinical, and perhaps less human interpretation.
Or you could just read it literally.
This loathign of people who question other people is, at best,
disengenuous. Sometime in the next few months, you're likely to pass
an accident on a highway. Let's say it's a rear-end collission in
rush hour. You are more than likely going to look over and say, "I
wonder what happened." And then you'll see that someone rear ended
someone else and you're going to figure out not only what it
happened, but why it happened. Someone might've been tailgating. And
then you'll move on, somewhat the wiser because you've just had
reinforced what you already knew to be true.
And then also within the next year, Mike, you're going to look in
your rearview mirror and you know what? Some guy is going to be on
your a**. And you know what I think? I think your first reaction
isn't going to be, "gee, I hope has an airbag."
BC
BC
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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 10:42 am PDT Link
Agreed Don. Thanks. That'll give me time to figure out this Alodine
quandry of when it needs to be washed off and when it doesn't
Bc
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Don Hull" <rv7boy@y...> wrote:
> Gentlemen,
> I have corresponded with both of you in the past and have high
regard
> for each of you. I don't always agree with either of you, but I
> always feel I have been enlightened by engaging you in whatever the
> topic was.
> Now, I ask you to go eat lunch and let your keyboards cool. I
really
> think we have reached the point of diminishing returns with this
> thread.
> Let's get back to discussing RV7and7A's!!!
> Don
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Author: "Daryl Tolliver" <daryl.tolliver@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 11:02 am PDT Link
Thank you very much Don..... we needed that about 3 days ago.
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Hull [mailto:rv7boy@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 12:25 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: BRS and the Butterfly Effect
Gentlemen,
I have corresponded with both of you in the past and have high regard
for each of you. I don't always agree with either of you, but I
always feel I have been enlightened by engaging you in whatever the
topic was.
Now, I ask you to go eat lunch and let your keyboards cool. I really
think we have reached the point of diminishing returns with this
thread.
Let's get back to discussing RV7and7A's!!!
Don
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
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Author: "Don Hull" <rv7boy@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 11:07 am PDT Link
Let us know...because my alodine pen is in transit. I plan on using it
this weekend.
Don
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins" <bcollins@m...> wrote:
> Agreed Don. Thanks. That'll give me time to figure out this Alodine
> quandry of when it needs to be washed off and when it doesn't
>
> Bc
> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Don Hull" <rv7boy@y...> wrote:
> > Gentlemen,
> > I have corresponded with both of you in the past and have high
> regard
> > for each of you. I don't always agree with either of you, but I
> > always feel I have been enlightened by engaging you in whatever
the
> > topic was.
> > Now, I ask you to go eat lunch and let your keyboards cool. I
> really
> > think we have reached the point of diminishing returns with this
> > thread.
> > Let's get back to discussing RV7and7A's!!!
> > Don
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Author: "Roger A. Fuller" <fullerra@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 6:32 am PDT Link
And more importantly than any of our tolerance is tha fact that physics is
just as intolerable AND always has the last word!
RF
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