Author: "TobinBasford" <basfordt@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 9:19 pm PDT Link
Group,
After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from
FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was
able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the
fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights,
I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help me.
First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons, and
when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns
off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down. It
seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while taxing
with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing
gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground
clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to put
baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to stiffing
them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry though,
because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in Anchorage
and Eagle River.
Thanks in advance,
Tobin Basford
Milton FL
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Author: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@...> Time: Wed Oct 6, 2004 10:44 pm PDT Link
Wow. In my opinion you're tempting fate in two significant ways -- pushing
the gross weight over design limits (642 pounds of fuel + two people, wow!)
and allowing the CG to move in flight without your control. Over gross and
CG is moving, yikes! Those two elements combined with one slightly hard
landing, and it's bound to leave a mark...
Stiffening the gear will just redistribute the issue. I have to doubt the
engine mount is designed to absorb that level of strain.
I may be overly conservative, but I wouldn't fly it like that. Especially
since you said "hurry." Formula for bad things to happen.
And strictly from a liability point of view -- what did you set for your max
gross? If you're operating over gross and something goes wrong, I have to
assume you won't be covered.
Seems like a lot of risk for very little reward.
Why carry that much fuel? Is range that much of an issue? I know several
people who have flown their RV-6[A]s to Alaska with its stock 38 (or
whatever) gallon capacity.
Hope this doesn't offend...
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "TobinBasford" <basfordt@bellsouth.net>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:11 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] External Fuel Tank
> Group,
> After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from
> FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
> have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was
> able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the
> fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights,
> I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help me.
> First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons, and
> when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns
> off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down. It
> seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while taxing
> with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing
> gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground
> clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to put
> baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to stiffing
> them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry though,
> because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in Anchorage
> and Eagle River.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tobin Basford
> Milton FL
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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Author: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 7:05 am PDT Link
TobinBasford wrote:
> Group,
> After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from
> FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
> have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was
> able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the
> fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights,
> I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help me.
> First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons, and
> when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns
> off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down. It
> seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while taxing
> with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing
> gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground
> clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to put
> baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to stiffing
> them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry though,
> because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in Anchorage
> and Eagle River.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tobin Basford
> Milton FL
I *must* ask this question......is this a legitimate inquiry or just an
attempt to troll the group into a knockdown, drag-out knuckle-fest??
My imagination is struggling with the described tank/flight scenario....
Sam Buchanan
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Author: "Daryl Tolliver" <daryl.tolliver@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 7:19 am PDT Link
I was thinking the same thing Sam. There are a few here that I know what to
say something about this.....
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Buchanan [mailto:sbuc@hiwaay.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:52 AM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] External Fuel Tank
TobinBasford wrote:
> Group,
> After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from
> FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
> have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was
> able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the
> fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights,
> I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help
me.
> First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons,
and
> when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns
> off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down. It
> seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while taxing
> with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing
> gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground
> clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to put
> baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to
stiffing
> them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry though,
> because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in Anchorage
> and Eagle River.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tobin Basford
> Milton FL
I *must* ask this question......is this a legitimate inquiry or just
an
attempt to troll the group into a knockdown, drag-out knuckle-fest??
My imagination is struggling with the described tank/flight
scenario....
Sam Buchanan
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
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Author: "pepeborja925mb" <pepeborja925mb@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 7:50 am PDT Link
<SNIP>with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the
landing gear seems to be spreading a little bit<SNIP>
Assuming a useful load of 750 lbs, the 105 gallons of gas account
for 630, leaving 120 for the two occupants and luggage.
Me thinks this Q is bait to get some CFIs all fired up.
JB
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Author: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 7:51 am PDT Link
Daryl Tolliver wrote:
>
> I was thinking the same thing Sam. There are a few here that I know what to
> say something about this.....
I think the Eagle River, AK reference is the tip-off. :-)
Sam Buchanan
=====================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Buchanan [mailto:sbuc@hiwaay.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:52 AM
> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] External Fuel Tank
> TobinBasford wrote:
> > Group,
> > After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from
>
> > FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
> > have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was
>
> > able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the
>
> > fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights,
>
> > I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help
> me.
> > First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons,
> and
> > when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns
> > off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down. It
>
> > seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while taxing
>
> > with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing
> > gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground
> > clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to put
> > baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to
> stiffing
> > them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry though,
>
> > because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in Anchorage
>
> > and Eagle River.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Tobin Basford
> > Milton FL
> I *must* ask this question......is this a legitimate inquiry or just
> an
> attempt to troll the group into a knockdown, drag-out knuckle-fest??
>
> My imagination is struggling with the described tank/flight
> scenario....
>
> Sam Buchanan
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Author: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 8:37 am PDT Link
Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
> Daryl Tolliver wrote:
>
>>I was thinking the same thing Sam. There are a few here that I know what to
>>say something about this.....
> I think the Eagle River, AK reference is the tip-off. :-)
>
> Sam Buchanan
My apologies for sticking my nose into this thread....this one might
have been fun to watch. ;-)
Tobin, ya da clever fella..... :-)
Sam Buchanan
> =====================
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sam Buchanan [mailto:sbuc@hiwaay.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:52 AM
>> To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] External Fuel Tank
>> TobinBasford wrote:
>> > Group,
>> > After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from
>>
>> > FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
>> > have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was
>>
>> > able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the
>>
>> > fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights,
>>
>> > I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help
>>me.
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Author: customtrans@... Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 8:38 am PDT Link
I agree with Dan. What I would do to fix this problem, is redesign the tank
and take it down to lets say 20 or 30 gallons and put in baffles. there you
go. I just wrote a post for "thank you kind sir". I truly believe that
over stressing any thing will eventually bring trouble. So far I read in
your post that because of the extra weight, there are things telling you
that you are such, don't just beef them up, listen to them and lower the
weight. If you want a plane to carry more, build a bigger plane.
steve allbee
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 10:06 PM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] External Fuel Tank
Wow. In my opinion you're tempting fate in two significant ways --
pushing
the gross weight over design limits (642 pounds of fuel + two people,
wow!)
and allowing the CG to move in flight without your control. Over gross
and
CG is moving, yikes! Those two elements combined with one slightly hard
landing, and it's bound to leave a mark...
Stiffening the gear will just redistribute the issue. I have to doubt the
engine mount is designed to absorb that level of strain.
I may be overly conservative, but I wouldn't fly it like that. Especially
since you said "hurry." Formula for bad things to happen.
And strictly from a liability point of view -- what did you set for your
max
gross? If you're operating over gross and something goes wrong, I have to
assume you won't be covered.
Seems like a lot of risk for very little reward.
Why carry that much fuel? Is range that much of an issue? I know several
people who have flown their RV-6[A]s to Alaska with its stock 38 (or
whatever) gallon capacity.
Hope this doesn't offend...
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "TobinBasford" <basfordt@bellsouth.net>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 9:11 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] External Fuel Tank
> Group,
> After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from
> FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
> have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was
> able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the
> fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights,
> I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help me.
> First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons, and
> when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns
> off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down. It
> seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while taxing
> with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing
> gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground
> clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to put
> baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to stiffing
> them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry though,
> because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in Anchorage
> and Eagle River.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tobin Basford
> Milton FL
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Yahoo! Groups Links
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
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Author: Phil Birkelbach <phil@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 8:56 am PDT Link
Just can't help myself.....
Okay I assume this is bait for a flame war, but I have to say please
don't go welding on gear legs!!! These are specially heat treated
spring steel and if you weld on them you will change their properties
and will most likely wind up with a prop in the dirt and 65 gallons of
fuel everywhere.
I say this because it is possible that at some point in time someone may
look in the archives and not realize the atmosphere of the list at
present, and may actually think welding on gear legs is "an obvious
solution."
Surely after the war we just had the weight issues speak for themselves.
I understand the humor value of a question like this but remember that
we are building airplanes here and we need to make sure that we don't
accidentaly give somebody, who may only listen, the wrong idea. If you
are writing a message like this tonge in cheek please indcate it as such
on the message. If you are serious then whatever you do don't read any
messages from Rich. :-)
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Panel
http://www.myrv7.com
TobinBasford wrote:
>Group,
>After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from
>FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
>have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was
>able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the
>fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights,
>I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help me.
>First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons, and
>when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns
>off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down. It
>seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while taxing
>with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing
>gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground
>clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to put
>baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to stiffing
>them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry though,
>because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in Anchorage
>and Eagle River.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Tobin Basford
>Milton FL
>Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
>www.vansaircraft.net
>Yahoo! Groups Links
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Author: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 9:44 am PDT Link
> Tobin, ya da clever fella..... :-)
Jeez, I took Tobin literally. Serves me right for taking this list
seriously.
I've just been immediately deleting way too much crap that has rolled by
lately.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 9:52 am PDT Link
Hi Tobin,
I just made a trip this summer from Alaska to the lower 48 in my RV-
8 with standard 42 gal tanks (180hp). I can tell you that the range
is plentiful to make convenient refuel stops even along the coastal
route without any extended range tanks. If you are considering a
long trip to Eagle River (where I live) from Florida I would highly
recommend to you to avoid the added external drag of that tank.
Also, I find it hard to believe that you can put in 600 lbs. of
fuel, two people, and all the survival gear required by Alaska law
and still be within the gross weight limits of your aircraft.
Some things to think about. If you make it up here to Alaska I would
love to see your plane.
Rich
Eagle River, Alaska
RV-8 complete, RV-7A wing kit
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "TobinBasford" <basfordt@b...>
wrote:
> Group,
> After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it
from
> FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
> have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I
was
> able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of
the
> fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test
flights,
> I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help
me.
> First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons,
and
> when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns
> off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down.
It
> seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while
taxing
> with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing
> gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground
> clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to put
> baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to
stiffing
> them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry
though,
> because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in
Anchorage
> and Eagle River.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tobin Basford
> Milton FL
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Author: "Rich" <easylivin_ak@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 10:07 am PDT Link
Sam, after reading his posting again I think you may just have a
point here. I tend to take people too literally I guess. I should
have realized he had bad intentions in the first place. I WAS very
nice to him, though, in my reply, so maybe he will cool down a bit.
Rich
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, Sam Buchanan <sbuc@h...> wrote:
>
> TobinBasford wrote:
> > Group,
> > After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it
from
> > FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like
to
> > have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I
was
> > able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of
the
> > fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test
flights,
> > I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help
me.
> > First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons,
and
> > when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel
burns
> > off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down.
It
> > seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while
taxing
> > with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the
landing
> > gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller
ground
> > clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to
put
> > baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to
stiffing
> > them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry
though,
> > because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in
Anchorage
> > and Eagle River.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Tobin Basford
> > Milton FL
> I *must* ask this question......is this a legitimate inquiry or
just an
> attempt to troll the group into a knockdown, drag-out knuckle-
fest??
>
> My imagination is struggling with the described tank/flight
scenario....
>
> Sam Buchanan
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Author: "Richard & Roberta Hegy" <rhegy@...> Time: Thu Oct 7, 2004 3:15 pm PDT Link
Nice try, Tobin. They're on to you!!!! Are you using a standard 55 gallon drum?
Roberta
----- Original Message -----
From: TobinBasford
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:11 PM
Subject: [RV7Yahoo] External Fuel Tank
Group,
After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from
FL to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to
have the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was
able to rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the
fuselage made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights,
I'm running into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help me.
First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons, and
when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns
off, all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down. It
seems to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while taxing
with two people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing
gear seems to be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground
clearance. I know the obvious solution to both problems is to put
baffles in the fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to stiffing
them, but I wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry though,
because I'm planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in Anchorage
and Eagle River.
Thanks in advance,
Tobin Basford
Milton FL
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
www.vansaircraft.net
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Author: "Bill Swaim" <bill@...> Time: Fri Oct 8, 2004 9:01 am PDT Link
The idea is good, but 65 gallons seems a bit much. Why not scale down to a
reasonable quantity and baffle the tank correctly. I think the gear/tire
solution is a bit more complex than you make it sound. Pictures & more
specifics?
Bill Swaim
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Buchanan [mailto:sbuc@hiwaay.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 8:52 AM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] External Fuel Tank
TobinBasford wrote:
> Group,
> After having flown my RV-7 for over 100hrs including flying it from FL
> to Oregon and back, I have decided that I would in fact like to have
> the option to carry more fuel than the internal 42gals. I was able to
> rig up and plumb an external fuel tank to the bottom of the fuselage
> made out of aluminium. However after seveal test flights, I'm running
> into some snags and wanted to see if anyone can help me.
> First, I have no baffles inside this tank. It holds 65 gallons, and
> when full, appears to be right in line with CG, but as fuel burns off,
> all the sloshing is making my plane oscillate up and down. It seems
> to be overly sensitive in the pitch axis. Also, while taxing with two
> people, gear, and full fuel (107 gal total), the landing gear seems to
> be spreading a little bit, reducing propeller ground clearance. I
> know the obvious solution to both problems is to put baffles in the
> fuel tank, and weld iron angle to the gear to stiffing them, but I
> wanted to get some ideas. I'm kinda in a hurry though, because I'm
> planning a trip to Alaska to visit friends in Anchorage and Eagle
> River.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Tobin Basford
> Milton FL
I *must* ask this question......is this a legitimate inquiry or just an
attempt to troll the group into a knockdown, drag-out knuckle-fest??
My imagination is struggling with the described tank/flight scenario....
Sam Buchanan
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