Author: Martin Gomez <mlg28@...> Time: Wed Nov 2, 2005 10:07 am PST Link
Fellow pilots:
This is our last chance to submit our comments to the FAA's proposal to
make the Washington ADIZ permanent. Less than 5% of our nation's pilots
have responded. This is an embarrassing demonstration of apathy, which
our government can use as an excuse for ignoring those of us who did
respond.
I know most of you live far from Washington, but just because the
government hasn't imposed this in your area doesn't mean they won't.
Please consider going to AOPA's web site, following the links, and
responding. I append my own comments in case you need inspiration:
I am a commercial pilot with ASEL and instrument ratings. I have 900+
hours, accumulated with pleasure, business, and AngelFlight flying. I am
based in Manassas, VA (KHEF), where my flying club keeps its airplane, a
Piper Warrior.
I am strongly opposed to making the Washington ADIZ permanent, for the
following reasons. In fact, I’m opposed to keeping the “temporary” ADIZ:
1. It provides a false sense of security. If terrorists want to attack
Washington using an airplane, the ADIZ won’t stop them. It does,
however, inconvenience me and thousands of other law-abiding pilots.
2. Most of the airplanes affected by the ADIZ weigh less than a Honda
Civic, and much less than a Chevrolet Suburban. If a terrorist wants to
attack Washington, they can drive several tons of explosives with the
SUV of their choice up to the government building of their choice.
3. If a terrorist wants to attack Washington by flying his Cessna
through the ADIZ, he can…he’ll just have his pilot’s license suspended
posthumously.
4. When the government implements restrictions upon the rental of Ryder
trucks, similar to the one that was used to attack the Murrah building
in Oklahoma City in 1995, I will accept restrictions on general aviation.
5. The FAA has implemented the ADIZ in a lackadaisical fashion,
suggesting that they, too, believe it is little more than a symbolic
gesture. As one example, they allow traffic pattern flights at
controlled fields in the ADIZ with no flight plan. For a 200 knot
airplane, such airports are minutes away from the Mall. Another example:
although from the earliest days of the ADIZ flight plans were required
to be filed by telephone (not via DUATS), every instrumented rated pilot
I know filed an IFR flight plan via DUATS as a means of bypassing the
lengthy telephone hold lines. The FAA did nothing to stop this practice,
despite being clearly in violation of the NOTAM. Are we to assume that
terrorists don’t have instrument ratings?
6. Must we actually shoot down a governor attending a state funeral
before we decide the ADIZ does more harm than good? Or can we be smart
and take this lesson at its face value?
7. In November 2003, I inadvertently violated the ADIZ by about 1 mile,
and had my license suspended for 30 days. At the time, I held a security
clearance issued by the DoD, which pretty much rules out any ties to
terrorism. During the flight in question, I had my wife and two children
(aged 6 and 4) onboard. My flight, and my violation, posed no threat to
anybody, yet the FAA claims – in all seriousness – that I was at risk of
being shot down and having my family killed. Note that during this
flight I had filed a flight plan to get back into the ADIZ, and was on
my way to pick it up when I drifted into the ADIZ. If this waste of
government time and money is not enough to call the value of the ADIZ
into question, then even the REMOTEST possibility of spuriously killing
a family of four US citizens should be. Imagine how the pilot of that
F-16 would have felt!
Thanks,
Martin
--
Martin Gomez
MLG28@cornell.edu
http://www.bashingaluminum.com
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Author: Mickey Coggins <mc@...> Time: Thu Nov 3, 2005 2:50 pm PST Link
> This is our last chance to submit our comments to the FAA's proposal to
> make the Washington ADIZ permanent. Less than 5% of our nation's pilots
> have responded. This is an embarrassing demonstration of apathy, which
> our government can use as an excuse for ignoring those of us who did
> respond.
I agree completely. It is very embarrassing. One of my favorite
quotes is "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere".
The DC ADIZ is very clearly injustice.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@...> Time: Thu Nov 3, 2005 10:21 pm PST Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, Mickey Coggins <mc@r...> wrote:
>
> I agree completely. It is very embarrassing. One of my favorite
> quotes is "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere".
> The DC ADIZ is very clearly injustice.
It's possible that people didn't respond because they agree with it.
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Author: "Michael Regen" <capflyer071@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 6:06 am PST Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@c...> wrote:
> It's possible that people didn't respond because they agree with it.
They can always file comments supporting it.....BUT
What is there to agree with? It does nothing for security, burdens
everyone from pilots to ATC, is economically devistating, and is a
safety nightmare.
I doubt too many would agree with it and if they do, they really
should educate themselves to what what freedoms they are giving up and
for what reasons. They need to understand what this fight is all about.
The reason so few are responding is shear apathy. They do not want to
take a few minutes to educate themselves and file comments. If the
Washington DC ADIZ becomes permanent then starts spreading to other
areas of the country, it will be too late to fight it.
How about this for the apathetic. Instead of surfing the net for your
panel and accessories while dreaming about your plane (that by the way
may not be able to fly to the DC area), go to the AOPA web site and do
some reading.
They have extended the comment period for another 90 days. If anyone
has not filed comments yet, DO IT.
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Author: Martin Gomez <mlg28@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 6:06 am PST Link
If 95% of the pilots in the country think that the Washington ADIZ
should be made permanent, then it won't be long before we're all grounded.
I have more faith in my fellow aviators than that...it's probably due to
a combination of factors, such as
- Apathy, since it doesn't affect most of you.
- Not to mention we'd all rather be working on our airplanes that typing
comments.
- Plus many pilots probably had the nagging suspicion (as do I) that
these comments will be ignored.
- And yes, a handful probably do agree with it.
Bob Collins wrote:
>It's possible that people didn't respond because they agree with it.
--
Martin Gomez
MLG28@cornell.edu
http://www.bashingaluminum.com
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Author: "Bill" <flybill7@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 9:28 am PST Link
Because probably everyone on this Yahoo Group is internet-email saavy,
it's easy to forget there are still a lot of people out there that
don't have much to do with computers. They probably make up a
significant portion of the 95% of pilots that havn't responded. That
said, AOPA mailed a flier to each and every one of it's 400,000+
members. It's sad that only 5% have responded. I have to follow ADIZ
procedures each and every time I fly and believe me when I say that
pilots will be very unhappy when the time comes that their home airport
falls within an ADIZ.
.... Bill
Severna Park, MD
RV-7 Fuse
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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 9:30 am PST Link
// What is there to agree with? It does nothing for security, burdens
everyone from pilots to ATC, is economically devistating, and is a
safety nightmare.
I'm not that interested in debating it, just pointing out that the lack of
comments may not be from apathy.
I used to the guy at the end of that EBS test you heard all the time, even
back to the old Conelrad days. They still do those
tests but there isn't a prayer in the world that that system would ever
work in the event of a national emergency. And that
government is cool ith that because it working isn't the point; the
perception that it would was the goal to keep the population calm.
// I doubt too many would agree with it and if they do, they really
should educate themselves to what what freedoms they are giving up and
for what reasons. They need to understand what this fight is all about.
I don't the fact that not everybody buys the argument means they need to be
educated.
Lots of freedoms have been given up since 9/11. They hold people prisoner
now without even charging them. The Patriot Act allows for searches without
warrants. Nobody says "boo". Why? Because it's not their freedoms.
If we're going to fight for freedom. Let's organize a fight for ALL of them,
not just the ones that benefit us individually.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: Mickey Coggins <mc@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 10:28 am PST Link
> ...
> Lots of freedoms have been given up since 9/11. They hold people prisoner
> now without even charging them. The Patriot Act allows for searches without
> warrants. Nobody says "boo". Why? Because it's not their freedoms.
>
> If we're going to fight for freedom. Let's organize a fight for ALL of them,
> not just the ones that benefit us individually.
Total agreement from me on this! If anyone needs a refresher, I'll be
happy to have a Pocket Constitution sent to them. Just send me an
E-mail, or head on over to: http://www.nccs.net/us_constitution.html
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
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Author: "Bill Swaim" <bill@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 2:15 pm PST Link
Thanks Mickey - I just ordered (10)
Bill Swaim
Slow Build Fuselage
N615KS Reserved
----- Original Message -----
From: Mickey Coggins
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Please reply to the ADIZ proposal!
> ...
> Lots of freedoms have been given up since 9/11. They hold people prisoner
> now without even charging them. The Patriot Act allows for searches without
> warrants. Nobody says "boo". Why? Because it's not their freedoms.
>
> If we're going to fight for freedom. Let's organize a fight for ALL of them,
> not just the ones that benefit us individually.
Total agreement from me on this! If anyone needs a refresher, I'll be
happy to have a Pocket Constitution sent to them. Just send me an
E-mail, or head on over to: http://www.nccs.net/us_constitution.html
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: "Michael Regen" <capflyer071@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 2:15 pm PST Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@c...> wrote:
>
> // What is there to agree with? It does nothing for security, burdens
> everyone from pilots to ATC, is economically devistating, and is a
> safety nightmare.
>
> I'm not that interested in debating it, just pointing out that the
lack of
> comments may not be from apathy.
>
> I used to the guy at the end of that EBS test you heard all the
time, even
> back to the old Conelrad days. They still do those
> tests but there isn't a prayer in the world that that system would ever
> work in the event of a national emergency. And that
> government is cool ith that because it working isn't the point; the
> perception that it would was the goal to keep the population calm.
>
> // I doubt too many would agree with it and if they do, they really
> should educate themselves to what what freedoms they are giving up and
> for what reasons. They need to understand what this fight is all
about.
>
> I don't the fact that not everybody buys the argument means they
need to be
> educated.
>
> Lots of freedoms have been given up since 9/11. They hold people
prisoner
> now without even charging them. The Patriot Act allows for searches
without
> warrants. Nobody says "boo". Why? Because it's not their freedoms.
>
> If we're going to fight for freedom. Let's organize a fight for ALL
of them,
> not just the ones that benefit us individually.
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob, I would love to see the numbers that compare supporting the
proposal to those that don't. I think you will find very few that
support it.
I certainly agree with you that we should fight for all freedoms, but
this is an aviation oriented group so instead skirting this subject on
this issue by diluting it with others, we should keep it to the thing
that affects us as pilots.
The next fight should be to get rid of those rediculous EBS
tests.....who's with me? :)
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Author: "Greg Larson" <hanzonn@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 2:16 pm PST Link
How's it going? Are you still drilling at CNFK or retired? I got another 3
year billet in San Diego. Lots of work, but a paid billet nonetheless.
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Mickey Coggins
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 9:54 AM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Please reply to the ADIZ proposal!
> ...
> Lots of freedoms have been given up since 9/11. They hold people prisoner
> now without even charging them. The Patriot Act allows for searches
without
> warrants. Nobody says "boo". Why? Because it's not their freedoms.
>
> If we're going to fight for freedom. Let's organize a fight for ALL of
them,
> not just the ones that benefit us individually.
Total agreement from me on this! If anyone needs a refresher, I'll be
happy to have a Pocket Constitution sent to them. Just send me an
E-mail, or head on over to: http://www.nccs.net/us_constitution.html
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
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Author: "Greg Larson" <hanzonn@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 2:38 pm PST Link
Oops - This wasn't intended for the group. Sorry.
-----Original Message-----
From: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Greg Larson
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 11:21 AM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [RV7Yahoo] Please reply to the ADIZ proposal!
How's it going? Are you still drilling at CNFK or retired? I got another 3
year billet in San Diego. Lots of work, but a paid billet nonetheless.
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Mickey Coggins
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 9:54 AM
To: RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Please reply to the ADIZ proposal!
> ...
> Lots of freedoms have been given up since 9/11. They hold people prisoner
> now without even charging them. The Patriot Act allows for searches
without
> warrants. Nobody says "boo". Why? Because it's not their freedoms.
>
> If we're going to fight for freedom. Let's organize a fight for ALL of
them,
> not just the ones that benefit us individually.
Total agreement from me on this! If anyone needs a refresher, I'll be
happy to have a Pocket Constitution sent to them. Just send me an
E-mail, or head on over to: http://www.nccs.net/us_constitution.html
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
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Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 2:38 pm PST Link
--- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Regen" <capflyer071@y...>
> I certainly agree with you that we should fight for all freedoms, but
> this is an aviation oriented group so instead skirting this subject on
> this issue by diluting it with others, we should keep it to the thing
> that affects us as pilots.
Well, here's the thing. Homeland security isn't about actually MAKING
things safer. It's about having people FEEL safer. We were no less
safe on September 12, 2001 than we were on September 10. The only
thing that changed was people felt they weren't as safe. That fear put
us into a recession, killing hundreds of thousands of jobs, put
several airlines into bankruptcy, started two wars that have killed
thousands of people, forced us to remove some constitutional rights
from the people. Terrorists didn't do that. WE did that to ourselves
based on the perception that we had to.
So arguing about whether ADIZ is efficient in what it aims to do, is
fine. I agree with all the points. But what it's really designed to do
is create the illusion of safety and security because it's the
ILLUSION that's important.
They put a chain-link fence around the little airport near my house.
It was no threat to anyone, of course. But they put it up anyway. I
know it didn't make any difference. YOU know it didn't make any
difference. But the people who didn't know that think it did. It
doesn't matter if it actually did, the goal is to make people THINK it
did.
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Author: "Kevin" <onesickpup@...> Time: Fri Nov 4, 2005 7:57 pm PST Link
For the very first time.... I agree with Bob on this issue..
We are fighting for freedoms in other countries, yet, we are losing OUR
freedoms... That is just plain messed up!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
To: <RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [RV7Yahoo] Please reply to the ADIZ proposal!
> --- In RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Regen" <capflyer071@y...>
> > I certainly agree with you that we should fight for all freedoms, but
> > this is an aviation oriented group so instead skirting this subject on
> > this issue by diluting it with others, we should keep it to the thing
> > that affects us as pilots.
> Well, here's the thing. Homeland security isn't about actually MAKING
> things safer. It's about having people FEEL safer. We were no less
> safe on September 12, 2001 than we were on September 10. The only
> thing that changed was people felt they weren't as safe. That fear put
> us into a recession, killing hundreds of thousands of jobs, put
> several airlines into bankruptcy, started two wars that have killed
> thousands of people, forced us to remove some constitutional rights
> from the people. Terrorists didn't do that. WE did that to ourselves
> based on the perception that we had to.
>
> So arguing about whether ADIZ is efficient in what it aims to do, is
> fine. I agree with all the points. But what it's really designed to do
> is create the illusion of safety and security because it's the
> ILLUSION that's important.
>
> They put a chain-link fence around the little airport near my house.
> It was no threat to anyone, of course. But they put it up anyway. I
> know it didn't make any difference. YOU know it didn't make any
> difference. But the people who didn't know that think it did. It
> doesn't matter if it actually did, the goal is to make people THINK it
> did.
> Van's Air Force - World Wide Wing
> www.vansaircraft.net
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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