Author: "tomtana59911" <tomtana@...> Time: Wed Aug 6, 2003 8:31 pm PDT Link
Come on guys,I just got out of the E-subie group to get away from the
arguing and log on here to find a bunch of NSI bashing from egg
custumers.
I have an NSI in my plane hopefully ready to fly in about 2
months.My experiance With NSI has been very positive and I am super
happy with my whole package It is far more complete than an
egg.package ever dreamed of being.
I have also flown in and talked to several Glastair owners and the
performance is much better than a lyco or an egg package.
It is also a better buy when you consider everything you get.
I have no doubt that Garys plane is a real model,I have watched
it with great interest,I think it looks like he is a real
craftsman,but please let people make their own decisions,and stop
bashing a company you know nothing about.I know of several Kitfox
owners that are very happy with their NSI engines.
So I once again ask you to stop it only leads to hurt feelings.
Author: "David Domeier" <davidd010@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 5:20 am PDT Link
Tom,
re "I have an NSI in my plane hopefully ready to fly in about 2
months.My experiance With NSI has been very positive and I am
super happy with my whole package It is far more complete than
an egg.package ever dreamed of being."
There really hasn't been any "bashing" in this discussion, just
statements of fact for anyone to digest in their consideration of
an engine.
My Eggenfellner engine arrived on June 5,2003. The airplane
was certified on July 14, and I flew off the phase one time
between July 15 and July 24 with no airframe or engine
problems other than a fuel gauge inop and a radio that crapped
out. On July 28 I flew it to OSH.
The Eggenfellner package is very complete and ready to install
when delivered - and it works. These are facts and are not
meant to bash NSI.
I personally know nothing about NSI and therefore have nothing
to say about the company. But I do know about Eggenfellner and
this is my experience with the engine.
dd
RV-7A (formerly -9A builder)
N707DD
Subaru
Author: "build9a" <eckdahl@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 6:19 am PDT Link
--- In RV-9A@yahoogroups.com, "tomtana59911" <tomtana@c...> wrote:
> "Come on guys,I just got out of the E-subie group to get away from
the
> arguing "
I am a lycoming owner and am getting ready to install it on my RV 9A.
I plan to fly it until I can't get fuel or I wear it out. Those of
you who have chosen an alternative like E-subaru or NSI are pioneers
and your posts are interesting to follow. I check out your websites
requently. I was very tempted to install an alternative engine, but
didn't have enough of that pioneer spirit. However, when mine is no
longer useful I will be glad that you all have paved the way for my
replacement engine. Keep up the discussions, be fair (especially to
us lycosarus owners, which you like to call us)and stay in the
groups. We are all here to learn and help keep each others butts out
of danger. Jack RV9A lycoming N489JE.
Author: "Newsted, Gary" <Gary.Newsted@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 7:45 am PDT Link
That's strange, I monitor this conference continually as well as the
Eggenfellner one and I don't recall anything I would consider to be
NSI "bashing". All I saw were a few postings pointing out some of the
known cases of delivery issues. These qualify as important facts not
"bashing". Adding our own positive experiences with other engines
is likewise useful information, not some sort of reverse-bashing.
This industry is far too generous when it comes to vendors who use
their customer base for debugging, testing, and learning how to run
a business. I constantly read grandiose praise for vendors which I
have totally opposite experiences with. It makes me wonder who is on
who's payroll or whether the posters are who they say they are. The
fact is, we need to take a very critical look at every vendor and
product so people can make informed decisions. This means our favorite
team must expect some amount of negative input. If the vendor is worth
its salt, it will have enough positive data and customer input to
counter any negative points of view. Keep in mind too, that a large
percentage of news groupies are only posting their problems. We hardly
ever hear from people who have no complaints, so don't let some amount
of complaining taint your own views or decisions.
Gary Newsted (nobody is willing to pay me for my two-cents)
Author: "Phil Perry" <philstar@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 7:50 am PDT Link
Apologize for the unintended bashing.
The Subie engine in my friends Murphy Renegade Spirit runs and sounds great.
He can't fly it because the oil heats up (over heat) real quick. He has used
three different oil coolers mounted in ? many places, not to mention the
poor cowling. It has so many modification scars and hole covers riveted in
it looks like something out of science fiction. It has been a frustrating
journey.
Last said on the subject
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "tomtana59911" <tomtana@c...>
To: <RV-9A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 10:31 PM
Subject: [RV-9A] NSI
> Come on guys,I just got out of the E-subie group to get away from the
> arguing and log on here to find a bunch of NSI bashing from egg
> custumers.
> I have an NSI in my plane hopefully ready to fly in about 2
> months.My experiance With NSI has been very positive and I am super
> happy with my whole package It is far more complete than an
> egg.package ever dreamed of being.
> I have also flown in and talked to several Glastair owners and the
> performance is much better than a lyco or an egg package.
> It is also a better buy when you consider everything you get.
> I have no doubt that Garys plane is a real model,I have watched
> it with great interest,I think it looks like he is a real
> craftsman,but please let people make their own decisions,and stop
> bashing a company you know nothing about.I know of several Kitfox
> owners that are very happy with their NSI engines.
> So I once again ask you to stop it only leads to hurt feelings.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> RV-9A-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Phil Perry" <philstar@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 8:01 am PDT Link
You said it the way all of us feel Jack,
I'm here to help, ask for help, and share info in the interest of everyone
sharing a long wonderful and safe flying experience.
Phil Perry, Wings
----- Original Message -----
From: "build9a" <eckdahl@d...>
To: <RV-9A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:19 AM
Subject: [RV-9A] Re: NSI
> --- In RV-9A@yahoogroups.com, "tomtana59911" <tomtana@c...> wrote:
> > "Come on guys,I just got out of the E-subie group to get away from
> the
> > arguing "
>
> I am a lycoming owner and am getting ready to install it on my RV 9A.
> I plan to fly it until I can't get fuel or I wear it out. Those of
> you who have chosen an alternative like E-subaru or NSI are pioneers
> and your posts are interesting to follow. I check out your websites
> requently. I was very tempted to install an alternative engine, but
> didn't have enough of that pioneer spirit. However, when mine is no
> longer useful I will be glad that you all have paved the way for my
> replacement engine. Keep up the discussions, be fair (especially to
> us lycosarus owners, which you like to call us)and stay in the
> groups. We are all here to learn and help keep each others butts out
> of danger. Jack RV9A lycoming N489JE.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> RV-9A-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Newsted, Gary" <Gary.Newsted@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 8:09 am PDT Link
I appreciate Jack's input on this subject. We "competitive" engine users
are severely penalized for not running Lycomings. Not only does VANS put us
down publicly, but so do the vast majority of other builders, show judges,
insurance companies, resellers, the FAA, and even the general public.
Yet I see very little evidence to support such an anti-experimental view,
and I find that penalizing those willing to experiment goes against the
very nature of our sport. The Write Brothers made thier own engine! I
automatically respect anyone willing to do that!
My engine selection was based on experience with operating and rebuilding
Lycomings and thorough research into lots of other options. I have a
wholistic view of my "experimental" aircraft. I fly an experimental airframe,
with an experimental engine, with experimental avionics. If you are not
the type of person who enjoys the full experimental trip, then by all means
stick with conventional airframes and/or engines and/or avionics. Don't push
your experiment into areas you are not comfortable with. To do so, only makes
flying riskier and ultimately hurts all of us if you crash. But if you are
confident in your skills and know that you can build and control your experiment,
then you will find a lot of joy in the whole experience. I have gotten so much
joy from my competitive engine, and yes, even my problematic but competitive EFIS,
that I know my decisions were right for me. Had I built my RV-9A with a
Lycoming and steam gauges I can easily envision becoming bored much sooner.
Threading my grand experiment through thunderstorms in the Appalacians and
Berkshires behind my 3D terrain models while my little Subaru happily buzzed
along "like a bee on steroids" [wife], was a total experience I will never forget.
...Cross-posted in subaruaircraft newsgroup...
Author: "djvdb63" <djvdb63@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 8:41 am PDT Link
Gary...
First of all I must say that it is great, now that your plane
is "done" (never really "done", I know) and you can come up for air,
to have you back actively posting on this and other lists.
Second...now you need to post lots of detailed photo's of your
finished plane on your web site.
Third...I have not felt that Van's has "put down" alternative
engines...they are necessarily defensive and careful in the current
liability climate. Jan has on his web site the excerpts from the
RVator showing that Van actually watches this stuff with interest.
My question: Did Van or any of the his staffers come by and visit
the Egg display during the week? Did any of them ask for rides in an
Egg RV?
Dan
--- In RV-9A@yahoogroups.com, "Newsted, Gary" <Gary.Newsted@h...>
wrote:
> I appreciate Jack's input on this subject. We "competitive"
engine users
> are severely penalized for not running Lycomings. Not only does
VANS put us
> down publicly, but so do the vast majority of other builders, show
judges,
> insurance companies, resellers, the FAA, and even the general
public.
> Yet I see very little evidence to support such an anti-experimental
view,
> and I find that penalizing those willing to experiment goes against
the
> very nature of our sport. The Write Brothers made thier own
engine! I
> automatically respect anyone willing to do that!
>
> My engine selection was based on experience with operating and
rebuilding
> Lycomings and thorough research into lots of other options. I have
a
> wholistic view of my "experimental" aircraft. I fly an
experimental airframe,
> with an experimental engine, with experimental avionics. If you
are not
> the type of person who enjoys the full experimental trip, then by
all means
> stick with conventional airframes and/or engines and/or avionics.
Don't push
> your experiment into areas you are not comfortable with. To do so,
only makes
> flying riskier and ultimately hurts all of us if you crash. But
if you are
> confident in your skills and know that you can build and control
your experiment,
> then you will find a lot of joy in the whole experience. I have
gotten so much
> joy from my competitive engine, and yes, even my problematic but
competitive EFIS,
> that I know my decisions were right for me. Had I built my RV-9A
with a
> Lycoming and steam gauges I can easily envision becoming bored much
sooner.
>
> Threading my grand experiment through thunderstorms in the
Appalacians and
> Berkshires behind my 3D terrain models while my little Subaru
happily buzzed
> along "like a bee on steroids" [wife], was a total experience I
will never forget.
>
> ...Cross-posted in subaruaircraft newsgroup...
Author: "Newsted, Gary" <Gary.Newsted@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 9:00 am PDT Link
Several builders stopped by and reported "less than friendly" views about
using Subaru engines and many false assumptions. Apparently one guy even
came over to say that Vans told him they were not aware of anyone even flying
one, to which he was told to just look at the planes surrounding him from
all over the country!
Jan Eggenfellner and a few others visited Vans booth and offered
to do a side-by-side morning test flight, but they said they were "too busy".
Jan made plans to fly a plane up to Oregon in a few weeks and spend some
time there to let the factory have a good look and test flight. Hopefully
that will resolve some of the false assumptions. Keep in mind too that
Vans is an authorized reseller for Lycoming, so every engine sold by another
vendor is one that they don't profit from. This is perfectly understandable.
Gary
Author: "djvdb63" <djvdb63@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 9:31 am PDT Link
Gary...
In March 2002 I attended an "RV Assembly" workshop in Oshkosh led by
Ken Scott of Vans. At that time John Farra's (now Matt Burch's) Egg
RV-9A had first flown a couple of months earlier in upstate New
York. Ken knew all about it.
I believe there are Vans staffers who follow this list, but this
topic is probably too hazardous to expect them to add any comments.
Dan
--- In RV-9A@yahoogroups.com, "Newsted, Gary" <Gary.Newsted@h...>
wrote:
>
> Several builders stopped by and reported "less than friendly"
views about
> using Subaru engines and many false assumptions. Apparently one
guy even
> came over to say that Vans told him they were not aware of anyone
even flying
> one, to which he was told to just look at the planes surrounding
him from
> all over the country!
>
> Jan Eggenfellner and a few others visited Vans booth and offered
> to do a side-by-side morning test flight, but they said they
were "too busy".
> Jan made plans to fly a plane up to Oregon in a few weeks and spend
some
> time there to let the factory have a good look and test flight.
Hopefully
> that will resolve some of the false assumptions. Keep in mind too
that
> Vans is an authorized reseller for Lycoming, so every engine sold
by another
> vendor is one that they don't profit from. This is perfectly
understandable.
>
> Gary
Author: "Newsted, Gary" <Gary.Newsted@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 11:59 am PDT Link
Well that's OK, because there's plenty of us with commentary to spare.
These Kevlar shorts help a lot! ;^)
Author: "Phil Perry" <philstar@...> Time: Thu Aug 7, 2003 8:33 pm PDT Link
It would make good business since in my opinion for Van to resell both, and
let the customer choose. I think Van will come around in time. The trip to
the Van's factory is a good idea, I can't believe that Van wouldn't look at
the Egg with an opened mind.
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Newsted, Gary" <Gary.Newsted@h...>
To: <RV-9A@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: [RV-9A] Re: NSI
> Several builders stopped by and reported "less than friendly" views about
> using Subaru engines and many false assumptions. Apparently one guy even
> came over to say that Vans told him they were not aware of anyone even
flying
> one, to which he was told to just look at the planes surrounding him from
> all over the country!
>
> Jan Eggenfellner and a few others visited Vans booth and offered
> to do a side-by-side morning test flight, but they said they were "too
busy".
> Jan made plans to fly a plane up to Oregon in a few weeks and spend some
> time there to let the factory have a good look and test flight. Hopefully
> that will resolve some of the false assumptions. Keep in mind too that
> Vans is an authorized reseller for Lycoming, so every engine sold by
another
> vendor is one that they don't profit from. This is perfectly
understandable.
>
> Gary
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> RV-9A-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Don and Shirley" <cherokeepilots@...> Time: Fri Aug 8, 2003 1:50 pm PDT Link
Gary,
I was one of the builders that stopped by and looked at your set up
(twice actually, though you were only there once). I really hope none
of my comments were taken negatively because they sure were not
offered that way and I'm genuinely pleased that you're happy with your
selection. I appreciated all of your comments on the 9A, the
Eggenfeller engine, and the Blue Mountain EFIS. You've got my respect
for the work you've done and the choices you made even if I don't make
the same choices you have made. That's why I hope you didn't take my
'differing opinion' as a 'negative comment'.
I'm sorry that Jan E. and Lance at NSI don't/can't/won't get along.
It hurts them both in my opinion but that's the only negative comment
I have to make (and it's directed at both of them). The Eggenfeller
engine isn't for me for several reasons (technical, legal and
personal) and while I'm interested in hearing about performance and
your experiences, my original post was intended to see if there's any
NSI/RV experience since that's a possible direction I may take. I've
been told there's a board specifically for Subie questions and I'll
take my inquiries there.
Don
RV 9A 90702 Wings
Author: "Newsted, Gary" <Gary.Newsted@...> Time: Fri Aug 8, 2003 2:06 pm PDT Link
No offense taken at all Don, I am just a builder like you. I had, and still have, no official affinity to Eggenfeller Aircraft Inc. other than I happen to fly one and really like it; enough to be willing to promote it to others and contribute to it's ongoing evolution. Jan has always been open and honest with me and I have come to consider him a friend. He has come a long way in the last couple of years with this engine and his business. If you like NSI, that's fine by me. I have no experience or views to offer one way or another on NSI, their business practices, or products.
Gary
Author: "Larry Perryman" <larry-perryman@...> Time: Fri Aug 8, 2003 2:49 pm PDT Link
Don,
In general terms, what are you looking for in an engine package for
your plane?
As far as selections go, we each make our own mind up as to what we
are willing to live with. That is the right that each of us have. No
choice is right or wrong unless the person making the choice says it
is. They are the "ONLY" judge that matters. The nice thing about this
and other aviation groups is that we can disagree and still get
along. If someone takes exception to something said here, then they
have a problem. Not the rest of us.
Most of us take an honest interest in what others are doing. Asking
questions when we do not understand and occasionally poke a little
fun at each other when something does not work out as we thought it
would but we ALL learn from the exchange.
So Don and others, ask your questions. Pick out the parts of the
answers that make sense to you and ignore the rest. If you will, let
us know what you decide and what lead you to the decision when you
make it so others can gain from your journey.
We all want every plane to be the best and safest it can be.
The "alternate" engine market does not need headlines like the one
about the Hughes Racer that crashed going home from Oshkosh so we may
ask questions that may seem rash or impertainent but are intended to
spur thought about what you are doing and maybe prevent a failure of
some type down the road.
Well I will get off my soap box now and say welcome to the
discussion. Every point of view is valid and welcome.
Regards
Larry Perryman
RV-9A and 2200 Jab Sonex