Home -> RV-7 and RV-7A topic: Thank-you kind sir!

Author: "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@...> Time: Tue Oct 5, 2004 3:57 pm PDT Link

Wow! Rich, your bedside manner and professionalism are overwhelming.
You would make a great teacher! I bet you are one heck of a hit with
the young eagles crowd. I can just see you answering some child's
question with, "You idiot that was a dumb question, I can't believe
you would actually ask a great licensed pilot like me such a stupid
question."

Ok, I got that off of my chest.

Yes I am a pilot and I am well aware of CG issues and the handling
issues resulting from CG shifts and overloading. Perhaps I didn't
frame my question in the proper context to exclude every conceivable
issue involved. It was a theoretical question, an "all else being
OK" question to encourage discussion of airframe loading issues. Not
everyone here has 100's of hours of experience so maybe someone else
could benefit from such a dumb question. I would say the non-
aeronautical engineer types building their first plane might have
lots of questions along these lines. Keep in mind that it isn't only
the high mileage pilots who build airplanes.

So maybe it is a dumb question. But otherwise supposedly smart
pilots make dumb assumptions and make bad decisions all of the time.
How about those who land an airliner at the wrong airport, those who
take off with ice on the wings, those who fly a plane into the ground
while troubleshooting a burnt out lightbulb, and those who commit
runway encursions and get run over, you get the idea. And how many
pilots have dumped it because they overloaded the plane thinking, "it
will be OK, the plane and I can handle it just this one time."

I know we all like to think we are infallable, but human nature is
such that we all have and we all will make bad decisions. The real
issue is not whether or not we will make a dumb decision but whether
or not that decision will put us in the ground or make a great hangar
story. Those pilots who say they have never made a dumb mistake or
have never made a dumb decision are flat out LIARS! Whether it be a
case of get-home-itis, feelings of immortality, absentmindedness,
overlooking a detail, or just plain stupidity, humans make bad
decisions all of the time.

Have a nice day!

P.S. I really had no intentions of putting my 400lb girlfriend in the
baggage compartment. Or was that 200lbs of baggage in the right
seat? Never mind! I withdraw the question :)

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Author: "Stan Jones" <stan.jones@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 1:30 am PDT Link

Good on yer Max, he needed that

-------Original Message-------

From: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:56:37
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Thank-you kind sir!

Wow! Rich, your bedside manner and professionalism are overwhelming.
You would make a great teacher! I bet you are one heck of a hit with
the young eagles crowd. I can just see you answering some child's
question with, "You idiot that was a dumb question, I can't believe
you would actually ask a great licensed pilot like me such a stupid
question."

Ok, I got that off of my chest.

Yes I am a pilot and I am well aware of CG issues and the handling
issues resulting from CG shifts and overloading. Perhaps I didn't
frame my question in the proper context to exclude every conceivable
issue involved. It was a theoretical question, an "all else being
OK" question to encourage discussion of airframe loading issues. Not
everyone here has 100's of hours of experience so maybe someone else
could benefit from such a dumb question. I would say the non-
aeronautical engineer types building their first plane might have
lots of questions along these lines. Keep in mind that it isn't only
the high mileage pilots who build airplanes.

So maybe it is a dumb question. But otherwise supposedly smart
pilots make dumb assumptions and make bad decisions all of the time.
How about those who land an airliner at the wrong airport, those who
take off with ice on the wings, those who fly a plane into the ground
while troubleshooting a burnt out lightbulb, and those who commit
runway encursions and get run over, you get the idea. And how many
pilots have dumped it because they overloaded the plane thinking, "it
will be OK, the plane and I can handle it just this one time."

I know we all like to think we are infallable, but human nature is
such that we all have and we all will make bad decisions. The real
issue is not whether or not we will make a dumb decision but whether
or not that decision will put us in the ground or make a great hangar
story. Those pilots who say they have never made a dumb mistake or
have never made a dumb decision are flat out LIARS! Whether it be a
case of get-home-itis, feelings of immortality, absentmindedness,
overlooking a detail, or just plain stupidity, humans make bad
decisions all of the time.

Have a nice day!

P.S. I really had no intentions of putting my 400lb girlfriend in the
baggage compartment. Or was that 200lbs of baggage in the right
seat? Never mind! I withdraw the question :)

Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net

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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 10:16 am PDT Link

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@a...>
wrote:
>
>If you are a certified pilot, you deserve the response you got from
me. When I teach students (I am a 30 year CFII) I am more concerned
with driving home the essentials that will keep them alive as a
pilot rather than just sweet talking them and collecting their money
for it. Apparently your flight instructor spent more time smiling at
you than teaching you simple aerodynamics. If I were teaching a
group of young chidren, which I have done, I would talk to them like
children and be very nice. After all they are not going to go out as
PIC the next day and kill innocent passengers with a lack of basic
pilot skills. I see you have withdrawn your question. I guess you
are embarassed enough to wish you hadn't posted it. I have some more
advice for you: Get the BRS parachute system for your plane because
you are going to need it some day.

> Wow! Rich, your bedside manner and professionalism are
overwhelming.
> You would make a great teacher! I bet you are one heck of a hit
with
> the young eagles crowd. I can just see you answering some child's
> question with, "You idiot that was a dumb question, I can't
believe
> you would actually ask a great licensed pilot like me such a
stupid
> question."
>
> Ok, I got that off of my chest.
>
> Yes I am a pilot and I am well aware of CG issues and the handling
> issues resulting from CG shifts and overloading. Perhaps I didn't
> frame my question in the proper context to exclude every
conceivable
> issue involved. It was a theoretical question, an "all else being
> OK" question to encourage discussion of airframe loading issues.
Not
> everyone here has 100's of hours of experience so maybe someone
else
> could benefit from such a dumb question. I would say the non-
> aeronautical engineer types building their first plane might have
> lots of questions along these lines. Keep in mind that it isn't
only
> the high mileage pilots who build airplanes.
>
> So maybe it is a dumb question. But otherwise supposedly smart
> pilots make dumb assumptions and make bad decisions all of the
time.
> How about those who land an airliner at the wrong airport, those
who
> take off with ice on the wings, those who fly a plane into the
ground
> while troubleshooting a burnt out lightbulb, and those who commit
> runway encursions and get run over, you get the idea. And how many
> pilots have dumped it because they overloaded the plane
thinking, "it
> will be OK, the plane and I can handle it just this one time."
>
> I know we all like to think we are infallable, but human nature is
> such that we all have and we all will make bad decisions. The real
> issue is not whether or not we will make a dumb decision but
whether
> or not that decision will put us in the ground or make a great
hangar
> story. Those pilots who say they have never made a dumb mistake or
> have never made a dumb decision are flat out LIARS! Whether it be
a
> case of get-home-itis, feelings of immortality, absentmindedness,
> overlooking a detail, or just plain stupidity, humans make bad
> decisions all of the time.
>
> Have a nice day!
>
> P.S. I really had no intentions of putting my 400lb girlfriend in
the
> baggage compartment. Or was that 200lbs of baggage in the right
> seat? Never mind! I withdraw the question :)

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Author: "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 11:12 am PDT Link

If I was paying a CFI to instruct me, and he addressed me in such an unprofessional
manner, I would fire him.

Moderators, I request that such posts be rejected. They have nothing to do with making
RV-7s, and they are unnecessarily rude and inflammatory.

Martin Gomez

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:

> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@a...>
> wrote:
> >
> >If you are a certified pilot, you deserve the response you got from
> me. When I teach students (I am a 30 year CFII) I am more concerned
> with driving home the essentials that will keep them alive as a
> pilot rather

Note: This old thread was truncated to save bandwidth.
One of the Moderators. (BTW, not sure I would have approved the original post.)

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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 2:22 pm PDT Link

Martin,
Actually, I have been "fired" by a student several times. I am an
instructor of the old school that was trained by a CFI that forced
me to confront my mistakes and wasn't afraid to embarass me to make
a point. When I came in unprepared for a lesson once he ridiculed me
and sent me home to study. I didn't make that mistake again. I
didn't fire him because I realized after cooling off that he was
right. There are a lot of new school instructors that are afraid to
be anything but PC in front of their students. I think PC has done a
lot more harm than good in our society. One student of mine thought
he knew more than me so he went out and found a new CFI. He
completed almost all of his training and apparently was happy with
the new CFI. But, one day this student pilot took a friend of his up
in a C-150 to show off a little. He ended up losing control of the
plane and augering in, killing both.

There are a few very thin skinned people in this group that only
want sunshine blown their way apparently. They want only to be
talked to like a child because that is their mentality level. When
it comes to training pilots, I take it very serious and am happy to
weed out those who don't have the motivation to stick with what is a
tuff course. If they don't have good judgment, I don't just overlook
it and press on.

I hope the rest of you will forgive me and remember that your CFI
too was a bit hard on you at times, but in the end when you got that
certificate you were proud and appreciated the tough training he or
she put you through.

I will tell you another example of a pilot trained by PC instructor.
He was flying a beaver on floats here in Alaska with a load of
tourists. He attempted a take off on a very windy day from a remote
fishing location. No preflight breifing was given to the PAX. He
ended up flipping the plane in icy water. I was called to go rescue
the people. By the time I got there and landed in the same rough
conditions the people were near death from hypothermia. They were
scared to death to get into the float plane with me and take off
again, but I knew they wouldn't last through night there. I made
them put on life preservers and throughly briefed them on emergency
procedures. The takeoff was scary but uneventful and when we landed
back in King Salmon, one of the passengers pulled me aside and told
me: " You know, the other pilot didn't even tell us about the live
preservers that were stuck away there in the seat backs." Three of
these people had almost drowned because they hadn't been briefed by
their "professional pilot".

I am sure you think that pilot is "professional" unlike me.

So please excuse me, Martin, if I am not persuaded by your
sensitivity needs. It is just possible that by embarassing this guy
I may have actually saved his life. Over a 5000 hour career as a
bush pilot and CFI, I have encountered many bad situations and
learned by making my share of mistakes. But, I survived, because
when I made a mistake, my training allowed me to correct myself
before the situation got worse. Too many pilots start with a lack of
knowledge in the basics, then when they make a mistake it just
compounds and gets worse.

Maybe you thin skinned people should identify your self as such so
you can be treated more like a child. Maybe you should start up a
new group that is just full of sunshine! And if the majority of the
people here want me to get out, then I will do so too. But until
then I am not going to be scared off by a few children who made it
through pilot school by finding a PC CFI who only cared about the
money you payed him.

And moderator, if you don't want to give me the right to defend
myself just go ahead and delete this response. I will get the
message.

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@c...> wrote:
>
> If I was paying a CFI to instruct me, and he addressed me in such
an unprofessional
> manner, I would fire him.
>
> Moderators, I request that such posts be rejected. They have
nothing to do with making
> RV-7s, and they are unnecessarily rude and inflammatory.
>
> Martin Gomez
>
> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:

> > --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@a...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >If you are a certified pilot, you deserve the response you got
from
> > me. When I teach students (I am a 30 year CFII) I am more
concerned
> > with driving home the essentials that will keep them alive as a
> > pilot rather
>
> Note: This old thread was truncated to save bandwidth.
> One of the Moderators. (BTW, not sure I would have approved the
original post.)

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Author: "Mike Newall" <a1b6@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 2:24 pm PDT Link

Richard, Maxwell - Calm Down !

Max, you had a question, you were brave enough to prefix it with the
dumb quote - well done.

Richard, you rose to the bait, snapped the damned thing off the
line - chill out, there are many folk out there with dumb questions,
I see them, I fly with them, sometimes I even ask them ! By the way,
I am a 10,000 hour Airbus 330 Captain as well as little airpane
pilot.

Compared to our RV site in England, this is Nirvana, you ask
technical questions, you get answers - us, we spend bandwidth
bitching about our PFA (EAA but 50 years out of date). Hell, they
won't let us do any mods without paying a $70 fee and then giving a
2 nonth wait before then asking for stress calcs and details of the
far end of a fart.

Gents (and Roberta et al) enjoy the land of the free - I get the
opportunity to visit and drink it in, I wish we could do 50% of the
stuff you can.

Mike

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Author: "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 2:45 pm PDT Link

CFII--Wow, now I am really impressed! I would think a CFII would
have a little more patience, tact, and professionalism than you have.
But I guess these aren't prereqs to becoming a flight instructor
althought they are good qualities for being a human.

But I do thank-you for the advice none-the-less. I'll ponder the BRS
recommendation! I think BRSs are cool and I wouldn't mind having one.
Such advice coming from such an experienced, professional, and
respected person such as yourself means a whole lot to me. I
appreciate you taking the time to set me straight and help me see the
errors of my ways. Looking back I don't see how I could have possibly
come up with such a stupid question. You are right I deserved it and
you gave it to me right between the eyes. I learned a whole lot from
you and I am a much better person now thanks to you. You are
certainly the perfect example of what a CFII should be.

Hey wait a minute! I just looked all through the Private Pilot's
Handbook I got during my ground school and you know what, there isn't
one word in there about aerobatic flight and how aerobatic g forces
relate to non-aerobatic structural loads. And there isn't anything
in there about calculating maximum gross weights and flight
characteristics of airplanes. Maybe I missed that part or maybe you
are working from a different Private Pilot Handbook than I am.
Perhaps you have the new and updated Private Pilot and Aeronautical
Engineer's Handbook. Or maybe these topics are only covered with
top gun CFII's such as yourself. If you don't mind, would you please
provide me the ISBN of the Private Pilot Handbook your are referring
to so I can learn all about this stuff and be worthy of coversing
with you? I am really very sorry but I honestly did not know that
these topics were part of the Private Pilot requirements. I'll do
better next time I swear.

Embarrassed? Heck no! I've been around a while and it takes more
than a self-rightous pompous jerk like you to embarrass me.

Again, I appreciate your input but please be so kind as to not
respond to any of my posts going forward. For some small reason I
have a feeling your responses and advice are not going to mean much
to me and possibly a few others on the forum.

Have a good day! And maybe I'll see ya at LOE. I will be flying in on
Friday morning about 9AM so you may want to stay away from the state
of New Mexico during that time. You'll be able to easily recognize
me, I'll be the one with the 400lb lady sitting on the tail with the
BRS strapped to her back. :)

Take care and lighten up a little!

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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 3:19 pm PDT Link

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@a...> wrote:
> Perhaps you have the new and updated Private Pilot and Aeronautical
> Engineer's Handbook. Or maybe these topics are only covered with
> top gun CFII's such as yourself. If you don't mind, would you
please

I understand your frustration, but I think what CFIs (I'm not one)
teach to is actually the Practical Test Standards. One of the
requirements of flying is to be sure the weight and balance data is
in the airplane, and you have to be able to explain it on the PTS.

Also one of the required tasks for the student is to exhibit
knowledge regarding aircraft limitations, and to compute weight and
balance.

I don't believe aerobatics is in the PTS at all.

As for the rest, I have never found berating a student to be a
particular effective method of teaching. I had a great CFI. He knew
that building confidence was a key part of building knowledge. Before
people can learn to do things, they have to believe they CAN.

I'd be interested if other people have this same experience but, you
know, when I fly, I can STILL hear the voice of my CFI (and
subsequent CFIs who handled my BFR) at almost every stage of flight.
I suppose if you're a CFI, you might want to ask yourself what sort
of voice you want that student to remember years from now when he or
she is flying?

But you know who one of the biggest beneficiaries of my flight
training experience was. My two teenagers. When I taught them to
drive.

Required RV content. From what I undrstand, guys like Mike Seeger are
spectacular teachers for those transitioning up to RVs. From what I
gather, part of his technique does not include telling the student
how stupid they are. I doubt we'd have as many capable and
conscientious RV pilots if he did.

Do not ever -- ever -- feel any question is too stupid to be posted here. This is a very helpful group of folks who reveal their intelligence and helpfulness many times every day.

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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 3:20 pm PDT Link

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:

> Maybe you thin skinned people should identify your self as such so
> you can be treated more like a child. Maybe you should start up a
> new group that is just full of sunshine!

This list actually started, as I recall, because the RVList had
gotten pretty hijacked. Over the last few years, I think it has
really distinguished itself for the quality of the advice that is
given.

One of the things, Rich, that you'll find here is AFTER people are
finished building, they're STILL on this list. Their work is pretty
much done. But guys like Dan and Cary and women like Roberta, are
still here, pulling the rest of us through for, apparently, no other
reason that they remembered what it was like to be looking at some
plans and not "get it," and, yes, feeling stupid.

So Doug was able to create a list that stressed that sort of attitude
and it has worked quite well. Yeah, we have brushfires every now and
again but it still feels like a community, not of people looking for
sunshine, but of people who have a shared experience in building
these aircraft.

There's a difference between being tough, and just being mean.

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Author: "Richard & Roberta Hegy" <rhegy@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 3:58 pm PDT Link

Well said, Bob!

Roberta
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Collins
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 5:18 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:

> Maybe you thin skinned people should identify your self as such so
> you can be treated more like a child. Maybe you should start up a
> new group that is just full of sunshine!

This list actually started, as I recall, because the RVList had
gotten pretty hijacked. Over the last few years, I think it has
really distinguished itself for the quality of the advice that is
given.

One of the things, Rich, that you'll find here is AFTER people are
finished building, they're STILL on this list. Their work is pretty
much done. But guys like Dan and Cary and women like Roberta, are
still here, pulling the rest of us through for, apparently, no other
reason that they remembered what it was like to be looking at some
plans and not "get it," and, yes, feeling stupid.

So Doug was able to create a list that stressed that sort of attitude
and it has worked quite well. Yeah, we have brushfires every now and
again but it still feels like a community, not of people looking for
sunshine, but of people who have a shared experience in building
these aircraft.

There's a difference between being tough, and just being mean.

Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 3:58 pm PDT Link

I may not be politically correct enough for you but I won't stoop to
calling you names. And I do respect all the people on this group
whether they are new to flying or old head 10,000 hour airbus
pilots. And I won't flame at anyone. The sad fact is that RV pilots
continue to crash airplanes and it cannot be blamed on poor design.
IT has to rest with the PIC. If we can educate pilots in this RV-7
group and save one life, what better purpose can the group serve? We
need to all be able to discuss flying frankly without being so thin
skinned about it. Heck, my IP in the USAF used to embarrass me all
the time in front of other flight members. He did it to all his
students though, and a couple of them washed out of the program
maybe because they couldn't take it. Another IP in the squadron, who
was just the nicest guy you would ever want to meet, went out with a
student one day and let the stud lose control of the plane. They
spun it in all the way from 32,000 feet and never pulled the
ejection handles! I am sure he didn't want to embarrass his student.

I would really appreciate it if the rest of the pilots in this group
would take time to read your original post. Then tell me if they
would like to be a passenger some day with you in the left seat as
PIC.

I will continue to call it as I see it and those of you who don't
like it can just pass over my posts and not read them. I do the same
thing when I get tired of reading posts from someone who can't
figure out on his own what type of rivet to put in a hole. Van's
builder's manual is great for teaching us how to build if you will
just take the time to READ the INSTRUCTIONS !!!!

For those of you just tuning in, you really need to go read this
guy's original posting. He still apparently does not understand how
to load an airplane because "HIS" pilot manual didn't discuss it!
Apparently his CFI never talked about such trivial things either.
But then "HIS" CFI was a professional, not like me!

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@a...>
wrote:

> CFII--Wow, now I am really impressed! I would think a CFII would
> have a little more patience, tact, and professionalism than you
have.
> But I guess these aren't prereqs to becoming a flight instructor
> althought they are good qualities for being a human.
>
> But I do thank-you for the advice none-the-less. I'll ponder the
BRS
> recommendation! I think BRSs are cool and I wouldn't mind having
one.
> Such advice coming from such an experienced, professional, and
> respected person such as yourself means a whole lot to me. I
> appreciate you taking the time to set me straight and help me see
the
> errors of my ways. Looking back I don't see how I could have
possibly
> come up with such a stupid question. You are right I deserved it
and
> you gave it to me right between the eyes. I learned a whole lot
from
> you and I am a much better person now thanks to you. You are
> certainly the perfect example of what a CFII should be.
>
> Hey wait a minute! I just looked all through the Private Pilot's
> Handbook I got during my ground school and you know what, there
isn't
> one word in there about aerobatic flight and how aerobatic g
forces
> relate to non-aerobatic structural loads. And there isn't
anything
> in there about calculating maximum gross weights and flight
> characteristics of airplanes. Maybe I missed that part or maybe
you
> are working from a different Private Pilot Handbook than I am.
> Perhaps you have the new and updated Private Pilot and
Aeronautical
> Engineer's Handbook. Or maybe these topics are only covered with
> top gun CFII's such as yourself. If you don't mind, would you
please
> provide me the ISBN of the Private Pilot Handbook your are
referring
> to so I can learn all about this stuff and be worthy of coversing
> with you? I am really very sorry but I honestly did not know that
> these topics were part of the Private Pilot requirements. I'll do
> better next time I swear.
>
> Embarrassed? Heck no! I've been around a while and it takes more
> than a self-rightous pompous jerk like you to embarrass me.
>
> Again, I appreciate your input but please be so kind as to not
> respond to any of my posts going forward. For some small reason I
> have a feeling your responses and advice are not going to mean
much
> to me and possibly a few others on the forum.
>
> Have a good day! And maybe I'll see ya at LOE. I will be flying in
on
> Friday morning about 9AM so you may want to stay away from the
state
> of New Mexico during that time. You'll be able to easily recognize
> me, I'll be the one with the 400lb lady sitting on the tail with
the
> BRS strapped to her back. :)
>
> Take care and lighten up a little!

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Author: "Kevin H." <onesickpup@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 4:19 pm PDT Link

And it really sucks that one of the Moderators keeps this fire burning... It would have died, except Bob kept it going... JEEZ!!!!!!!

DOUG!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Collins
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 6:18 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:

> Maybe you thin skinned people should identify your self as such so
> you can be treated more like a child. Maybe you should start up a
> new group that is just full of sunshine!

This list actually started, as I recall, because the RVList had
gotten pretty hijacked. Over the last few years, I think it has
really distinguished itself for the quality of the advice that is
given.

One of the things, Rich, that you'll find here is AFTER people are
finished building, they're STILL on this list. Their work is pretty
much done. But guys like Dan and Cary and women like Roberta, are
still here, pulling the rest of us through for, apparently, no other
reason that they remembered what it was like to be looking at some
plans and not "get it," and, yes, feeling stupid.

So Doug was able to create a list that stressed that sort of attitude
and it has worked quite well. Yeah, we have brushfires every now and
again but it still feels like a community, not of people looking for
sunshine, but of people who have a shared experience in building
these aircraft.

There's a difference between being tough, and just being mean.

Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net

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Author: "Peter Costick" <peter9545@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 4:19 pm PDT Link

This thread started because someone asked a question, maybe it was a
dumb question as they themselves described it (personally I don't
agree that asked questions are dumb but then I am an old softie at
heart). Generally it is OK to ask questions in this group, even about
the size of rivet to put in a hole, even if it is in the instructions
should you read them to any acceptable standard. The purpose of the
group is to support it's members, in building and yes in flying, and I
won't take sides other than to say that personally I have never
learned anything from people who use humiliation to teach (can that be
done?)

I would say to the group that we should continue to encourage
discussion, and continue to provide a forum where we do not hesitate
to share thoughts and concerns relevant to what we are trying to do -
build aeroplanes. I have made some really stupid errors in building.
and this forum has helped me to identify and understand them better so
I can correct them. If I had suffered humiliation for asking I would
just have stopped participating.

Regarding the posts to date (not this one) - is there really any more
of value to be said. Perhaps we could move on.

Peter

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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 4:46 pm PDT Link

Well Bob,

I am one of the builders who have completed one RV and working on
another and ,yes, I am here mainly to help others, although I learn
alot from the posts here too. I don't know it all and am not afraid
to get advice from others. If you take the time to read my original
answer to his posting you will see that I was not flaming or
disrespectful of him. I DID agree with him that it was a dumb
question only because HE admitted it. Otherwise I wouldn't have even
said that. This guy claims to be a certified pilot and as an old CFI
I just was amazed by his lack of understanding. If he had stated
that he was new to flying or even a student pilot I would have gone
much more gently with him. I put it to you again, after reading his
post would you want to go up flying with him as PIC in the left seat?
As a bush pilot in Alaska, I have seen many tragic accidents where
tourists have been killed after they got into a plane after being
glad handed by their pilot only to be run into the side of a
mountain in bad weather. As a search and rescue pilot I have found
their remains and other times picked up lucky survivors.

Maybe I need to go start my own group called "Not PC RV-7 group" for
people who are not afraid of frank talk. Maybe I will be the only
one in it if people just want to hear comforting thoughts like how
the BRS will save you even if you do decide to go flying into that
cloud without an IFR rating. I've got news for you people, flying
airplanes is not a game ! It is serious stuff. I have used a
parachute myself to get out of a burning airplane so I know the
value of a chute in the right place and the right installation and
the right purpose. For some pilots the BRS system is the right
choice to make. I think it is great that people are experimenting
with the installation of it. But it is not for every one for sure.
Maybe I have just seen too many tragic results up close over the
years and am old and senile, but you know what? I am still here
alive. They aren't. If you think it is "mean" to call someone out on
their lack of knowledge, just try picking up pieces of bodies off
the ground knowing that it was all caused by a "pilot" who was
having a "sunshine day" in the clouds with a mountain directly in
front of him.

I am retired now as CFI and for sure I am not trying to build new
pilots and give confidence to student pilots anymore, just trying to
save one more life among those people who are already out there
flying. This guy is one of those people. If I got some of you low
time pilots aroused enough to go check your pilot training manual
again on A/C loading then good.

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins" <bcollins@m...> wrote:

> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:
>
> > Maybe you thin skinned people should identify your self as such
so
> > you can be treated more like a child. Maybe you should start up
a
> > new group that is just full of sunshine!

> This list actually started, as I recall, because the RVList had
> gotten pretty hijacked. Over the last few years, I think it has
> really distinguished itself for the quality of the advice that is
> given.

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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 5:05 pm PDT Link

Peter,

I agree with you. Humiliation is no way to teach a student and I
made it a policy of mine, as a CFI, not to do that even though it
had been done to me by other CFI's. This guy is no student and he
didn't hire me to teach him anything. I am just voluntarily trying
to save the lives of his future passengers. I agree that this should
be the end of this thread (assuming no one else out there attacks my
professionalism as a CFI) So, I promise to be a good boy now. (for a
while) And I agree fully that dumb questions should be welcome here.
And, as always, I will be helpful and respectful to people who are
new to building OR flying and actually have an excuse to post
such "dumb questions".

Rich
Eagle River, Alaska
RV-7A wing (RV-8 completed)

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Costick" <peter9545@y...>
wrote:

> This thread started because someone asked a question, maybe it was
a
> dumb question as they themselves described it (personally I don't
> agree that asked questions are dumb but then I am an old softie at
> heart). Generally it is OK to ask questions in this group, even
about
> the size of rivet to put in a hole, even if it is in the
instructions
> should you read them to any acceptable standard. The purpose of the
> group is to support it's members, in building and yes in flying,
and I
> won't take sides other than to say that personally I have never
> learned anything from people who use humiliation to teach (can
that be
> done?)
>
> I would say to the group that we should continue to encourage
> discussion, and continue to provide a forum where we do not
hesitate
> to share thoughts and concerns relevant to what we are trying to
do -
> build aeroplanes. I have made some really stupid errors in
building.
> and this forum has helped me to identify and understand them
better so
> I can correct them. If I had suffered humiliation for asking I
would
> just have stopped participating.
>
> Regarding the posts to date (not this one) - is there really any
more
> of value to be said. Perhaps we could move on.
>
> Peter

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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 4:59 pm PDT Link

Pup:

This thread is a different thread than the one you're referring
to, which we've all agreed has reached the end of the line.
You can usually tell by noting the subject. My posting in thread
here was merely to give Rich a history of the group, and let him
know why we're not going to start another group.

Hope that helps.

Happy building.

BC

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin H." <onesickpup@e...> wrote:
>
> And it really sucks that one of the Moderators keeps this fire
burning... It would have died, except Bob kept it going...
JEEZ!!!!!!!
>
> DOUG!!!!!!!!!!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Collins
> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 6:18 PM
> Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...>
wrote:
>
> > Maybe you thin skinned people should identify your self as
such so
> > you can be treated more like a child. Maybe you should start
up a
> > new group that is just full of sunshine!

> This list actually started, as I recall, because the RVList had
> gotten pretty hijacked. Over the last few years, I think it has
> really distinguished itself for the quality of the advice that
is
> given.
>
> One of the things, Rich, that you'll find here is AFTER people
are
> finished building, they're STILL on this list. Their work is
pretty
> much done. But guys like Dan and Cary and women like Roberta,
are
> still here, pulling the rest of us through for, apparently, no
other
> reason that they remembered what it was like to be looking at
some
> plans and not "get it," and, yes, feeling stupid.
>
> So Doug was able to create a list that stressed that sort of
attitude
> and it has worked quite well. Yeah, we have brushfires every now
and
> again but it still feels like a community, not of people looking
for
> sunshine, but of people who have a shared experience in building
> these aircraft.
>
> There's a difference between being tough, and just being mean.

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Author: Dirk Christie <Dirk_Christie@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 5:09 pm PDT Link

I think I see both sides of the issue of the original weight & balance
and pulling g's question. Rich is correct in that overloading the
baggage compartment will result in a dangerous aft C.G. condition,
unless there is a corresponding weight forward of C.G. compensation.
There isn't, under Maxwell's "dumb question". When pulling g's in a
properly loaded aircraft, the weight and collective moment arms forward
of the C.C. are balancing out the weight and collective moment arms of
the plane/loads aft of the C.G., resulting in safe flight if the g
limititations are observed.

Overloading the baggage compartment may stress the airframe equivelently
as pulling g's, but there's no compensating weight forward of the C.G.
to save the aircraft from the longitudinal instability caused by the
rear of C.G. envelope violation.

Thus, the way I see it, Rich is trying to save anyone from the dangerous
misconception that they can exceed the C.G. envelope without inviting
potentially hazardous/fatal results! Like Maxwell, I too try (and often
succeed) to fathom the commen sense, intuitive meaning of aircraft
structural data. I believe he was only advancing a theory for
discussion and not planning to bring lead bars or Miss Piggy along in
the back!

Peter Costick wrote:

> This thread started because someone asked a question, maybe it was a
> dumb question as they themselves described it (personally I don't
> agree that asked questions are dumb but then I am an old softie at
> heart). Generally it is OK to ask questions in this group, even about
> the size of rivet to put in a hole, even if it is in the instructions
> should you read them to any acceptable standard. The purpose of the
> group is to support it's members, in building and yes in flying, and I
>
> won't take sides other than to say that personally I have never
> learned anything from people who use humiliation to teach (can that be
>
> done?)
>
> I would say to the group that we should continue to encourage
> discussion, and continue to provide a forum where we do not hesitate
> to share thoughts and concerns relevant to what we are trying to do -
> build aeroplanes. I have made some really stupid errors in building.
> and this forum has helped me to identify and understand them better so
>
> I can correct them. If I had suffered humiliation for asking I would
> just have stopped participating.
>
> Regarding the posts to date (not this one) - is there really any more
> of value to be said. Perhaps we could move on.
>
> Peter

> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net

> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Author: "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 5:12 pm PDT Link

OK, I'll take you up on that. I've copied the original "dumb question" below, and let's see if
there's something in there that would make me not want to fly with him as PIC:

"This is probably a dumb question but still the thought seems
reasonable to my pea brain. Please educate me on what I am
overlooking or where I am all wet."

So far, we have someone who recognizes the boundaries of his knowledge. Pilots should
know their limitations, so that's a good thing.

"Vans engineers the aircraft for 6g aerobatic use. So therefore a
200lb pilot pulling 6g's exerts buttock forces of 1200lbs on the seat
cushion. Likewise a 100lb baggage load exerts a force of 600lbs on
the baggage compartment floor."

He knows how to multiply...that's another important pilot skill.

"If a pilot is planning a leisurely cross-country flight without
aerobatics involved, and if a pilot doesn't take any actions and if
the plane doesn't enounter any turbulence such that the maximum G
force exerted on the aircraft is 3g's or less, then concieveably the
pilot could weight 400lbs and the baggage could weigh 200 lbs and the
airframe would be subjected to no more force than in the previous
example."

He is actually correct here. Note that he's asking how much FORCE the airframe is
subjected to. He didn't say anything about actually flying this way...it's all nice and
hypothetical and safe. Plus it's all heavily caveat-ed with "no aerobatics" and "no
turbulence."

"So in low G situations, the RVs could be capable of carrying a much
larger payload than advertised."

I don't read here that he is poised for takeoff at the end of the runway, with a flock of
overweight friends and all of his worldy belongings. Did you?

"Obviously, take-off, climb, and landing performance would suffer as
well but with a long enough runway I would think things should work
just fine."

He seems to be aware of the performance issues.

"No/Yes?"

Now he's doing what I think this group is all about: asking questions of those who know
more. So I see nothing in here that would preclude me flying with him.

A better question is would I fly with you, Rich?

Martin

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:
>
> I put it to you again, after reading his
> post would you want to go up flying with him as PIC in the left seat?

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Author: "Richard & Roberta Hegy" <rhegy@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 6:02 pm PDT Link

At the risk of extending this "Dumb Thread" loading the plane as described, 400 lb pilot and 200 lbs in the baggage compt. will, in all likelihood, result in an aft CG. Do the math. You'll have to set Miss Piggy on the cowl.

Roberta

Let's please let this DIE!!!! My finger is getting sore from deleting all these messages.
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Gomez
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:08 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

OK, I'll take you up on that. I've copied the original "dumb question" below, and let's see if
there's something in there that would make me not want to fly with him as PIC:

"This is probably a dumb question but still the thought seems
reasonable to my pea brain. Please educate me on what I am
overlooking or where I am all wet."

So far, we have someone who recognizes the boundaries of his knowledge. Pilots should
know their limitations, so that's a good thing.

"Vans engineers the aircraft for 6g aerobatic use. So therefore a
200lb pilot pulling 6g's exerts buttock forces of 1200lbs on the seat
cushion. Likewise a 100lb baggage load exerts a force of 600lbs on
the baggage compartment floor."

He knows how to multiply...that's another important pilot skill.

"If a pilot is planning a leisurely cross-country flight without
aerobatics involved, and if a pilot doesn't take any actions and if
the plane doesn't enounter any turbulence such that the maximum G
force exerted on the aircraft is 3g's or less, then concieveably the
pilot could weight 400lbs and the baggage could weigh 200 lbs and the
airframe would be subjected to no more force than in the previous
example."

He is actually correct here. Note that he's asking how much FORCE the airframe is
subjected to. He didn't say anything about actually flying this way...it's all nice and
hypothetical and safe. Plus it's all heavily caveat-ed with "no aerobatics" and "no
turbulence."

"So in low G situations, the RVs could be capable of carrying a much
larger payload than advertised."

I don't read here that he is poised for takeoff at the end of the runway, with a flock of
overweight friends and all of his worldy belongings. Did you?

"Obviously, take-off, climb, and landing performance would suffer as
well but with a long enough runway I would think things should work
just fine."

He seems to be aware of the performance issues.

"No/Yes?"

Now he's doing what I think this group is all about: asking questions of those who know
more. So I see nothing in here that would preclude me flying with him.

A better question is would I fly with you, Rich?

Martin

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:
>
> I put it to you again, after reading his
> post would you want to go up flying with him as PIC in the left seat?

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www.vansaircraft.net

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Author: "rv7doug" <rv7doug@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 6:14 pm PDT Link

Martin,
I am going to respond to your post because it is incorrect. And
please do not take it personaly, I am just trying to help.
Do not relate the weight and balance to g load.
You should never ever exceed your max weight recommended by the
manufacturer. G's the plane can handle in flight are not constant.
a temporary 6g load in a loop is not the same as a 3g weight load
straight and level.. and wow, a 3g constant load in a turn, look out,
if you are overloaded and slow your in the ground quick.
Do not ever think that you can load the plane heavier than it is
designed to be, not even a pound.
Please read some of the accident reports..on the FAA site. Many
pilots have died due to overloaded aircraft.
RV aircraft are never able to carry a much larger payload than
advertised no matter what the g load.
Dont ever push it... or think you can.
Sincerely hope I helped.
Take care and good luck with the plane.
Doug Brinlee

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@c...> wrote:

> OK, I'll take you up on that. I've copied the original "dumb
question" below, and let's see if
> there's something in there that would make me not want to fly with
him as PIC:
>
> "This is probably a dumb question but still the thought seems
> reasonable to my pea brain. Please educate me on what I am
> overlooking or where I am all wet."
>
> So far, we have someone who recognizes the boundaries of his
knowledge. Pilots should
> know their limitations, so that's a good thing.
>
> "Vans engineers the aircraft for 6g aerobatic use. So therefore a
> 200lb pilot pulling 6g's exerts buttock forces of 1200lbs on the
seat
> cushion. Likewise a 100lb baggage load exerts a force of 600lbs on
> the baggage compartment floor."
>
> He knows how to multiply...that's another important pilot skill.
>
> "If a pilot is planning a leisurely cross-country flight without
> aerobatics involved, and if a pilot doesn't take any actions and if
> the plane doesn't enounter any turbulence such that the maximum G
> force exerted on the aircraft is 3g's or less, then concieveably the
> pilot could weight 400lbs and the baggage could weigh 200 lbs and
the
> airframe would be subjected to no more force than in the previous
> example."
>
> He is actually correct here. Note that he's asking how much FORCE
the airframe is
> subjected to. He didn't say anything about actually flying this
way...it's all nice and
> hypothetical and safe. Plus it's all heavily caveat-ed with "no
aerobatics" and "no
> turbulence."
>
> "So in low G situations, the RVs could be capable of carrying a much
> larger payload than advertised."
>
> I don't read here that he is poised for takeoff at the end of the
runway, with a flock of
> overweight friends and all of his worldy belongings. Did you?
>
> "Obviously, take-off, climb, and landing performance would suffer as
> well but with a long enough runway I would think things should work
> just fine."
>
> He seems to be aware of the performance issues.
>
> "No/Yes?"
>
> Now he's doing what I think this group is all about: asking
questions of those who know
> more. So I see nothing in here that would preclude me flying with
him.
>
> A better question is would I fly with you, Rich?
>
> Martin
>
> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I put it to you again, after reading his
> > post would you want to go up flying with him as PIC in the left
seat?

Author: "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 7:13 pm PDT Link

Thanks. No, clearly, I'm not proposing to put all my friends and all of my worldly
belongins in my RV-7!

I was just trying to point out that the original "dumb question" wasn't a proposed course
of action...just someone trying to learn, who got an earful but not an answer.

I still don't think we've answered his question, by the way.

Just to be clear, I firmly believe in the following:

- Stay within the weight/CG envelope the manufacturer designed to
- Do the weight-and-balance math preflight
- Know what your'e doing before you modify your homebuilt
- Ask questions, even dumb ones
- Treat each other with respect, so that people feel free to ask dumb questions

Rich, you said you wanted to save people's lives? OK, then let people ask dumb
questions...if we create an environment where people are afraid to ask questions for fear
of being humiliated, they may stop asking.

So thaks Doug for trying to keep me from killing myself!

Martin

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "rv7doug" <rv7doug@y...> wrote:

> Martin,
> I am going to respond to your post because it is incorrect. And
> please do not take it personaly, I am just trying to help.
> Do not relate the weight and balance to g load.
> You should never ever exceed your max weight recommended by the
> manufacturer. G's the plane can handle in flight are not constant.
> a temporary 6g load in a loop is not the same as a 3g weight load
> straight and level.. and wow, a 3g constant load in a turn, look out,
> if you are overloaded and slow your in the ground quick.
> Do not ever think that you can load the plane heavier than it is
> designed to be, not even a pound.
> Please read some of the accident reports..on the FAA site. Many
> pilots have died due to overloaded aircraft.
> RV aircraft are never able to carry a much larger payload than
> advertised no matter what the g load.
> Dont ever push it... or think you can.
> Sincerely hope I helped.
> Take care and good luck with the plane.
> Doug Brinlee

> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@c...> wrote:

> > OK, I'll take you up on that. I've copied the original "dumb
> question" below, and let's see if
> > there's something in there that would make me not want to fly with
> him as PIC:
> >
> > "This is probably a dumb question but still the thought seems
> > reasonable to my pea brain. Please educate me on what I am
> > overlooking or where I am all wet."
> >
> > So far, we have someone who recognizes the boundaries of his
> knowledge. Pilots should
> > know their limitations, so that's a good thing.
> >
> > "Vans engineers the aircraft for 6g aerobatic use. So therefore a
> > 200lb pilot pulling 6g's exerts buttock forces of 1200lbs on the
> seat
> > cushion. Likewise a 100lb baggage load exerts a force of 600lbs on
> > the baggage compartment floor."
> >
> > He knows how to multiply...that's another important pilot skill.
> >
> > "If a pilot is planning a leisurely cross-country flight without
> > aerobatics involved, and if a pilot doesn't take any actions and if
> > the plane doesn't enounter any turbulence such that the maximum G
> > force exerted on the aircraft is 3g's or less, then concieveably the
> > pilot could weight 400lbs and the baggage could weigh 200 lbs and
> the
> > airframe would be subjected to no more force than in the previous
> > example."
> >
> > He is actually correct here. Note that he's asking how much FORCE
> the airframe is
> > subjected to. He didn't say anything about actually flying this
> way...it's all nice and
> > hypothetical and safe. Plus it's all heavily caveat-ed with "no
> aerobatics" and "no
> > turbulence."
> >
> > "So in low G situations, the RVs could be capable of carrying a much
> > larger payload than advertised."
> >
> > I don't read here that he is poised for takeoff at the end of the
> runway, with a flock of
> > overweight friends and all of his worldy belongings. Did you?
> >
> > "Obviously, take-off, climb, and landing performance would suffer as
> > well but with a long enough runway I would think things should work
> > just fine."
> >
> > He seems to be aware of the performance issues.
> >
> > "No/Yes?"
> >
> > Now he's doing what I think this group is all about: asking
> questions of those who know
> > more. So I see nothing in here that would preclude me flying with
> him.
> >
> > A better question is would I fly with you, Rich?
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I put it to you again, after reading his
> > > post would you want to go up flying with him as PIC in the left
> seat?

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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 7:24 pm PDT Link

I am sorry you feel that way Martin, if you would rather fly with
him in his RV with 200 lbs of baggage then please feel free to do
so. I really do care about you and others here. I care even more
about innocent passengers who go flying with pilots like that. So go
ahead and make that flight but please do not fly up here in Alaska
anywhere near my house !

Rich

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@c...> wrote:

> OK, I'll take you up on that. I've copied the original "dumb
question" below, and let's see if
> there's something in there that would make me not want to fly with
him as PIC:
>
> "This is probably a dumb question but still the thought seems
> reasonable to my pea brain. Please educate me on what I am
> overlooking or where I am all wet."
>
> So far, we have someone who recognizes the boundaries of his
knowledge. Pilots should
> know their limitations, so that's a good thing.
>
> "Vans engineers the aircraft for 6g aerobatic use. So therefore a
> 200lb pilot pulling 6g's exerts buttock forces of 1200lbs on the
seat
> cushion. Likewise a 100lb baggage load exerts a force of 600lbs on
> the baggage compartment floor."
>
> He knows how to multiply...that's another important pilot skill.
>
> "If a pilot is planning a leisurely cross-country flight without
> aerobatics involved, and if a pilot doesn't take any actions and if
> the plane doesn't enounter any turbulence such that the maximum G
> force exerted on the aircraft is 3g's or less, then concieveably
the
> pilot could weight 400lbs and the baggage could weigh 200 lbs and
the
> airframe would be subjected to no more force than in the previous
> example."
>
> He is actually correct here. Note that he's asking how much FORCE
the airframe is
> subjected to. He didn't say anything about actually flying this
way...it's all nice and
> hypothetical and safe. Plus it's all heavily caveat-ed with "no
aerobatics" and "no
> turbulence."
>
> "So in low G situations, the RVs could be capable of carrying a
much
> larger payload than advertised."
>
> I don't read here that he is poised for takeoff at the end of the
runway, with a flock of
> overweight friends and all of his worldy belongings. Did you?
>
> "Obviously, take-off, climb, and landing performance would suffer
as
> well but with a long enough runway I would think things should work
> just fine."
>
> He seems to be aware of the performance issues.
>
> "No/Yes?"
>
> Now he's doing what I think this group is all about: asking
questions of those who know
> more. So I see nothing in here that would preclude me flying with
him.
>
> A better question is would I fly with you, Rich?
>
> Martin
>
> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I put it to you again, after reading his
> > post would you want to go up flying with him as PIC in the left
seat?

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Author: "Wayne Reese" <waynereese@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 8:01 pm PDT Link

This is not new, Bob thinks this is his personal forum, he has cut me
off when he was not interested only to stretch on for ever some lame
thing he wanted to pursue. I hope he gets the message and let this one
go.
My 2 cents.
WR

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin H. [mailto:onesickpup@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 4:58 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

And it really sucks that one of the Moderators keeps this fire
burning... It would have died, except Bob kept it going... JEEZ!!!!!!!

DOUG!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Collins
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 6:18 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:

> Maybe you thin skinned people should identify your self as such so
> you can be treated more like a child. Maybe you should start up a
> new group that is just full of sunshine!

This list actually started, as I recall, because the RVList had
gotten pretty hijacked. Over the last few years, I think it has
really distinguished itself for the quality of the advice that is
given.

One of the things, Rich, that you'll find here is AFTER people are
finished building, they're STILL on this list. Their work is pretty
much done. But guys like Dan and Cary and women like Roberta, are
still here, pulling the rest of us through for, apparently, no other
reason that they remembered what it was like to be looking at some
plans and not "get it," and, yes, feeling stupid.

So Doug was able to create a list that stressed that sort of attitude
and it has worked quite well. Yeah, we have brushfires every now and
again but it still feels like a community, not of people looking for
sunshine, but of people who have a shared experience in building
these aircraft.

There's a difference between being tough, and just being mean.

Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net

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Author: "John Tierney" <tierneyj3@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 8:49 pm PDT Link

Rich,

The more you write, the more you tick off folks like myself who don't
normally get ticked off. I really don't understand your analogy to Air
Force IP's being harsh and washing out pilots. Different people learn at
different speeds. Are pilots going to need a gentle reminder of the PTS
from time to time...sure they are, I just did that with a CFI in my BFR two
weeks ago.

I am saddened to report that my flight instructor and two other members of
my flying club were just killed in a twin with an engine failure on takeoff
at Burlington, WI, so I'm a little sensitive to CFI comments and references
to crashes.

I can't believe you really think someone didn't eject from an aircraft so
they wouldn't embarrass a student. ("They spun it in all the way from
32,000 feet and never pulled the ejection handles! I am sure he didn't want
to embarrass his student.") I lost several friends in tactical jets back
when I used to strap into an ejection seat. There is bravado and then there
is insensitivity.

John Tierney
Salem, WI
RV-7 (under const.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Rich [mailto:easylivin_ak@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 5:29 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

I may not be politically correct enough for you but I won't stoop to
calling you names. And I do respect all the people on this group
whether they are new to flying or old head 10,000 hour airbus
pilots. And I won't flame at anyone. The sad fact is that RV pilots
continue to crash airplanes and it cannot be blamed on poor design.
IT has to rest with the PIC. If we can educate pilots in this RV-7
group and save one life, what better purpose can the group serve? We
need to all be able to discuss flying frankly without being so thin
skinned about it. Heck, my IP in the USAF used to embarrass me all
the time in front of other flight members. He did it to all his
students though, and a couple of them washed out of the program
maybe because they couldn't take it. Another IP in the squadron, who
was just the nicest guy you would ever want to meet, went out with a
student one day and let the stud lose control of the plane. They
spun it in all the way from 32,000 feet and never pulled the
ejection handles! I am sure he didn't want to embarrass his student.

I would really appreciate it if the rest of the pilots in this group
would take time to read your original post. Then tell me if they
would like to be a passenger some day with you in the left seat as
PIC.

I will continue to call it as I see it and those of you who don't
like it can just pass over my posts and not read them. I do the same
thing when I get tired of reading posts from someone who can't
figure out on his own what type of rivet to put in a hole. Van's
builder's manual is great for teaching us how to build if you will
just take the time to READ the INSTRUCTIONS !!!!

For those of you just tuning in, you really need to go read this
guy's original posting. He still apparently does not understand how
to load an airplane because "HIS" pilot manual didn't discuss it!
Apparently his CFI never talked about such trivial things either.
But then "HIS" CFI was a professional, not like me!

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@a...>
wrote:

> CFII--Wow, now I am really impressed! I would think a CFII would
> have a little more patience, tact, and professionalism than you
have.
> But I guess these aren't prereqs to becoming a flight instructor
> althought they are good qualities for being a human.
>
> But I do thank-you for the advice none-the-less. I'll ponder the
BRS
> recommendation! I think BRSs are cool and I wouldn't mind having
one.
> Such advice coming from such an experienced, professional, and
> respected person such as yourself means a whole lot to me. I
> appreciate you taking the time to set me straight and help me see
the
> errors of my ways. Looking back I don't see how I could have
possibly
> come up with such a stupid question. You are right I deserved it
and
> you gave it to me right between the eyes. I learned a whole lot
from
> you and I am a much better person now thanks to you. You are
> certainly the perfect example of what a CFII should be.
>
> Hey wait a minute! I just looked all through the Private Pilot's
> Handbook I got during my ground school and you know what, there
isn't
> one word in there about aerobatic flight and how aerobatic g
forces
> relate to non-aerobatic structural loads. And there isn't
anything
> in there about calculating maximum gross weights and flight
> characteristics of airplanes. Maybe I missed that part or maybe
you
> are working from a different Private Pilot Handbook than I am.
> Perhaps you have the new and updated Private Pilot and
Aeronautical
> Engineer's Handbook. Or maybe these topics are only covered with
> top gun CFII's such as yourself. If you don't mind, would you
please
> provide me the ISBN of the Private Pilot Handbook your are
referring
> to so I can learn all about this stuff and be worthy of coversing
> with you? I am really very sorry but I honestly did not know that
> these topics were part of the Private Pilot requirements. I'll do
> better next time I swear.
>
> Embarrassed? Heck no! I've been around a while and it takes more
> than a self-rightous pompous jerk like you to embarrass me.
>
> Again, I appreciate your input but please be so kind as to not
> respond to any of my posts going forward. For some small reason I
> have a feeling your responses and advice are not going to mean
much
> to me and possibly a few others on the forum.
>
> Have a good day! And maybe I'll see ya at LOE. I will be flying in
on
> Friday morning about 9AM so you may want to stay away from the
state
> of New Mexico during that time. You'll be able to easily recognize
> me, I'll be the one with the 400lb lady sitting on the tail with
the
> BRS strapped to her back. :)
>
> Take care and lighten up a little!

Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net

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Author: "Steve Reamer" <steve@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 7:09 am PDT Link

Kevin,

We all have differing opinions and everyone has made very valid
contributions to the discussion, I have not agreed with some of Bob's
attitudes either but his points are as valuable as anyone's...gets the grey
matter fired up, after all, one must think to retort...in any case I hope it
is not the moderator's job to sensor...if you don't want to participate in a
discussion or hear a particular person's opinion then don't open they're
mail...easy enough.
My experience has been that I learn much more from dissenting opinions.
I already know my opinion and the reasoning behind it...

SR

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin H. [mailto:onesickpup@earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 6:58 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

And it really sucks that one of the Moderators keeps this fire burning...
It would have died, except Bob kept it going... JEEZ!!!!!!!

DOUG!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Collins
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 6:18 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:

> Maybe you thin skinned people should identify your self as such so
> you can be treated more like a child. Maybe you should start up a
> new group that is just full of sunshine!

This list actually started, as I recall, because the RVList had
gotten pretty hijacked. Over the last few years, I think it has
really distinguished itself for the quality of the advice that is
given.

One of the things, Rich, that you'll find here is AFTER people are
finished building, they're STILL on this list. Their work is pretty
much done. But guys like Dan and Cary and women like Roberta, are
still here, pulling the rest of us through for, apparently, no other
reason that they remembered what it was like to be looking at some
plans and not "get it," and, yes, feeling stupid.

So Doug was able to create a list that stressed that sort of attitude
and it has worked quite well. Yeah, we have brushfires every now and
again but it still feels like a community, not of people looking for
sunshine, but of people who have a shared experience in building
these aircraft.

There's a difference between being tough, and just being mean.

Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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RV7and7A-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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www.vansaircraft.net

Yahoo! Groups Links

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Author: customtrans@... Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 7:19 am PDT Link

I'm sure that the injection wasn't pulled because the g forces prevented him
from doing so. I'm sure in the spin he was thrown all over the fricken
place. Might of even been dead before he hit the ground.

sa
-----Original Message-----
From: John Tierney [mailto:tierneyj3@tds.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 8:36 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

Rich,

The more you write, the more you tick off folks like myself who don't
normally get ticked off. I really don't understand your analogy to Air
Force IP's being harsh and washing out pilots. Different people learn at
different speeds. Are pilots going to need a gentle reminder of the PTS
from time to time...sure they are, I just did that with a CFI in my BFR
two
weeks ago.

I am saddened to report that my flight instructor and two other members of
my flying club were just killed in a twin with an engine failure on
takeoff
at Burlington, WI, so I'm a little sensitive to CFI comments and
references
to crashes.

I can't believe you really think someone didn't eject from an aircraft so
they wouldn't embarrass a student. ("They spun it in all the way from
32,000 feet and never pulled the ejection handles! I am sure he didn't
want
to embarrass his student.") I lost several friends in tactical jets back
when I used to strap into an ejection seat. There is bravado and then
there
is insensitivity.

John Tierney
Salem, WI
RV-7 (under const.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Rich [mailto:easylivin_ak@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 5:29 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

I may not be politically correct enough for you but I won't stoop to
calling you names. And I do respect all the people on this group
whether they are new to flying or old head 10,000 hour airbus
pilots. And I won't flame at anyone. The sad fact is that RV pilots
continue to crash airplanes and it cannot be blamed on poor design.
IT has to rest with the PIC. If we can educate pilots in this RV-7
group and save one life, what better purpose can the group serve? We
need to all be able to discuss flying frankly without being so thin
skinned about it. Heck, my IP in the USAF used to embarrass me all
the time in front of other flight members. He did it to all his
students though, and a couple of them washed out of the program
maybe because they couldn't take it. Another IP in the squadron, who
was just the nicest guy you would ever want to meet, went out with a
student one day and let the stud lose control of the plane. They
spun it in all the way from 32,000 feet and never pulled the
ejection handles! I am sure he didn't want to embarrass his student.

I would really appreciate it if the rest of the pilots in this group
would take time to read your original post. Then tell me if they
would like to be a passenger some day with you in the left seat as
PIC.

I will continue to call it as I see it and those of you who don't
like it can just pass over my posts and not read them. I do the same
thing when I get tired of reading posts from someone who can't
figure out on his own what type of rivet to put in a hole. Van's
builder's manual is great for teaching us how to build if you will
just take the time to READ the INSTRUCTIONS !!!!

For those of you just tuning in, you really need to go read this
guy's original posting. He still apparently does not understand how
to load an airplane because "HIS" pilot manual didn't discuss it!
Apparently his CFI never talked about such trivial things either.
But then "HIS" CFI was a professional, not like me!

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@a...>
wrote:

> CFII--Wow, now I am really impressed! I would think a CFII would
> have a little more patience, tact, and professionalism than you
have.
> But I guess these aren't prereqs to becoming a flight instructor
> althought they are good qualities for being a human.
>
> But I do thank-you for the advice none-the-less. I'll ponder the
BRS
> recommendation! I think BRSs are cool and I wouldn't mind having
one.
> Such advice coming from such an experienced, professional, and
> respected person such as yourself means a whole lot to me. I
> appreciate you taking the time to set me straight and help me see
the
> errors of my ways. Looking back I don't see how I could have
possibly
> come up with such a stupid question. You are right I deserved it
and
> you gave it to me right between the eyes. I learned a whole lot
from
> you and I am a much better person now thanks to you. You are
> certainly the perfect example of what a CFII should be.
>
> Hey wait a minute! I just looked all through the Private Pilot's
> Handbook I got during my ground school and you know what, there
isn't
> one word in there about aerobatic flight and how aerobatic g
forces
> relate to non-aerobatic structural loads. And there isn't
anything
> in there about calculating maximum gross weights and flight
> characteristics of airplanes. Maybe I missed that part or maybe
you
> are working from a different Private Pilot Handbook than I am.
> Perhaps you have the new and updated Private Pilot and
Aeronautical
> Engineer's Handbook. Or maybe these topics are only covered with
> top gun CFII's such as yourself. If you don't mind, would you
please
> provide me the ISBN of the Private Pilot Handbook your are
referring
> to so I can learn all about this stuff and be worthy of coversing
> with you? I am really very sorry but I honestly did not know that
> these topics were part of the Private Pilot requirements. I'll do
> better next time I swear.
>
> Embarrassed? Heck no! I've been around a while and it takes more
> than a self-rightous pompous jerk like you to embarrass me.
>
> Again, I appreciate your input but please be so kind as to not
> respond to any of my posts going forward. For some small reason I
> have a feeling your responses and advice are not going to mean
much
> to me and possibly a few others on the forum.
>
> Have a good day! And maybe I'll see ya at LOE. I will be flying in
on
> Friday morning about 9AM so you may want to stay away from the
state
> of New Mexico during that time. You'll be able to easily recognize
> me, I'll be the one with the 400lb lady sitting on the tail with
the
> BRS strapped to her back. :)
>
> Take care and lighten up a little!

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Author: customtrans@... Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 7:52 am PDT Link

I totally agree, I for one have about 300 hours 250 this year alone. Low
hours, but I feel high experience, but not the expert. There is so much to
learn for the PPL that most of it is book learn, you know the answers.
But... to really understand things you NEED experience. Or to experience
it, which on some things can be disastrous. Sometimes people need a picture
not a bunch of words and figures. Weight and balance has to be looked upon
like a teeter taughter(spelling:( ) anyway you put a bunch of weight on
one side of the taughter and the other end flops down. You compensate by
moving the pivot point until it balances, this is the airplanes weight and
balance. Now from what I could remember from the original post, the
question was asking how much the airplane could handle and the results were
from too much rear or aft weight. Lets look past the thought of overloading
and just too much weight in the back and STILL be in limits and or balancing
it out and putting more in the front. I have an understanding that
engineers factor in a safety margin of 10 to 20 percent over the posted
specs on everything. So in reality you can go more than stated. But we now
have to give up something, and that something is going to be controllability
and the other is a weakening of the airplane. Or any other structure or
device we plan on pulling to the limits. Now I truly believe that putting
things to the limit with a squeak more will weaken something to the point
that one day on a normal flight or usage it will FAIL, and you won't
understand why, you will tell everybody that I was only going or doing...
My advice, slow down, don't take off so fast, take some weight out, don't
pull so hard, treat the object you are using with respect, meaning follow
manufactures specs and use them accordingly. Use common sense, and I really
feel that a person can get a PPL without one.

lets answer this guys question without quenching the spirit or we will lose
him and he will learn NOTHING.

steve allbee
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Gomez [mailto:mlg28@cornell.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 7:08 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

Thanks. No, clearly, I'm not proposing to put all my friends and all of
my worldly
belongins in my RV-7!

I was just trying to point out that the original "dumb question" wasn't a
proposed course
of action...just someone trying to learn, who got an earful but not an
answer.

I still don't think we've answered his question, by the way.

Just to be clear, I firmly believe in the following:

- Stay within the weight/CG envelope the manufacturer designed to
- Do the weight-and-balance math preflight
- Know what your'e doing before you modify your homebuilt
- Ask questions, even dumb ones
- Treat each other with respect, so that people feel free to ask dumb
questions

Rich, you said you wanted to save people's lives? OK, then let people ask
dumb
questions...if we create an environment where people are afraid to ask
questions for fear
of being humiliated, they may stop asking.

So thaks Doug for trying to keep me from killing myself!

Martin

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "rv7doug" <rv7doug@y...> wrote:

> Martin,
> I am going to respond to your post because it is incorrect. And
> please do not take it personaly, I am just trying to help.
> Do not relate the weight and balance to g load.
> You should never ever exceed your max weight recommended by the
> manufacturer. G's the plane can handle in flight are not constant.
> a temporary 6g load in a loop is not the same as a 3g weight load
> straight and level.. and wow, a 3g constant load in a turn, look out,
> if you are overloaded and slow your in the ground quick.
> Do not ever think that you can load the plane heavier than it is
> designed to be, not even a pound.
> Please read some of the accident reports..on the FAA site. Many
> pilots have died due to overloaded aircraft.
> RV aircraft are never able to carry a much larger payload than
> advertised no matter what the g load.
> Dont ever push it... or think you can.
> Sincerely hope I helped.
> Take care and good luck with the plane.
> Doug Brinlee

> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@c...> wrote:

> > OK, I'll take you up on that. I've copied the original "dumb
> question" below, and let's see if
> > there's something in there that would make me not want to fly with
> him as PIC:
> >
> > "This is probably a dumb question but still the thought seems
> > reasonable to my pea brain. Please educate me on what I am
> > overlooking or where I am all wet."
> >
> > So far, we have someone who recognizes the boundaries of his
> knowledge. Pilots should
> > know their limitations, so that's a good thing.
> >
> > "Vans engineers the aircraft for 6g aerobatic use. So therefore a
> > 200lb pilot pulling 6g's exerts buttock forces of 1200lbs on the
> seat
> > cushion. Likewise a 100lb baggage load exerts a force of 600lbs on
> > the baggage compartment floor."
> >
> > He knows how to multiply...that's another important pilot skill.
> >
> > "If a pilot is planning a leisurely cross-country flight without
> > aerobatics involved, and if a pilot doesn't take any actions and if
> > the plane doesn't enounter any turbulence such that the maximum G
> > force exerted on the aircraft is 3g's or less, then concieveably the
> > pilot could weight 400lbs and the baggage could weigh 200 lbs and
> the
> > airframe would be subjected to no more force than in the previous
> > example."
> >
> > He is actually correct here. Note that he's asking how much FORCE
> the airframe is
> > subjected to. He didn't say anything about actually flying this
> way...it's all nice and
> > hypothetical and safe. Plus it's all heavily caveat-ed with "no
> aerobatics" and "no
> > turbulence."
> >
> > "So in low G situations, the RVs could be capable of carrying a much
> > larger payload than advertised."
> >
> > I don't read here that he is poised for takeoff at the end of the
> runway, with a flock of
> > overweight friends and all of his worldy belongings. Did you?
> >
> > "Obviously, take-off, climb, and landing performance would suffer as
> > well but with a long enough runway I would think things should work
> > just fine."
> >
> > He seems to be aware of the performance issues.
> >
> > "No/Yes?"
> >
> > Now he's doing what I think this group is all about: asking
> questions of those who know
> > more. So I see nothing in here that would preclude me flying with
> him.
> >
> > A better question is would I fly with you, Rich?
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I put it to you again, after reading his
> > > post would you want to go up flying with him as PIC in the left
> seat?

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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 10:56 am PDT Link

John,
You have just revealed to me that you are not who you say you are.
No air force pilot would use the term "injection" and your lack of
knowledge about ejection handles gives you away. In the F-111, the
ejection handles are on the center console and can be activated in
any kind of scenario. An F-111 in a fully developed spin has never
been recovered to contollable flight, and for that reason it is
hammered into every pilots head that you must initiate ejection at
15,000 feet to give the capsule time to deploy sucessfully. This IP
had plenty of time from 32,000 feet to do that. G forces in the
spin are light and would not have prevented pulling ejection
handles. They actually did pull the handle just before impact. He
also could have prevented his hamfisted stud from losing control of
the plane in the first place if he had taken over control in a
timely manner. You are at a disadvantage not having read the
accident board report as I have but I will tell you they were very
critical of the IP in this accident and their investigation found
that he had a record of not taking control from students when he
should because he wanted to be MR nice guy. And that he was.

I sure wish people would take time to stop and consider that just
shooting arrows at me ignores the whole message that needs to be
conveyed here. I am just the messenger, please don't shoot at me. If
you don't agree with my lack of PC, fine, I have admitted that over
and over again here. And I don't treat students with disrespect,
just incompetant pilots.

In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, customtrans@q... wrote:
>
> I'm sure that the injection wasn't pulled because the g forces
prevented him
> from doing so. I'm sure in the spin he was thrown all over the
fricken
> place. Might of even been dead before he hit the ground.
>
> sa
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Tierney [mailto:tierneyj3@t...]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 8:36 PM
> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

> Rich,
>
> The more you write, the more you tick off folks like myself who
don't
> normally get ticked off. I really don't understand your analogy
to Air
> Force IP's being harsh and washing out pilots. Different people
learn at
> different speeds. Are pilots going to need a gentle reminder of
the PTS
> from time to time...sure they are, I just did that with a CFI in
my BFR
> two
> weeks ago.
>
> I am saddened to report that my flight instructor and two other
members of
> my flying club were just killed in a twin with an engine failure
on
> takeoff
> at Burlington, WI, so I'm a little sensitive to CFI comments and
> references
> to crashes.
>
> I can't believe you really think someone didn't eject from an
aircraft so
> they wouldn't embarrass a student. ("They spun it in all the
way from
> 32,000 feet and never pulled the ejection handles! I am sure he
didn't
> want
> to embarrass his student.") I lost several friends in tactical
jets back
> when I used to strap into an ejection seat. There is bravado
and then
> there
> is insensitivity.
>
> John Tierney
> Salem, WI
> RV-7 (under const.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich [mailto:easylivin_ak@y...]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 5:29 PM
> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [RV7Yahoo] Re: Thank-you kind sir!

> I may not be politically correct enough for you but I won't
stoop to
> calling you names. And I do respect all the people on this group
> whether they are new to flying or old head 10,000 hour airbus
> pilots. And I won't flame at anyone. The sad fact is that RV
pilots
> continue to crash airplanes and it cannot be blamed on poor
design.
> IT has to rest with the PIC. If we can educate pilots in this RV-
7
> group and save one life, what better purpose can the group
serve? We
> need to all be able to discuss flying frankly without being so
thin
> skinned about it. Heck, my IP in the USAF used to embarrass me
all
> the time in front of other flight members. He did it to all his
> students though, and a couple of them washed out of the program
> maybe because they couldn't take it. Another IP in the squadron,
who
> was just the nicest guy you would ever want to meet, went out
with a
> student one day and let the stud lose control of the plane. They
> spun it in all the way from 32,000 feet and never pulled the
> ejection handles! I am sure he didn't want to embarrass his
student.
>
> I would really appreciate it if the rest of the pilots in this
group
> would take time to read your original post. Then tell me if they
> would like to be a passenger some day with you in the left seat
as
> PIC.
>
> I will continue to call it as I see it and those of you who don't
> like it can just pass over my posts and not read them. I do the
same
> thing when I get tired of reading posts from someone who can't
> figure out on his own what type of rivet to put in a hole. Van's
> builder's manual is great for teaching us how to build if you
will
> just take the time to READ the INSTRUCTIONS !!!!
>
> For those of you just tuning in, you really need to go read this
> guy's original posting. He still apparently does not understand
how
> to load an airplane because "HIS" pilot manual didn't discuss it!
> Apparently his CFI never talked about such trivial things either.
> But then "HIS" CFI was a professional, not like me!

> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxwelltl54" <heirloomi@a...>
> wrote:

> > CFII--Wow, now I am really impressed! I would think a CFII
would
> > have a little more patience, tact, and professionalism than you
> have.
> > But I guess these aren't prereqs to becoming a flight
instructor
> > althought they are good qualities for being a human.
> >
> > But I do thank-you for the advice none-the-less. I'll ponder
the
> BRS
> > recommendation! I think BRSs are cool and I wouldn't mind
having
> one.
> > Such advice coming from such an experienced, professional, and
> > respected person such as yourself means a whole lot to me. I
> > appreciate you taking the time to set me straight and help me
see
> the
> > errors of my ways. Looking back I don't see how I could have
> possibly
> > come up with such a stupid question. You are right I deserved
it
> and
> > you gave it to me right between the eyes. I learned a whole
lot
> from
> > you and I am a much better person now thanks to you. You are
> > certainly the perfect example of what a CFII should be.
> >
> > Hey wait a minute! I just looked all through the Private
Pilot's
> > Handbook I got during my ground school and you know what, there
> isn't
> > one word in there about aerobatic flight and how aerobatic g
> forces
> > relate to non-aerobatic structural loads. And there isn't
> anything
> > in there about calculating maximum gross weights and flight
> > characteristics of airplanes. Maybe I missed that part or maybe
> you
> > are working from a different Private Pilot Handbook than I am.
> > Perhaps you have the new and updated Private Pilot and
> Aeronautical
> > Engineer's Handbook. Or maybe these topics are only covered
with
> > top gun CFII's such as yourself. If you don't mind, would you
> please
> > provide me the ISBN of the Private Pilot Handbook your are
> referring
> > to so I can learn all about this stuff and be worthy of
coversing
> > with you? I am really very sorry but I honestly did not know
that
> > these topics were part of the Private Pilot requirements. I'll
do
> > better next time I swear.
> >
> > Embarrassed? Heck no! I've been around a while and it takes
more
> > than a self-rightous pompous jerk like you to embarrass me.
> >
> > Again, I appreciate your input but please be so kind as to not
> > respond to any of my posts going forward. For some small
reason I
> > have a feeling your responses and advice are not going to mean
> much
> > to me and possibly a few others on the forum.
> >
> > Have a good day! And maybe I'll see ya at LOE. I will be
flying in
> on
> > Friday morning about 9AM so you may want to stay away from the
> state
> > of New Mexico during that time. You'll be able to easily
recognize
> > me, I'll be the one with the 400lb lady sitting on the tail
with
> the
> > BRS strapped to her back. :)
> >
> > Take care and lighten up a little!

> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net

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Author: "s_tones2000" <jeezvax@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 9:33 pm PDT Link

You should chill. Really. It was just a question.

--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...> wrote:

> Martin,
> Actually, I have been "fired" by a student several times. I am an
> instructor of the old school that was trained by a CFI that forced
> me to confront my mistakes and wasn't afraid to embarass me to
make
> a point. When I came in unprepared for a lesson once he ridiculed
me
> and sent me home to study. I didn't make that mistake again. I
> didn't fire him because I realized after cooling off that he was
> right. There are a lot of new school instructors that are afraid
to
> be anything but PC in front of their students. I think PC has done
a
> lot more harm than good in our society. One student of mine
thought
> he knew more than me so he went out and found a new CFI. He
> completed almost all of his training and apparently was happy with
> the new CFI. But, one day this student pilot took a friend of his
up
> in a C-150 to show off a little. He ended up losing control of the
> plane and augering in, killing both.
>
> There are a few very thin skinned people in this group that only
> want sunshine blown their way apparently. They want only to be
> talked to like a child because that is their mentality level. When
> it comes to training pilots, I take it very serious and am happy
to
> weed out those who don't have the motivation to stick with what is
a
> tuff course. If they don't have good judgment, I don't just
overlook
> it and press on.
>
> I hope the rest of you will forgive me and remember that your CFI
> too was a bit hard on you at times, but in the end when you got
that
> certificate you were proud and appreciated the tough training he
or
> she put you through.
>
> I will tell you another example of a pilot trained by PC
instructor.
> He was flying a beaver on floats here in Alaska with a load of
> tourists. He attempted a take off on a very windy day from a
remote
> fishing location. No preflight breifing was given to the PAX. He
> ended up flipping the plane in icy water. I was called to go
rescue
> the people. By the time I got there and landed in the same rough
> conditions the people were near death from hypothermia. They were
> scared to death to get into the float plane with me and take off
> again, but I knew they wouldn't last through night there. I made
> them put on life preservers and throughly briefed them on
emergency
> procedures. The takeoff was scary but uneventful and when we
landed
> back in King Salmon, one of the passengers pulled me aside and
told
> me: " You know, the other pilot didn't even tell us about the live
> preservers that were stuck away there in the seat backs." Three of
> these people had almost drowned because they hadn't been briefed
by
> their "professional pilot".
>
> I am sure you think that pilot is "professional" unlike me.
>
> So please excuse me, Martin, if I am not persuaded by your
> sensitivity needs. It is just possible that by embarassing this
guy
> I may have actually saved his life. Over a 5000 hour career as a
> bush pilot and CFI, I have encountered many bad situations and
> learned by making my share of mistakes. But, I survived, because
> when I made a mistake, my training allowed me to correct myself
> before the situation got worse. Too many pilots start with a lack
of
> knowledge in the basics, then when they make a mistake it just
> compounds and gets worse.
>
> Maybe you thin skinned people should identify your self as such so
> you can be treated more like a child. Maybe you should start up a
> new group that is just full of sunshine! And if the majority of
the
> people here want me to get out, then I will do so too. But until
> then I am not going to be scared off by a few children who made it
> through pilot school by finding a PC CFI who only cared about the
> money you payed him.
>
> And moderator, if you don't want to give me the right to defend
> myself just go ahead and delete this response. I will get the
> message.

> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Gomez" <mlg28@c...> wrote:
> >
> > If I was paying a CFI to instruct me, and he addressed me in
such
> an unprofessional
> > manner, I would fire him.
> >
> > Moderators, I request that such posts be rejected. They have
> nothing to do with making
> > RV-7s, and they are unnecessarily rude and inflammatory.
> >
> > Martin Gomez
> >
> > --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <easylivin_ak@y...>
wrote:

> > > --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "maxwelltl54"
<heirloomi@a...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >If you are a certified pilot, you deserve the response you
got
> from
> > > me. When I teach students (I am a 30 year CFII) I am more
> concerned
> > > with driving home the essentials that will keep them alive as
a
> > > pilot rather
> >
> > Note: This old thread was truncated to save bandwidth.
> > One of the Moderators. (BTW, not sure I would have approved the
> original post.)

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Author: bikcrzy@... Time: Fri Oct 8, 2004 3:37 am PDT Link

Kind of reminds me of the characters in that "Top Gun" movie. JR

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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