Author: Charles Roell <snoridr27@...> Time: Wed Sep 25, 2002 5:06 pm PDT Link
Good day all,
I am new to the list and have some questions
concerning the selection of an RV or Long EZ for my
first aircraft. I will have a partner in this venture
who lives in the local NC area and is a fellow
'Tailhooker'. We would like something that is
affordable (a relative term if there ever was), fast,
somewhat aerobatic and above all FUN! We are looking
to spend between 30 and 55K on this venture.
Im sure lots of you will have input on this and
alot of it more than a little biased but please, throw
it at me.
Thanks,
Dutch Roell
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Author: "Larry Bowen" <larry@...> Time: Wed Sep 25, 2002 5:47 pm PDT Link
I initially had the same two in mind. Then I asked which will be able
to use the grass strip I'll have in my back yard after I win the
lottery.......the RV.
And then you have the whole metal vs. plastic thing .........
Is that your real name, Dutch Roll?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@B...
http://BowenAero.com
do not archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Roell [mailto:snoridr27@y...]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 7:13 PM
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [VAF Mailing List] RV or LongEZ??
> Good day all,
>
> I am new to the list and have some questions
> concerning the selection of an RV or Long EZ for my
> first aircraft. I will have a partner in this venture
> who lives in the local NC area and is a fellow
> 'Tailhooker'. We would like something that is
> affordable (a relative term if there ever was), fast,
> somewhat aerobatic and above all FUN! We are looking
> to spend between 30 and 55K on this venture.
>
> Im sure lots of you will have input on this and
> alot of it more than a little biased but please, throw
> it at me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dutch Roell
Author: Paul Besing <pbesing@...> Time: Wed Sep 25, 2002 5:47 pm PDT Link
This isn't very informative, but there really is no
comparison. It's apples and oranges really.
Paul Besing
--- Charles Roell <snoridr27@y...> wrote:
> Good day all,
>
> I am new to the list and have some questions
> concerning the selection of an RV or Long EZ for my
> first aircraft. I will have a partner in this
> venture
> who lives in the local NC area and is a fellow
> 'Tailhooker'. We would like something that is
> affordable (a relative term if there ever was),
> fast,
> somewhat aerobatic and above all FUN! We are
> looking
> to spend between 30 and 55K on this venture.
>
> Im sure lots of you will have input on this and
> alot of it more than a little biased but please,
> throw
> it at me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dutch Roell
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
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Author: "Rick Galati" <rick07x@...> Time: Wed Sep 25, 2002 6:57 pm PDT Link
Charles Roell <snoridr27@y...> wrote:
Good day all,
I am new to the list and have some questions
concerning the selection of an RV or Long EZ for my
first aircraft. I will have a partner in this venture
who lives in the local NC area and is a fellow
'Tailhooker'. We would like something that is
affordable (a relative term if there ever was), fast,
somewhat aerobatic and above all FUN! We are looking
to spend between 30 and 55K on this venture.
Im sure lots of you will have input on this and
alot of it more than a little biased but please, throw
it at me.
Thanks,
Dutch Roell
Find the bias in this, (you won't have to look hard).... Performance.
The Nigerian Air Force thought so and bought 60 of them as primary
military trainers. To date, 3021 RV's have flown. No other design
comes even close to those numbers. Aerobatic. Fast yet STOL.
Insurable. Highly resellable. Since you will likely invest a few
thousand hours of sweat equity on your decision, one of the aircraft
choices you mentioned won't cause you to itch from a perpetual cloud
of fiberglass particles hovering about your work space and coughing
through a dust mask clamped to your face like a baby alien.
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
Author: "alex_roup" <alex_roup@...> Time: Wed Sep 25, 2002 6:57 pm PDT Link
Here's my thoughts on canards. The sales pitch on a canard is that
you can't stall/spin the airplane in the landing/takeoff
configuration. This is meant to imply that the airplane is safer
because of this. I would tend to disagree.
The main problem with a canard is that because the canard is forward
of the wing, the canard MUST stall first. If the canard does not
stall first, the airplane will pitch up into a deep stall. Therefore
the aircraft is designed with a high aspect ratio canard that is set
at a higher incidence than the main wing. However, this means you
will never be able to get the maximum lift coefficient out of your
main wing. That translates into a higher minimum airspeed. Keep in
mind that the energy of a crash (damage) is proportional to the
SQUARE of the speed at impact. Canards don't have more reliable
engines than conventional airplanes, and I wouldn't want to land one
in a field.
If you roll your aircraft inverted, the canard is now set at a lower
incidence than the main wing. This means that inverted, the main
wing may very well stall first. If you aren't careful, you could
very easily get yourself into an inverted deep stall.
I had a professor in college who used to like to say "Conventional
airplanes are the convention because that's what works best." That
isn't to say that aircraft designers are conservative, it's just
there are very good reasons for the design norms that have evolved
over the years.
Just my two cents-
-Alex
> ... We would like something that is
> affordable (a relative term if there ever was), fast,
> somewhat aerobatic and above all FUN! We are looking
> to spend between 30 and 55K on this venture.
>
> Im sure lots of you will have input on this and
> alot of it more than a little biased but please, throw
> it at me.
Author: "Bruce" <wingtime@...> Time: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:24 am PDT Link
It's kind of interesting that the first powered flight was made by
canard plane. Yet for some reason they seem exotic today.
I've done enough fiberglass work fix my boats. I wouldn't dream of
spending thousands of hours working with the stuff.
Go with the RV, aluminum is non-alergenic but when it's formed into
an RV it's addicting!
Author: david brand <dbrandx@...> Time: Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:24 am PDT Link
--- Charles Roell <snoridr27@y...> wrote:
> Good day all,
>
> I am new to the list and have some questions
> concerning the selection of an RV or Long EZ for my
> first aircraft. I will have a partner in this
> venture
> who lives in the local NC area and is a fellow
> 'Tailhooker'. We would like something that is
> affordable (a relative term if there ever was),
> fast,
> somewhat aerobatic and above all FUN! We are
> looking
> to spend between 30 and 55K on this venture.
>
> Im sure lots of you will have input on this and
> alot of it more than a little biased but please,
> throw
> it at me.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dutch Roell
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com
>
> Dutch....
You didn`t say if you plan to build, or just buy.
I`m sure if it`s the latter, you could probably find
some plastic flyer for a lot less than a well
built/equiped RV. At any price would it be worth it? I
don`t think so. Van likes to express this in terms of
total performance, and he really knows what he`s
talking about. The glass backwards machines are
interesting, but in a limited way. They might appear
to be pretty efficient in terms of Knots/HP, but
little else. Boil it down to bang for buck, and you
simply can`t beat an RV.
I assume "Tailhooker" means
you`re a former or current Aviator, in which case
you`ve had your hands on some pretty responsive
machinery. That kind of performance is next to
impossible to duplicate in an affordable civilian
venue, but I would say a light, 180 or more HP RV
comes close. Go find somebody that will give you a
little stick time in his RV, and you`ll see what I
mean.
Dave Brand 80254
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Author: "Bill VonDane" <n8wv@...> Time: Thu Sep 26, 2002 8:22 am PDT Link
I'm not trying to cause trouble here, well maybe I am, but have a look at
this:
http://www.deepsky.com/~firstflight/
-Bill
www.vondane.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <wingtime@y...>
To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:55 PM
Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Re: RV or LongEZ??
It's kind of interesting that the first powered flight was made by
canard plane. Yet for some reason they seem exotic today.
I've done enough fiberglass work fix my boats. I wouldn't dream of
spending thousands of hours working with the stuff.
Go with the RV, aluminum is non-alergenic but when it's formed into
an RV it's addicting!
Author: "Dubois Real Estate" <duboisre@...> Time: Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:05 am PDT Link
Bill might have a good point. Much of the news is lopsided-sometimes out
and out lies. Read Richard Maybury's books on the world wars: World War
I and World War II. The guy is brilliant. Check out his site:
<http://www.richardmaybury.com/> http://www.richardmaybury.com/
Maurice.
<http://www.professionalrealestateinvestor.com/>
www.ProfessionalRealEstateInvestor.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill VonDane [mailto:n8wv@h...]
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:12 AM
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Re: RV or LongEZ??
I'm not trying to cause trouble here, well maybe I am, but have a look
at
this:
http://www.deepsky.com/~firstflight/
-Bill
www.vondane.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <wingtime@y...>
To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:55 PM
Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Re: RV or LongEZ??
It's kind of interesting that the first powered flight was made by
canard plane. Yet for some reason they seem exotic today.
I've done enough fiberglass work fix my boats. I wouldn't dream of
spending thousands of hours working with the stuff.
Go with the RV, aluminum is non-alergenic but when it's formed into
an RV it's addicting!
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Author: rv8fella@... Time: Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:05 am PDT Link
I'm a low time pilot, and my PRIMARY concern is an airplane that will
a) land sloooooooowly
b) grow as I grow in skills.
c) land on grass strips
I'm very comfortable with an RV since it doesn't land a whole lot faster than
a 152 that I trained in, and if I want to fly around "pokey" I certainly can.
As I move into relatively low difficulty aerobatics and moderate cruising, no
question the RVs can go with.
This next bit is probably meaningless, to you, but to me, it's important.
I'm also a human being, and I want an airplane that is aesthetically pleasing
to ME. The RV-8 is -- to my completely biased eye -- one of the most
beautiful things ever created.
A Long EZ is also definately a "looker" to my completely biased eye, but I
just flat out prefer the looks of an RV. Can you put shark teeth on a Long
EZ without it looking silly? Nay nay my friend. Paint in ultra glossy Navy
Blue and have it taken seriously? Nay nay. With an RV, you can paint it
however you like it, and it won't look lame.
I'm putting a lot of effort into this thing, and I just want to have that
Side 2 of Abbey Road Beatel-Esque feeling of, "yeah, this is the way it's
supposed to be...this is PERFECT" when all is said and done. I can't say
that about a Long EZ, and the more I work on my RV, the more I have that
subtle feeling of "yeah...this is IT".
For those music snobs who haven't heard of the Beatles, I refer to the
sublime feeling when you hear:
*Pretty much anything by Bach,
*Charlie Parker Live at Massey Hall.
Utlitmately, I am flat out more comfortable in terms of risk with a
metal/tractor airplane. OF that ilk, I think the RVs are in a class by
themselves.
That's my opinion, and whatever you go with, it'll be the right choice. This
is America...and we're blessed beyond belief that we can even have this
dialogue at all.
Chris
RV8 Tail Feathers.
Author: Charles Roell <snoridr27@...> Time: Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:05 am PDT Link
Last name is Roell (pronounced Rell). Dutch came in
Boot Camp when I had a bunch of blonde hair and looked
like the kid on the paint can.
--- Larry Bowen <larry@b...> wrote:
> I initially had the same two in mind. Then I asked
> which will be able
> to use the grass strip I'll have in my back yard
> after I win the
> lottery.......the RV.
>
> And then you have the whole metal vs. plastic thing
> .........
>
> Is that your real name, Dutch Roll?
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@B...
> http://BowenAero.com
> do not archive
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Charles Roell [mailto:snoridr27@y...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 7:13 PM
> > To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [VAF Mailing List] RV or LongEZ??
> > Good day all,
> >
> > I am new to the list and have some questions
> > concerning the selection of an RV or Long EZ for
> my
> > first aircraft. I will have a partner in this
> venture
> > who lives in the local NC area and is a fellow
> > 'Tailhooker'. We would like something that is
> > affordable (a relative term if there ever was),
> fast,
> > somewhat aerobatic and above all FUN! We are
> looking
> > to spend between 30 and 55K on this venture.
> >
> > Im sure lots of you will have input on this and
> > alot of it more than a little biased but please,
> throw
> > it at me.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dutch Roell
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
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Author: "fliier" <fliier@...> Time: Sat Sep 28, 2002 6:34 am PDT Link
I built an RV6A. I've got to tell you I think the Rutan-ispired
canard airplanes are far and away the prettiest things in the sky. I
took a serious look at the COZY variant of these airplanes and came
close to starting one.
The I took a close look at one and had an epiphany. I realized that
in the event of a forced landing the first thing that was going to
hit was 1/4" of fiberglass, followed by my legs, followed by my
torso, followed by the engine, followed by the propeller. I'm not
that clever a fellow, but I was smart enough to figure out this was
exactly the wrong order. All of this is compounded by an airframe
that will not let you approach stall (i.e. carries more speed than
you want in a forced landing).
--- In vansairforce@y..., "Rick Galati" <rick07x@e...> wrote:
> Charles Roell <snoridr27@y...> wrote:
> Good day all,
> I am new to the list and have some questions
> concerning the selection of an RV or Long EZ for my
> first aircraft. I will have a partner in this venture
> who lives in the local NC area and is a fellow
> 'Tailhooker'. We would like something that is
> affordable (a relative term if there ever was), fast,
> somewhat aerobatic and above all FUN! We are looking
> to spend between 30 and 55K on this venture.
>
> Im sure lots of you will have input on this and
> alot of it more than a little biased but please, throw
> it at me.
> Thanks,
> Dutch Roell
>
> Find the bias in this, (you won't have to look hard)....
Performance.
> The Nigerian Air Force thought so and bought 60 of them as primary
> military trainers. To date, 3021 RV's have flown. No other design
> comes even close to those numbers. Aerobatic. Fast yet STOL.
> Insurable. Highly resellable. Since you will likely invest a few
> thousand hours of sweat equity on your decision, one of the
aircraft
> choices you mentioned won't cause you to itch from a perpetual
cloud
> of fiberglass particles hovering about your work space and coughing
> through a dust mask clamped to your face like a baby alien.
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com
Author: "Bruce" <wingtime@...> Time: Wed Oct 2, 2002 4:47 am PDT Link
Ok Bill, if your going to have fun than so am I! But make sure all
the facts are there before doing so! Your right, there were
other "powered" planes flying before the Wrights did, and certainly
there were gliders. I should have made my comment say:
"the first airplane to take off and land under it's own power was a
canard airplane" I thought the use of "power" covered that.
trouble can be fun. At least your on a RV page!
--- In vansairforce@y..., "Bill VonDane" <n8wv@h...> wrote:
> I'm not trying to cause trouble here, well maybe I am, but have a
look at
> this:
>
> http://www.deepsky.com/~firstflight/
>
> -Bill
> www.vondane.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce" <wingtime@y...>
> To: <vansairforce@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:55 PM
> Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Re: RV or LongEZ??
> It's kind of interesting that the first powered flight was made by
> canard plane. Yet for some reason they seem exotic today.
>
> I've done enough fiberglass work fix my boats. I wouldn't dream of
> spending thousands of hours working with the stuff.
>
> Go with the RV, aluminum is non-alergenic but when it's formed into
> an RV it's addicting!
Author: "Bill VonDane" <n8wv@...> Time: Wed Oct 2, 2002 10:07 am PDT Link
I guess I don't understand what you're saying...
"the first airplane to take off and land under it's own power was a
canard airplane"
...is NOT an accurate statement... Gustave Weisskopf 's "No. 21" flew under
it's own power four times in one day in August of 1901, that's two years
before the Wright Bros. The longest flight being 1/2 mile at 200 AGL...
Also, "No, 21" was not a canard aircraft...
FWIW
-Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <wingtime@y...>
To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Re: RV or LongEZ??
Ok Bill, if your going to have fun than so am I! But make sure all
the facts are there before doing so! Your right, there were
other "powered" planes flying before the Wrights did, and certainly
there were gliders. I should have made my comment say:
"the first airplane to take off and land under it's own power was a
canard airplane" I thought the use of "power" covered that.
trouble can be fun. At least your on a RV page!
--- In vansairforce@y..., "Bill VonDane" <n8wv@h...> wrote:
> I'm not trying to cause trouble here, well maybe I am, but have a
look at
> this:
>
> http://www.deepsky.com/~firstflight/
>
> -Bill
> www.vondane.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce" <wingtime@y...>
> To: <vansairforce@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:55 PM
> Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Re: RV or LongEZ??
> It's kind of interesting that the first powered flight was made by
> canard plane. Yet for some reason they seem exotic today.
>
> I've done enough fiberglass work fix my boats. I wouldn't dream of
> spending thousands of hours working with the stuff.
>
> Go with the RV, aluminum is non-alergenic but when it's formed into
> an RV it's addicting!
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Bruce" <wingtime@...> Time: Wed Oct 2, 2002 3:54 pm PDT Link
I think Mr Weiskopf isn't recognized as the first plane to fly under
it's own power since his plane used the engine to drive the wheels
for take off. Drive wheels? Does your RV have a transmission and a
drive shaft? Nope :)
--- In vansairforce@y..., "Bill VonDane" <n8wv@h...> wrote:
> I guess I don't understand what you're saying...
>
> "the first airplane to take off and land under it's own power was a
> canard airplane"
>
> ...is NOT an accurate statement... Gustave Weisskopf 's "No. 21"
flew under
> it's own power four times in one day in August of 1901, that's two
years
> before the Wright Bros. The longest flight being 1/2 mile at 200
AGL...
> Also, "No, 21" was not a canard aircraft...
>
> FWIW
>
> -Bill
Author: "Bill" <n8wv@...> Time: Thu Oct 3, 2002 12:37 pm PDT Link
True...
Regarding No. 21:
"In order to start flying, the motor is set in motion and then connected to
the front wheels which drive the machine forward. ...When ready to go up, a
spring is released which stretches the wings and the propellers are started
by means of a lever which stops the ground wheels and turns the power into
the propellers. It takes about 20 yards run with the extra weight of a man
(about 180 pounds) before the machine leaves the ground."
But didn't Wright Flyer need assistance to get moving as well?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <wingtime@y...>
To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:13 PM
Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Re: RV or LongEZ??
I think Mr Weiskopf isn't recognized as the first plane to fly under
it's own power since his plane used the engine to drive the wheels
for take off. Drive wheels? Does your RV have a transmission and a
drive shaft? Nope :)
--- In vansairforce@y..., "Bill VonDane" <n8wv@h...> wrote:
> I guess I don't understand what you're saying...
>
> "the first airplane to take off and land under it's own power was a
> canard airplane"
>
> ...is NOT an accurate statement... Gustave Weisskopf 's "No. 21"
flew under
> it's own power four times in one day in August of 1901, that's two
years
> before the Wright Bros. The longest flight being 1/2 mile at 200
AGL...
> Also, "No, 21" was not a canard aircraft...
>
> FWIW
>
> -Bill
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
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Author: "Dubois Real Estate" <duboisre@...> Time: Fri Oct 4, 2002 5:14 am PDT Link
Sounds like Mr. Weiskopf had something much more sophisticated than the
Wrights. History can still be rewritten. The Wrights hogged the glory
for a century. Weiskopf should get it for the next twenty.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill [mailto:n8wv@h...]
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:34 PM
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Re: RV or LongEZ??
True...
Regarding No. 21:
"In order to start flying, the motor is set in motion and then connected
to
the front wheels which drive the machine forward. ...When ready to go
up, a
spring is released which stretches the wings and the propellers are
started
by means of a lever which stops the ground wheels and turns the power
into
the propellers. It takes about 20 yards run with the extra weight of a
man
(about 180 pounds) before the machine leaves the ground."
But didn't Wright Flyer need assistance to get moving as well?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <wingtime@y...>
To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:13 PM
Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Re: RV or LongEZ??
I think Mr Weiskopf isn't recognized as the first plane to fly under
it's own power since his plane used the engine to drive the wheels
for take off. Drive wheels? Does your RV have a transmission and a
drive shaft? Nope :)
--- In vansairforce@y..., "Bill VonDane" <n8wv@h...> wrote:
> I guess I don't understand what you're saying...
>
> "the first airplane to take off and land under it's own power was a
> canard airplane"
>
> ...is NOT an accurate statement... Gustave Weisskopf 's "No. 21"
flew under
> it's own power four times in one day in August of 1901, that's two
years
> before the Wright Bros. The longest flight being 1/2 mile at 200
AGL...
> Also, "No, 21" was not a canard aircraft...
>
> FWIW
>
> -Bill
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Author: "longtriprv7" <hogandl@...> Time: Sun Oct 6, 2002 9:36 am PDT Link
You know, I think we have drifted far from the original question. I
think the answer lies in another question. Do you want to build from
just plans with no factory support and no one looking at long term
safety? If so, then maybe the EZ is for you. If you want plans,
every piece that it takes to build the bird, factory support and all
this web based support, all the extras including electrical,
electronic and everything else needed to build the bird, then you
should really consider a Van's bird. If having other builders in
your area is important, then look around and see how many EZ builders
vs RV builders you find.
At Oshkosh this year there were not enough EZ's there to make up a
good group. On the other hand, there were so many RV's they couldn't
get them all into one area.
And have you seen any factory notices for problem fixes and
replacement parts for any EZ builders lately? I think I've made my
point. The EZ was a fine flyer when the Rattan's were in the
business of supporting the program, but without that factory support
the model cannot survive for too many years and that's were the EZ is
now. I just read that there are now 3000 RV's registered and
flying. Why? Because the factory is there supporting the program
and the builders. That's what makes it work.