Author: "actschiro" <actschiro@...> Time: Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:38 am PDT Link
Does anyone know of anyone who has built using good aerospace quality
pull rivets like Cherry Max vs. using the smashing rivets method?
I would imagine the cost would discourage some, but the time spent
building and physical stress would be greatly reduced, wouldn't it?
I called Tom at Vans and he said it would add a little more weight,
the drag wouldn't really be affected, and the plane
wasn't "engineered" for that. The cost would be greater also.
If you get all flush head pull rivets which are FAA certified,
wouldn't you be as well off if not better than you are with the
AN426s?
Instead of buying the QB, you could save the $8,000 and several
months of waiting for the Phillipinians to finish it and build your
own, for less money in less time a lot easier than the smashing
rivets method couldn't you?
Wouldn't the primer and paint negate any already very minor drag
issues?
Food for thought from a to be RV9a builder. Figured I'd ask the
group to see if anyone had ever heard of such a thing. Are there any
structural engineers, rivet inspectors, A&Ps who might have knowledge
in this arena?
Jim
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Author: Bob Kelly <mmpi@...> Time: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:02 pm PDT Link
Jim,
Just my opinion, but driving the rivets is a very minor part of the assembly
process. You would still have to drill, deburr, dimple and sand the edges.
I believe that by the time you are actually ready to squeeze or pound the
rivets, you are at least 90% done with the assembly. It only takes a few
seconds per rivet to finish. Even taken times the 19,000 or so rivets, I
can't see much advantage in time. Cost/weight/complexity all favor
AN426's. Get a good squeezer, gun and plenty of bucking bars and have at
it. There are places that the Cherry rivets would be handy, though.
Lastly, keep in mind what all those now flying have told us: "Keep pounding
them rivets!"
Bob Kelly, 90854, finishing
On 08/31/05, actschiro wrote:
> Does anyone know of anyone who has built using good aerospace quality
> pull rivets like Cherry Max vs. using the smashing rivets method?
>
> I would imagine the cost would discourage some, but the time spent
> building and physical stress would be greatly reduced, wouldn't it?
>
> I called Tom at Vans and he said it would add a little more weight,
> the drag wouldn't really be affected, and the plane
> wasn't "engineered" for that. The cost would be greater also.
>
> If you get all flush head pull rivets which are FAA certified,
> wouldn't you be as well off if not better than you are with the
> AN426s?
>
> Instead of buying the QB, you could save the $8,000 and several
> months of waiting for the Phillipinians to finish it and build your
> own, for less money in less time a lot easier than the smashing
> rivets method couldn't you?
>
> Wouldn't the primer and paint negate any already very minor drag
> issues?
>
> Food for thought from a to be RV9a builder. Figured I'd ask the
> group to see if anyone had ever heard of such a thing. Are there any
> structural engineers, rivet inspectors, A&Ps who might have knowledge
> in this arena?
>
> Jim
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Author: "build9a" <eckdahl@...> Time: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:02 pm PDT Link
Jim: Using flush head Cherry Max rivets will only save you a small
amount of time. You will still have to drill, deburr, dimple or
countersink, and prime (if you choose to)and then rivet. Most of
the rivets that you can reach by yourself take no longer to pound
than pull, maybe less. You will hear from some builders who will
claim that it's blasphemy to even consider pulled rivets on an RV.
I'm not one of them. I built most of my RV9A by myself. I decided
to use cherrymax rivets on the forward fuselage panel (in front of
the canopy). It was the last panel that I installed and one that
could not be reached alone. I think I used about 75-80 cherrymax
rivets in this area. You have to go oversize since they don't make
3/32 cherrymax rivets, but that's not a big deal. Another factor to
consider is that the cherrymax rivets don't come out perfectly
smooth. So I sanded and filled and sanded those lines of rivets to
cover them up. There went any time savings. Also, if you get a bad
set, they are a *&#@+%# to drill out and you will probably bugger up
the hole unless you are real careful. My advice is use solid
rivets everywhere you can reach. If you have a good bucking partner,
use solid rivets everywhere, understanding that the plans call for
pulled rivets in several locations. After you get some practice you
can set rivets with the best of them. It is not more difficult. When
I was awaiting my DAR inspection I was really worried that I would
not pass because of the cherryrivets. I pointed them out to him
during his inspection, trying to make excuses and justify them and
he looked at me like I was nuts. They were not even a factor as he
explained that entire airplanes are built with them. Even though I
used a fair number of cherrymax rivets, solid rivets are really
better for a number of reasons, use them everywhere you can. Jack
RV9A flying.
--- In RV-9A@yahoogroups.com, "actschiro" <actschiro@j...> wrote:
> Does anyone know of anyone who has built using good aerospace
quality
> pull rivets like Cherry Max vs. using the smashing rivets method?
>
> I would imagine the cost would discourage some, but the time spent
> building and physical stress would be greatly reduced, wouldn't it?
>
> I called Tom at Vans and he said it would add a little more
weight,
> the drag wouldn't really be affected, and the plane
> wasn't "engineered" for that. The cost would be greater also.
>
> If you get all flush head pull rivets which are FAA certified,
> wouldn't you be as well off if not better than you are with the
> AN426s?
>
> Instead of buying the QB, you could save the $8,000 and several
> months of waiting for the Phillipinians to finish it and build
your
> own, for less money in less time a lot easier than the smashing
> rivets method couldn't you?
>
> Wouldn't the primer and paint negate any already very minor drag
> issues?
>
> Food for thought from a to be RV9a builder. Figured I'd ask the
> group to see if anyone had ever heard of such a thing. Are there
any
> structural engineers, rivet inspectors, A&Ps who might have
knowledge
> in this arena?
>
> Jim
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Author: "Michael Wilson" <michael@...> Time: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:03 pm PDT Link
While you might gain some time in areas where a gun and bucking bar have
difficult access, the majority of the rivets I have set so far go much
faster than the pull type and the skill is very easy to acquire.
The majority of my time has been spent on sizing, deburring and dimpling the
holes. The riveting is a piece of cake.
I'm not a purist in that I will use a pull rivet in the areas of extreme
difficulty but when I think about the actual process of pulled versus
bucked, I think the bucked rivets may be faster.
So, unless you see a way to eliminate the hole prep stage of the overall
process, I think your time gain may be a wash.
-Mike
RV9-A second wing.
-----Original Message-----
From: RV-9A@yahoogroups.com [mailto:RV-9A@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
actschiro
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 9:34 PM
To: RV-9A@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RV-9A] Flush Cherry Max pull rivets vs. rivet and bucking bar
building
Does anyone know of anyone who has built using good aerospace quality
pull rivets like Cherry Max vs. using the smashing rivets method?
I would imagine the cost would discourage some, but the time spent
building and physical stress would be greatly reduced, wouldn't it?
I called Tom at Vans and he said it would add a little more weight,
the drag wouldn't really be affected, and the plane
wasn't "engineered" for that. The cost would be greater also.
If you get all flush head pull rivets which are FAA certified,
wouldn't you be as well off if not better than you are with the
AN426s?
Instead of buying the QB, you could save the $8,000 and several
months of waiting for the Phillipinians to finish it and build your
own, for less money in less time a lot easier than the smashing
rivets method couldn't you?
Wouldn't the primer and paint negate any already very minor drag
issues?
Food for thought from a to be RV9a builder. Figured I'd ask the
group to see if anyone had ever heard of such a thing. Are there any
structural engineers, rivet inspectors, A&Ps who might have knowledge
in this arena?
Jim
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Author: Richard Tasker <retasker@...> Time: Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:03 pm PDT Link
I realize that, as a would be builder, you may not have any experience
in "smashing" rivets. I was in that same position a while ago (longer
than I would like to admit :-) ), but now that I have "smashed"
thousands of rivets it really only takes a few seconds to form the
rivet. I can tell when they are "smashed" enough by experience so I
don't have to check the shop heads any more.
I can't imagine how the pulled rivets could be any faster than "smashed
rivets" and they do weigh and cost more.
Dick Tasker
actschiro wrote:
>Does anyone know of anyone who has built using good aerospace quality
>pull rivets like Cherry Max vs. using the smashing rivets method?
>
>I would imagine the cost would discourage some, but the time spent
>building and physical stress would be greatly reduced, wouldn't it?
>
>I called Tom at Vans and he said it would add a little more weight,
>the drag wouldn't really be affected, and the plane
>wasn't "engineered" for that. The cost would be greater also.
>
>If you get all flush head pull rivets which are FAA certified,
>wouldn't you be as well off if not better than you are with the
>AN426s?
>
>Instead of buying the QB, you could save the $8,000 and several
>months of waiting for the Phillipinians to finish it and build your
>own, for less money in less time a lot easier than the smashing
>rivets method couldn't you?
>
>Wouldn't the primer and paint negate any already very minor drag
>issues?
>
>Food for thought from a to be RV9a builder. Figured I'd ask the
>group to see if anyone had ever heard of such a thing. Are there any
>structural engineers, rivet inspectors, A&Ps who might have knowledge
>in this arena?
>
>Jim
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