Author: "luap71" <luap71@...> Time: Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:52 am PST Link
Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air craft if
the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are expiremental
aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For instance,
getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
Thanks
Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:25 pm PST Link
In the situation I think you're describing, that is...you build the
plane, you get instruction in the plane, you get your certificate in
the plane.... no.
The "catch" is that while you are allowed to get flight instruction
in an experimental aircraft, you can NOT use an experimental aircraft
that has not yet flown off its required 25 or 40 initial hours (i.e.
phase one operation). If, for example, you had someone else fly off
those hours for you, then you could use the ship to receive flight
instruction. But see below for an important note on insurance.
You'll also have to make sure your plane is equipped for night
operation, since a PP certificate requires a certain amount of night
instruction. Same for the required instrument work in the PP
certificate.
You should also check to be sure you have an examiner who will give
you the practical test in an experimental. Many will not. And it is
up to them.
You'll also need to consider the insurance question. You'll be paying
a lot to insure an aircraft when you are not even a pilot. For
example, how would you be able to fly solo at a reasonable cost...and
that's even IF an insurance company would insure you and your plane
without a certificate.
But forget about all of THAT, and think about this: Flying is hard.
learning how to fly...is hard. And we make fun of trainers all the
time, but they're trainers for a reason.
When you're learning to fly...things come at you at a VERY fast
rate...landing is hard...radio work takes getting to used to....and
you've got a lot of work to do. And THAT's in a slow-moving, docile
trainer.
Airplanes make LOUSY classrooms. You're trying to do many things at
once including listening to a lecture every couple of minutes.
You may well be a natural-born pilot, but the reality is that if you
use an RV, things will be coming at you three times as fast and I
would question -- just being an average pilot -- whether your
quality of learning will be up to snuff.
Now there are probably those who say that if you can LEARN in an RV,
you'll be a better pilot in the long run. I'm not sure that's true. I
made a lot of mistakes while flying a trainer and I'm pretty sure I'd
be dead by now if I made those same mistakes in an RV.
Just my opinion. YMMV.
Bob
St. Paul
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
> Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air craft if
> the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are
expiremental
> aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For instance,
> getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
>
> Thanks
Author: rjdickensheets@... Time: Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:57 pm PST Link
I once taught a lady to fly her busbands bonanza. Zero time student. Worked
out okay. She went on to take her checkride in that plane.
Also taught a guy with zero time in a 182 Cessna. Also went well.
Insurance simply required 30hrs dual in the Beech, and 20hrs dual in the 182.
Not overly restrictive I thought.
As for equip, install what you want and fly regular rental trainer for the
night stuff or whatever. Might be cheaper than buying this equipment if you
don't plan to ever use it.
I feel an RV would be an excellent trainer. I've given dual in a lot of them.
The RV4 requires a small CFI and rear controls. Despite being somewhat
uncomfortable I had no problems giving two TW endorsements in an RV4.
The side by side models are no brainers.
If you look at what the military is using for primary training compared to an
RV9a for example, ...well I'll let you decide.
Ryan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: rjdickensheets@... Time: Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:09 pm PST Link
Yes it can be done. Finding an examiner will require some research.
Ryan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:35 pm PST Link
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, rjdickensheets@a... wrote:
> I once taught a lady to fly her busbands bonanza. Zero time
student. Worked
> out okay. She went on to take her checkride in that plane.
But that's different than the scenario outlined. The question is
whether you could BUILD a plane without a pilot's certificate and
then take instruction in _that_ plane. I don't see any way that's
possible for the reasons outlined... the biggest one being that you
can't use a plane for training while it's still in Phase 1 testing.
Also, yes, you COULD use a plane equipped for night and instrument
flight for training... and ignore the RV...and you'd also have to use
the _other_ plane for your checkride since you have to deliver a
plane to the examiner capable of evrything that's in the practical
test standards.
> I feel an RV would be an excellent trainer. I've given dual in a
lot of them.
Cool. And they were newbies?
> If you look at what the military is using for primary training
compared to an
> RV9a for example, ...well I'll let you decide.
Oh no question it can be done. I guess the question is whether
somebody should learn a particular way and whether someone could
learn a particular way are two different things.
My nephew flies F-18s off a carrier (the Teddy Roosevelt). He
progressed from T-34Cs, to T-2C to TA-4J. And then finally flew an
F-18 at fleet school. He seems to have done just fine. Of course he
had to spend 4 years at the Navy Academy before they let him fly vs.
showing up at the FBO ...but.... <g
BC
Author: "Jon Baker" <jon@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:44 am PST Link
I agree with Bob. Sure, it's possible to learn to fly in anything.
But why make it harder than it already is?
I'd be very concerned about the gear on an RV used as a trainer.
It's just not designed for that kind of abuse. You're going to
bounce that nose wheel a dozen times before you get the hang of
landing. Do that hard enough in an RV and it will fold right up on
you.
I've said this before -- the best way to learn to fly is to buy your
trainer -- a Cessna 150 or Piper Cherokee. If you can afford to
spend high 60's for an RV, you can surely afford low 20's for a
trainer. Do your homework, buy right, and when you're ready to step
up you'll be able to sell it for maybe even a little more that you
paid for it.
Jon
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins" <bcollins@m...>
wrote:
> In the situation I think you're describing, that is...you build the
> plane, you get instruction in the plane, you get your certificate
in
> the plane.... no.
>
> The "catch" is that while you are allowed to get flight instruction
> in an experimental aircraft, you can NOT use an experimental
aircraft
> that has not yet flown off its required 25 or 40 initial hours
(i.e.
> phase one operation). If, for example, you had someone else fly off
> those hours for you, then you could use the ship to receive flight
> instruction. But see below for an important note on insurance.
>
> You'll also have to make sure your plane is equipped for night
> operation, since a PP certificate requires a certain amount of
night
> instruction. Same for the required instrument work in the PP
> certificate.
>
> You should also check to be sure you have an examiner who will give
> you the practical test in an experimental. Many will not. And it is
> up to them.
>
> You'll also need to consider the insurance question. You'll be
paying
> a lot to insure an aircraft when you are not even a pilot. For
> example, how would you be able to fly solo at a reasonable
cost...and
> that's even IF an insurance company would insure you and your plane
> without a certificate.
>
> But forget about all of THAT, and think about this: Flying is hard.
> learning how to fly...is hard. And we make fun of trainers all the
> time, but they're trainers for a reason.
>
> When you're learning to fly...things come at you at a VERY fast
> rate...landing is hard...radio work takes getting to used to....and
> you've got a lot of work to do. And THAT's in a slow-moving, docile
> trainer.
>
> Airplanes make LOUSY classrooms. You're trying to do many things at
> once including listening to a lecture every couple of minutes.
> You may well be a natural-born pilot, but the reality is that if
you
> use an RV, things will be coming at you three times as fast and I
> would question -- just being an average pilot -- whether your
> quality of learning will be up to snuff.
>
> Now there are probably those who say that if you can LEARN in an
RV,
> you'll be a better pilot in the long run. I'm not sure that's true.
I
> made a lot of mistakes while flying a trainer and I'm pretty sure
I'd
> be dead by now if I made those same mistakes in an RV.
>
> Just my opinion. YMMV.
>
> Bob
> St. Paul
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air craft
if
> > the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are
> expiremental
> > aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For
instance,
> > getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
> >
> > Thanks
Author: rjdickensheets@... Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:45 am PST Link
I get the feeling I'm in the minority here so this will be my last post on
this subject.
If you came to me with a never flown RV anything (side by side RV is best)
and no flight time I would construct a customized syllabus for you and your
craft. While somebody flew the time off you and I would spend a few hours in a
cessna showing you the fundamentals of maneuvering flight, and work on some
landing theory in the classroom.
Next we get in the RV and do it all again to illustrate the differences. As
for landing, we do it like every other plane ever made - several times until we
consistently have it right. Part of my job is to protect the airplane
(intervene once in a while). Even the stoutest of stout landing gear has been crushed
by a pilot, don't care how many hours he or she has. My approach to this is
to refine the skill of the pilot so this is not an issue. This may take more
practice/hours but is usually very attainable in an average student. The pride
of ownership I think would keep the student focused on this learning process to
a degree not always seen in typical off the street candidates alluded to in a
previous post.
What a thrill it must be to solo in a plane you built with your own two
hands.
I will now sit on my hands and take my beatings like a man.
Ryan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "luap71" <luap71@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:15 am PST Link
Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I was asking. I have flown
about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3 start and stop of getting
my license. (I got moved around alot by my company, but now I'm set in
place). And currently the only place that offers lessons has 1 very
old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal avionics, seats all tore up,
windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
Then I started thinking, I know I want to build an airplane, I know I
want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour for rental of a junker, why
not put that money into my own plane and then when its done, find a
instructer that could teach me in it. The one thing that does stick
out though is finding an instructor that could teach me in the RV.
Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr burn in (hey who is
gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight time) and then once the
40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me. I figure 40 hours
will be enough time for him to learn the plane and therefore teach me.
Or am I just making more trouble then its worth and just pay the $85
an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will take 70 hours to finish my
pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane rental, thats $5950.
That pays for the wing kit right there!
-paul
Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 9:35 am PST Link
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
> And currently the only place that offers lessons has 1 very
> old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal avionics, seats all tore
up,
> windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
And they charge you a rate as if it's a decent plane, I'll bet.
> Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr burn in (hey who is
> gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight time) and then once
the
> 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me. I figure 40 hours
> will be enough time for him to learn the plane and therefore teach
me.
Yes, you COULD do that, but the question is do you really want to
invest $30,000 (and up) plus your time to build a plane for another
guy to take out and learn to fly in it? If it were me, I find a CFI
who already owns an RV and get him to teach you.
Again, this is just me, but I don't think the place to start saving
money is in your initial flight instruction and I think what you're
setting up here is a budgetary problem that is a "learn to fly now
vs. learn to fly then" scenario that is actually a "learn to fly"
vs "build."
I don't see you saving ANY money in what you're proposing because,
first of all, your insurance is going to CRUSH you... even if you
can find someone to underwrite a policy for coverage of an airplane,
the builder of which doesn't have a certificate and the initial
pilot of which has 0 time in type. Ouch.
You can do all of what you've asked, but I just don't think you're
going to find your reason for doing it is going to survive.
I would consider flying that old bucket, getting your certificate
(and fly every 90 days while you build) and use the opportunity to
learn to balance the costs of flying with everything else in your
life; learn what you can live with, learn what you can live without,
and then build on a schedule that fits that.
The danger in doing it your way is if you get bogged down
building....you're not only postponing your dream of having a plane,
you're postponing your dream of flying a plane. If you get your
certificate now....you're flying. Dream accomplished. So be careful
of tying two dreams together in one package. Better to postpone one,
than postpone two.
> pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane rental, thats
$5950.
> That pays for the wing kit right there!
Well, it gets it delivered to your house! <g>
Best of luck to you in whatever you decide. Perhaps there's somebody
on the board here who lives near you that will give you some
instruction in an RV now.
Bob
St. Paul
Author: "Greg T" <gtanner@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:07 am PST Link
Here's what I would suggest--and this is what I did (am doing): Look for a
reasonable priced trainer (I got a low time 1962 172) If you stick with
something simple, the annuals are cheaper and every FBO has A&P's that know
them well. Buy the plane--get your ticket--get some hours. Buy the emp for
your RV--start building. If you have the money--keep buying the kits as you
need them and keep building. If you don't have the money, (like me) sell the
trainer (if you made a good purchase to begin with you get all your original
investment back and maybe more) then use the money to continue your project.
The drawback to keeping the trainer while building is that you want to fly
so you spend less time building--the drawback to selling it is if you want
to fly, you rent or find a buddy that has a plane he will "loan" out.
Greg T
Author: linn walters <lwalters2@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:29 am PST Link
Bob Collins reply has merit, although I think 90 days is far too long
between flights. Once a week at the minimum if cash flow permits. I
flew twice a week ..... because the airport was between work and home!
Ask around the airport and see if you can find CFIs with an airplane or
join a flying club w/plane. $85/hr for a ratty airplane will surely get
depressing rather quickly. I don't know where you're at, but that's
steep, in my book.
Here's some suggestions:
#1 is to get in touch with RV builders/flyers near where you are.
#2 is to join an EAA chapter. They may possibly have a CFI in their
midst. Doesn't matter. Join and go to the meetings. This is your
support group, and they will help you when you need it.
#3 is to look for a better deal, even if you hav to drive for a while.
You may make a deal with instructor/airplane to meet you at your
airport. Compare paying for his travel time against your $85/hr.
#4 is to keep in touch with this group. There is a wealth of info.
It's priceless, and free!
Linn still has the airplane he learned in.
luap71 wrote:
>Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I was asking. I have flown
>about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3 start and stop of getting
>my license. (I got moved around alot by my company, but now I'm set in
>place). And currently the only place that offers lessons has 1 very
>old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal avionics, seats all tore up,
>windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
>Then I started thinking, I know I want to build an airplane, I know I
>want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour for rental of a junker, why
>not put that money into my own plane and then when its done, find a
>instructer that could teach me in it. The one thing that does stick
>out though is finding an instructor that could teach me in the RV.
>Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr burn in (hey who is
>gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight time) and then once the
>40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me. I figure 40 hours
>will be enough time for him to learn the plane and therefore teach me.
>
>Or am I just making more trouble then its worth and just pay the $85
>an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will take 70 hours to finish my
>pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane rental, thats $5950.
>That pays for the wing kit right there!
>
>-paul
Author: chuckm1046@... Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:29 am PST Link
Paul,
Where are you located?
Chuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "midniteoyl2" <midniteoyl@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:52 pm PST Link
>>Linn wrote:
Here's some suggestions:
#1 is to get in touch with RV builders/flyers near where you are.
#2 is to join an EAA chapter. They may possibly have a CFI in their
midst. Doesn't matter. Join and go to the meetings. This is your
support group, and they will help you when you need it.
#3 is to look for a better deal, even if you hav to drive for a
while.
You may make a deal with instructor/airplane to meet you at your
airport. Compare paying for his travel time against your $85/hr.
#4 is to keep in touch with this group. There is a wealth of info.
It's priceless, and free!
<<
Add to #2 - Not only might there be a CFI, but a CFI with a RV that
would be willing to teach you in it. Even if not, there will be
plenty of guys willing to take you up and show you around the RV -
this can only help, and will keep you 'motivated' to complete your
training AND your plane in the least amount of time.
Good luck
Jim
Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:56 pm PST Link
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, linn walters <lwalters2@c...>
wrote:
> Bob Collins reply has merit, although I think 90 days is far too
long
> between flights.
I can attest to that! I was just noting the requirement for
currency once he gets his certificate. What I should have said is fly AT LEAST every 90 days (to say current).
IN the learning phase, totally agree...you have to fly at least once a week...two is more like it.
BC
Author: linn walters <lwalters2@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:34 pm PST Link
rjdickensheets@... wrote:
>I get the feeling I'm in the minority here so this will be my last post on
>this subject.
>
>If you came to me with a never flown RV anything (side by side RV is best)
>and no flight time I would construct a customized syllabus for you and your
>craft. While somebody flew the time off you and I would spend a few hours in a
>cessna showing you the fundamentals of maneuvering flight, and work on some
>landing theory in the classroom.
>
>Next we get in the RV and do it all again to illustrate the differences. As
>for landing, we do it like every other plane ever made - several times until we
>consistently have it right. Part of my job is to protect the airplane
>(intervene once in a while). Even the stoutest of stout landing gear has been crushed
>by a pilot, don't care how many hours he or she has. My approach to this is
>to refine the skill of the pilot so this is not an issue. This may take more
>practice/hours but is usually very attainable in an average student. The pride
>of ownership I think would keep the student focused on this learning process to
>a degree not always seen in typical off the street candidates alluded to in a
>previous post.
>
>What a thrill it must be to solo in a plane you built with your own two
>hands.
>
>I will now sit on my hands and take my beatings like a man.
>
>Ryan
>
Why a beating? That's a perfect answer to the mans question!!!
HOWEVER, I'd advise him to get the license while he's building. No, I'm
not a CFI, nor do I play one on TV. My reasoning is that he will be
exposed to various equipment during the instruction phase ..... most
likely multiple airplanes if he learns from an FBO with flight training
....... and that experience will help him in his choice of equipment and
plcement in the panel for his new airplane. I got my ticket while
building on my BD-5 (now sitting languishing in my hangar loft) and had
a fair amount of experience when I built my Pitts. I ended up buying
the plane I trained in (Grumman AA-1B and I still have it) SHORTLY AFTER
I got my license ....... and it would have been cheaper, of course to
buy the plane and get training in it .... but I wasn't aviation savvy
enough to know that. It's probably too bad that the 'builder' and Ryan
don't live close to each other!!!
My 2 pennies.
Linn
Author: "luap71" <luap71@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:28 pm PST Link
Oh I hadn't realized that the 60's planes could be had for low 20's.
Is there a good place to go online to look for used planes?
-paul
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Baker" <jon@s...> wrote:
> I agree with Bob. Sure, it's possible to learn to fly in anything.
> But why make it harder than it already is?
>
> I'd be very concerned about the gear on an RV used as a trainer.
> It's just not designed for that kind of abuse. You're going to
> bounce that nose wheel a dozen times before you get the hang of
> landing. Do that hard enough in an RV and it will fold right up on
> you.
>
> I've said this before -- the best way to learn to fly is to buy your
> trainer -- a Cessna 150 or Piper Cherokee. If you can afford to
> spend high 60's for an RV, you can surely afford low 20's for a
> trainer. Do your homework, buy right, and when you're ready to step
> up you'll be able to sell it for maybe even a little more that you
> paid for it.
>
> Jon
>
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins" <bcollins@m...>
> wrote:
> > In the situation I think you're describing, that is...you build the
> > plane, you get instruction in the plane, you get your certificate
> in
> > the plane.... no.
> >
> > The "catch" is that while you are allowed to get flight instruction
> > in an experimental aircraft, you can NOT use an experimental
> aircraft
> > that has not yet flown off its required 25 or 40 initial hours
> (i.e.
> > phase one operation). If, for example, you had someone else fly off
> > those hours for you, then you could use the ship to receive flight
> > instruction. But see below for an important note on insurance.
> >
> > You'll also have to make sure your plane is equipped for night
> > operation, since a PP certificate requires a certain amount of
> night
> > instruction. Same for the required instrument work in the PP
> > certificate.
> >
> > You should also check to be sure you have an examiner who will give
> > you the practical test in an experimental. Many will not. And it is
> > up to them.
> >
> > You'll also need to consider the insurance question. You'll be
> paying
> > a lot to insure an aircraft when you are not even a pilot. For
> > example, how would you be able to fly solo at a reasonable
> cost...and
> > that's even IF an insurance company would insure you and your plane
> > without a certificate.
> >
> > But forget about all of THAT, and think about this: Flying is hard.
> > learning how to fly...is hard. And we make fun of trainers all the
> > time, but they're trainers for a reason.
> >
> > When you're learning to fly...things come at you at a VERY fast
> > rate...landing is hard...radio work takes getting to used to....and
> > you've got a lot of work to do. And THAT's in a slow-moving, docile
> > trainer.
> >
> > Airplanes make LOUSY classrooms. You're trying to do many things at
> > once including listening to a lecture every couple of minutes.
> > You may well be a natural-born pilot, but the reality is that if
> you
> > use an RV, things will be coming at you three times as fast and I
> > would question -- just being an average pilot -- whether your
> > quality of learning will be up to snuff.
> >
> > Now there are probably those who say that if you can LEARN in an
> RV,
> > you'll be a better pilot in the long run. I'm not sure that's true.
> I
> > made a lot of mistakes while flying a trainer and I'm pretty sure
> I'd
> > be dead by now if I made those same mistakes in an RV.
> >
> > Just my opinion. YMMV.
> >
> > Bob
> > St. Paul
> > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > > Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air craft
> if
> > > the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are
> > expiremental
> > > aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For
> instance,
> > > getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
> > >
> > > Thanks
Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:16 am PST Link
I don't think anybody is disagreeing with you. It can be done.
And you CAN build an RV and get your license in it IF somebody else
flies off the 25 or 40 hours. And you CAN take your checkride in it
IF it's equipped with all the necessary equipment to perform all the
necessary maneuvers of the practical test standards. And you CAN take your checkride in it IF you can find an examiner willing to go with you. Absolutely.
I don't think there is only ONE way to learn to fly. Everyone is
different and the best way for each to learn is the one that works
best for them.
But everyone needs to consider all the variables involved. The
original question was can I build my own plane and use it to learn
to fly. I took it to mean can one build a plane...take it to the
airport..start 'er up...take 'er out and learn to fly in it. That
you can't do...at least legally. It can be done, with the "yeah,
buts" already cited.
I DO think building a plane is more fun if you know PRECISELY what
each little part in your hands does in terms of aerodynamics of
flight. But, like I said before, that's just me.
Doug Weiler, head of the Minnesota Wing of VAF, was over to the house the other night to look at my fuel tank sealing method and while we were chatting about the mission of the plane, we start talking about autopilots. He said that the only problem with the RV as a cross country machine with no autopilot is as you move around the cabin...say to get a chart or something.... the thing is so responsive it's nothing to gain or lose altitude and get all out of order.
Doug flies 757s for Northwest Airlines for a living, so I'm listening closely to what he says. From a builder's standpoint, his is good advice. The quesiton I ask myself is is it BETTER advise if I've ever been in a situation where I've gotten a plane all out of trim in a particular situation and I know what that even MEANS when Doug says it because I have....and with my own experiences... am I know in a more informed position to make a choice in the construction of my RV? I think I am. (Again...others may think not, I'm just telling you what works for me).
I think your syllavus is fine and I note that it includes spending time in a Cessna...a slower, more docile aircraft... to learn a particular theory of flight. I presume there's a reason you're flying a Cessna and not an RV at that point. I presume that it's because -- at least at THAT point -- a Cessna is a better choice than an RV. I think we all agree with your syllabus.
Of course, the other thing is it's possible that someone might want
to learn to fly...and then starts lessons and decides that they
don't really WANT to fly. That'd be kinda of a bummer after spending
all the time building a plane. <g>
BTW, I'd still like to know what the premium would be on an insurance policy on an RV flown by a pilot who doesn't have a certificate. And who's writing those these days?
Bob
Battling with Black Death (Fuel tanks)
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, rjdickensheets@a... wrote:
> I get the feeling I'm in the minority here so this will be my last
post on
> this subject.
>
> If you came to me with a never flown RV anything (side by side RV
is best)
> and no flight time I would construct a customized syllabus for you
and your
> craft. While somebody flew the time off you and I would spend a
few hours in a
> cessna showing you the fundamentals of maneuvering flight, and
work on some
> landing theory in the classroom.
>
> Next we get in the RV and do it all again to illustrate the
differences. As
> for landing, we do it like every other plane ever made - several
times until we
> consistently have it right. Part of my job is to protect the
airplane
> (intervene once in a while). Even the stoutest of stout landing
gear has been crushed
> by a pilot, don't care how many hours he or she has. My approach
to this is
> to refine the skill of the pilot so this is not an issue. This may
take more
> practice/hours but is usually very attainable in an average
student. The pride
> of ownership I think would keep the student focused on this
learning process to
> a degree not always seen in typical off the street candidates
alluded to in a
> previous post.
>
> What a thrill it must be to solo in a plane you built with your
own two
> hands.
>
> I will now sit on my hands and take my beatings like a man.
>
> Ryan
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Greg Young" <gyoung@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:34 pm PST Link
The biggest source is Trade-a-Plane, the yellow newspaper with ~10,000
classifieds. It comes out 3 times a month and there's normally a copy
floating around most FBO's or shops. You can see the ads online at
www.trade-a-plane.com but you'll need a minimal subscription. Other online
sources to check: www.barnstormers.com, www.generalaviationnews.com,
www.globalplanesearch.com, www.aopa.org/classifieds. Prepare to be
overwhelmed until you narrow your criteria. Then there's always the local
airport bulletin boards.
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
> Oh I hadn't realized that the 60's planes could be had for
> low 20's. Is there a good place to go online to look for used planes?
>
> -paul
>
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Baker" <jon@s...> wrote:
> > I agree with Bob. Sure, it's possible to learn to fly in anything.
> > But why make it harder than it already is?
> >
> > I'd be very concerned about the gear on an RV used as a trainer.
> > It's just not designed for that kind of abuse. You're going to
> > bounce that nose wheel a dozen times before you get the hang of
> > landing. Do that hard enough in an RV and it will fold right up on
> > you.
> >
> > I've said this before -- the best way to learn to fly is to buy your
> > trainer -- a Cessna 150 or Piper Cherokee. If you can afford to
> > spend high 60's for an RV, you can surely afford low 20's for a
> > trainer. Do your homework, buy right, and when you're
> ready to step
> > up you'll be able to sell it for maybe even a little more that you
> > paid for it.
Author: "Howard Long" <hlong@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:34 pm PST Link
I've got to weigh in on this discussion. Reference the gear on the RV's.
I taught for several years in the AA1 (Grumman/Gulfstream American T-Cat)
and the AA5 (Tiger and Cheetah) which have a similar gear set up to the
RV's, and much the same sight picture for landings. Every Cessna and Piper
pilot that I trained took some time to get used to the differences but
eventually got competent and enjoyed the airplane. I trained many people
from 0 hours in the T-Cat --- again attention to detail --- and all that
stuck with it were successful. The RV's would definitely have it's own
challenges for teaching pilot with no experience --- but I'm working with a
spouse right now who is learning to land the airplane that she and her
husband built together (just in case), and she has a great touch already.
Learning to fly in the RV's is definitely doable --- just need to decide if
the wear and tear (there will be some, that's how you learn) is worth it
versus learning in a trainer and then transitioning. Insurance is a
different issue ---- but I once had a student that started in a C210
(soloed it) then bought a C310, and got his Private Multi. He didn't get
his single engine rating for ten years.
Howard Long, CFII
>I agree with Bob. Sure, it's possible to learn to fly in anything.
>But why make it harder than it already is?
>
>I'd be very concerned about the gear on an RV used as a trainer.
>It's just not designed for that kind of abuse. You're going to
>bounce that nose wheel a dozen times before you get the hang of
>landing. Do that hard enough in an RV and it will fold right up on
>you.
>
>I've said this before -- the best way to learn to fly is to buy your
>trainer -- a Cessna 150 or Piper Cherokee. If you can afford to
>spend high 60's for an RV, you can surely afford low 20's for a
>trainer. Do your homework, buy right, and when you're ready to step
>up you'll be able to sell it for maybe even a little more that you
>paid for it.
>
>Jon
>
>--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins" <bcollins@m...>
>wrote:
>> In the situation I think you're describing, that is...you build the
>> plane, you get instruction in the plane, you get your certificate
>in
>> the plane.... no.
>>
>> The "catch" is that while you are allowed to get flight instruction
>> in an experimental aircraft, you can NOT use an experimental
>aircraft
>> that has not yet flown off its required 25 or 40 initial hours
>(i.e.
>> phase one operation). If, for example, you had someone else fly off
>> those hours for you, then you could use the ship to receive flight
>> instruction. But see below for an important note on insurance.
>>
>> You'll also have to make sure your plane is equipped for night
>> operation, since a PP certificate requires a certain amount of
>night
>> instruction. Same for the required instrument work in the PP
>> certificate.
>>
>> You should also check to be sure you have an examiner who will give
>> you the practical test in an experimental. Many will not. And it is
>> up to them.
>>
>> You'll also need to consider the insurance question. You'll be
>paying
>> a lot to insure an aircraft when you are not even a pilot. For
>> example, how would you be able to fly solo at a reasonable
>cost...and
>> that's even IF an insurance company would insure you and your plane
>> without a certificate.
>>
>> But forget about all of THAT, and think about this: Flying is hard.
>> learning how to fly...is hard. And we make fun of trainers all the
>> time, but they're trainers for a reason.
>>
>> When you're learning to fly...things come at you at a VERY fast
>> rate...landing is hard...radio work takes getting to used to....and
>> you've got a lot of work to do. And THAT's in a slow-moving, docile
>> trainer.
>>
>> Airplanes make LOUSY classrooms. You're trying to do many things at
>> once including listening to a lecture every couple of minutes.
>> You may well be a natural-born pilot, but the reality is that if
>you
>> use an RV, things will be coming at you three times as fast and I
>> would question -- just being an average pilot -- whether your
>> quality of learning will be up to snuff.
>>
>> Now there are probably those who say that if you can LEARN in an
>RV,
>> you'll be a better pilot in the long run. I'm not sure that's true.
>I
>> made a lot of mistakes while flying a trainer and I'm pretty sure
>I'd
>> be dead by now if I made those same mistakes in an RV.
>>
>> Just my opinion. YMMV.
>>
>> Bob
>> St. Paul
>> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
>> > Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air craft
>if
>> > the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are
>> expiremental
>> > aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For
>instance,
>> > getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>Online help on this group at:
>http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
Author: Joe Cleck <rvfan661@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:26 pm PST Link
I read this thread with some interest and remembered seeing the following quote on the Van's site: "The RV-9/9A would make an excellent trainer, and it is easy to envision several “wannabe” pilots forming a partnership to build the airplane and then learning to fly in it."
Now getting someone to fly-off your hours does complicate getting in your creation to get training, it appears that Van seem's to think his design is docile enough to use as a trainer.
Joe
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Author: "luap71" <luap71@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:26 pm PST Link
Hollister Ca
-p
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, chuckm1046@a... wrote:
> Paul,
> Where are you located?
> Chuck
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: Paul Besing <pbesing@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 5:52 pm PST Link
I don't know how many CFI's would be willing to do the
fly off time. Not to mention, there is much more to
do during the fly off time than just fly. You need to
test the aircraft. You need to record data, squawks,
etc. Then there will be a continued tweaking and
maintenance during that time and after. In my
opinion, you should be the one to do the fly off time.
You might be able to find an out of work RV builder to
help you fly off the time. I did this for a friend of
mine who didn't have the time to fly the 40 hours. I
flew about 20 hours of his time, and did some aircraft
testing.
Your Private should not cost you more than about $3500
at most schools. Personally, I would get the rating,
finish the airplane, get a checkout in an RV, and fly
it off yourself. Just my $.02.
Paul Besing
--- luap71 <luap71@...> wrote:
> Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I was
> asking. I have flown
> about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3 start
> and stop of getting
> my license. (I got moved around alot by my company,
> but now I'm set in
> place). And currently the only place that offers
> lessons has 1 very
> old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal avionics,
> seats all tore up,
> windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
> Then I started thinking, I know I want to build an
> airplane, I know I
> want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour for
> rental of a junker, why
> not put that money into my own plane and then when
> its done, find a
> instructer that could teach me in it. The one thing
> that does stick
> out though is finding an instructor that could teach
> me in the RV.
> Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr burn
> in (hey who is
> gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight time)
> and then once the
> 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me. I
> figure 40 hours
> will be enough time for him to learn the plane and
> therefore teach me.
>
> Or am I just making more trouble then its worth and
> just pay the $85
> an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will take 70
> hours to finish my
> pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane
> rental, thats $5950.
> That pays for the wing kit right there!
>
> -paul
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
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Author: "luap71" <luap71@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:23 pm PST Link
wow what a great response from everyone. After giving it more thought,
and reading the reponses, I think that while it is possible to build
it and then learn in it I don't know how long it will take me to build
it, and I want to be in the air before that. Plus, I want to enjoy the
process of building it, and I think I would put alot of pressure on
myself to hurry up and get it done so that I could start flying.
So now I just need to sit down and figure out the expenses of owning
my own trainer vs. renting.
Then the real decision, an RV7a or RV10. Then should I go with a subie
or a lycoming .... haha but that is another thread.
Thanks for all the great feedback.
paul
Author: "wes9wm" <ragle@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:48 pm PST Link
Paul,
Here is a real life story. A man, his son, and his wife decide that
building and flying airplanes would be a great alternative to a 30
year mortgage. We joined a local E.A.A. chapter and researched
which model to build. We decides on a RV-6A and ordered the Q.B. kit.
While waiting on the kit we got impatient and decided to spend the
engine money on a C-150 and learn to fly while we waited on the kit.
Well, about the time we got the plane and lined up an instructor the
kit arrived.
Having never been around aviation (let alone airplane building), I
found building to be a real challenge. With persistence, help from
new friends, and lots of time, the airplane building progressed.
Well, what about the C-150? It sat for about three years. With
considerable fixed cost I might add. I found that I was unable to
divide my time between a full time job, building an RV, and learning
to fly and maintain a C-150.
Just about a year ago my RV-6A made its way to the airport. Within
one month of the move it was in the air courtesy of my tech.
counselor/friend/test pilot. I couldn't wait to train in the
airplane I had built. My friend flew the 40 hrs off (XP-360),
provided transition training to my new flight instructor and handed
the airplane off to him for some additional orientation.
Finally, all was set and I began training. But, after about four
hours my instructor decided that the RV did not make a good trainer.
His Reasons:
1) To easy to fly. You'll never learn proper rudder skills with
this airplane.
2) How high does the wind need to be to fowl up turns about a point.
3) Not good for touch and goes. Too far out of trim in landing
configuration.
4) Not good for touch and goes. Oil temps start to get high.
5) You really don't want your first bad landing to be in this
airplane. A prop strike would make you cry.
6) He really didn't want his student practicing departure stalls in
an RV.
7) He named many others, but these are what come to mind.
So..., back to the C-150 and my instructors Champ. The Champ was
used to teach me how to properly protect the relatively weak nose
wheel of the RV-6A. The C-150 was used for everything else.
With the RV waiting on me, I earned my PPL in about three months.
Transition to the RV took about 4 hours.
So, where is the happy family now?
I now have about 50 hrs in the RV and my wife and I enjoy it more
each time we fly.
My son finished his PPL right after I got mine. After a short hiatus
he is resuming flying and looks forward to transition training in the
RV.
My wife will begin here training in the C-150 as soon as weather
allows.
Insurance? It's killing me. My son and I are insured to fly the
RV. We are all insured to fly the C-150. Tow low time pilots in the
RV~ $2200. C-150 insurance ~ $900. Our insurance agent said that
our rates would decrease at about 200 hrs.
My wife should finish her training this year. That will allow us to
sell the C-150. I *will* have 200 hrs in the RV by the time
insurance comes up again. My son has promised to do the same.
Hopefully Insurance will be down to ~ $1800 next year.
Later,
Wes
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
> Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air craft if
> the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are
expiremental
> aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For instance,
> getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
>
> Thanks
Author: "Kevin H." <onesickpup@...> Time: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:01 pm PST Link
Paul,
Keep this in mind while you are making your decision...
My boss got talked into buying his "trainer" airplane. It was a Cessna 150 or 152... ??? I forget now. He flew a few flights, had an annual, showed corrosion in the Emp., had to replace vertical and horizontal stabs.... flew a little while longer, and the engine timed out for TBO. All the while, he had to pay hanger space, pay for annuals, pay for maint., all in all when he sold it at a MAJOR loss, he is still interested in aviation. Keep in mind the upkeep of OWNING versus RENTING.
I think I have him(my boss) convinced to build Van's RV-10( instead of a composite! (Thanks Dana!!!)), even tho' I am about to begin building an RV-7. I still plan on learning in a rental, and I do believe Jen(my G/F) is going to learn in a rental as well. But we are still striving for the beginning of the RV-7, and who knows... we may rent spam-cans forever, but there will be a nice shiny RV-7 in the garage, with a Wankel rotary under the cowl, just waiting for our PPL.
Some of the benefits of owning an Experimental Aircraft, versus Spam Can, you "ARE" the annual inspector, you are the one responsible for maint., you can change anything you want, at any time, without needing FAA approval.
So... Consider all the options from the conservatives, and the radicals, and figure out where you fit in, THEN JUST GO FOR IT!!!!
But no matter what!!! As soon as you can.... Order that Emp!!!!
Sincerely,
Kevin H.
(ordering emp, and reserving wings before months end)
RV7or7A-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
----- Original Message -----
From: luap71
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:21 PM
Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Re: pilots license
wow what a great response from everyone. After giving it more thought,
and reading the reponses, I think that while it is possible to build
it and then learn in it I don't know how long it will take me to build
it, and I want to be in the air before that. Plus, I want to enjoy the
process of building it, and I think I would put alot of pressure on
myself to hurry up and get it done so that I could start flying.
So now I just need to sit down and figure out the expenses of owning
my own trainer vs. renting.
Then the real decision, an RV7a or RV10. Then should I go with a subie
or a lycoming .... haha but that is another thread.
Thanks for all the great feedback.
paul
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Author: "midniteoyl2" <midniteoyl@...> Time: Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:12 am PST Link
>>Your Private should not cost you more than about $3500
at most schools.<<
Thats cheap... all I've seen is $5500 and up
Jim
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing <pbesing@y...>
wrote:
> I don't know how many CFI's would be willing to do the
> fly off time. Not to mention, there is much more to
> do during the fly off time than just fly. You need to
> test the aircraft. You need to record data, squawks,
> etc. Then there will be a continued tweaking and
> maintenance during that time and after. In my
> opinion, you should be the one to do the fly off time.
>
> You might be able to find an out of work RV builder to
> help you fly off the time. I did this for a friend of
> mine who didn't have the time to fly the 40 hours. I
> flew about 20 hours of his time, and did some aircraft
> testing.
>
> Your Private should not cost you more than about $3500
> at most schools. Personally, I would get the rating,
> finish the airplane, get a checkout in an RV, and fly
> it off yourself. Just my $.02.
>
> Paul Besing
>
> --- luap71 <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I was
> > asking. I have flown
> > about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3 start
> > and stop of getting
> > my license. (I got moved around alot by my company,
> > but now I'm set in
> > place). And currently the only place that offers
> > lessons has 1 very
> > old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal avionics,
> > seats all tore up,
> > windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
> > Then I started thinking, I know I want to build an
> > airplane, I know I
> > want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour for
> > rental of a junker, why
> > not put that money into my own plane and then when
> > its done, find a
> > instructer that could teach me in it. The one thing
> > that does stick
> > out though is finding an instructor that could teach
> > me in the RV.
> > Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr burn
> > in (hey who is
> > gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight time)
> > and then once the
> > 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me. I
> > figure 40 hours
> > will be enough time for him to learn the plane and
> > therefore teach me.
> >
> > Or am I just making more trouble then its worth and
> > just pay the $85
> > an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will take 70
> > hours to finish my
> > pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane
> > rental, thats $5950.
> > That pays for the wing kit right there!
> >
> > -paul
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Author: "midniteoyl2" <midniteoyl@...> Time: Fri Mar 26, 2004 3:13 am PST Link
www.aso.com
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
> Oh I hadn't realized that the 60's planes could be had for low
20's.
> Is there a good place to go online to look for used planes?
>
> -paul
>
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Baker" <jon@s...> wrote:
> > I agree with Bob. Sure, it's possible to learn to fly in
anything.
> > But why make it harder than it already is?
> >
> > I'd be very concerned about the gear on an RV used as a
trainer.
> > It's just not designed for that kind of abuse. You're going to
> > bounce that nose wheel a dozen times before you get the hang of
> > landing. Do that hard enough in an RV and it will fold right up
on
> > you.
> >
> > I've said this before -- the best way to learn to fly is to buy
your
> > trainer -- a Cessna 150 or Piper Cherokee. If you can afford to
> > spend high 60's for an RV, you can surely afford low 20's for a
> > trainer. Do your homework, buy right, and when you're ready to
step
> > up you'll be able to sell it for maybe even a little more that
you
> > paid for it.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins"
<bcollins@m...>
> > wrote:
> > > In the situation I think you're describing, that is...you
build the
> > > plane, you get instruction in the plane, you get your
certificate
> > in
> > > the plane.... no.
> > >
> > > The "catch" is that while you are allowed to get flight
instruction
> > > in an experimental aircraft, you can NOT use an experimental
> > aircraft
> > > that has not yet flown off its required 25 or 40 initial hours
> > (i.e.
> > > phase one operation). If, for example, you had someone else
fly off
> > > those hours for you, then you could use the ship to receive
flight
> > > instruction. But see below for an important note on insurance.
> > >
> > > You'll also have to make sure your plane is equipped for night
> > > operation, since a PP certificate requires a certain amount of
> > night
> > > instruction. Same for the required instrument work in the PP
> > > certificate.
> > >
> > > You should also check to be sure you have an examiner who will
give
> > > you the practical test in an experimental. Many will not. And
it is
> > > up to them.
> > >
> > > You'll also need to consider the insurance question. You'll be
> > paying
> > > a lot to insure an aircraft when you are not even a pilot. For
> > > example, how would you be able to fly solo at a reasonable
> > cost...and
> > > that's even IF an insurance company would insure you and your
plane
> > > without a certificate.
> > >
> > > But forget about all of THAT, and think about this: Flying is
hard.
> > > learning how to fly...is hard. And we make fun of trainers all
the
> > > time, but they're trainers for a reason.
> > >
> > > When you're learning to fly...things come at you at a VERY
fast
> > > rate...landing is hard...radio work takes getting to used
to....and
> > > you've got a lot of work to do. And THAT's in a slow-moving,
docile
> > > trainer.
> > >
> > > Airplanes make LOUSY classrooms. You're trying to do many
things at
> > > once including listening to a lecture every couple of minutes.
> > > You may well be a natural-born pilot, but the reality is that
if
> > you
> > > use an RV, things will be coming at you three times as fast
and I
> > > would question -- just being an average pilot -- whether your
> > > quality of learning will be up to snuff.
> > >
> > > Now there are probably those who say that if you can LEARN in
an
> > RV,
> > > you'll be a better pilot in the long run. I'm not sure that's
true.
> > I
> > > made a lot of mistakes while flying a trainer and I'm pretty
sure
> > I'd
> > > be dead by now if I made those same mistakes in an RV.
> > >
> > > Just my opinion. YMMV.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > > St. Paul
> > > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...>
wrote:
> > > > Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air
craft
> > if
> > > > the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are
> > > expiremental
> > > > aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For
> > instance,
> > > > getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
Author: "Jon Baker" <jon@...> Time: Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:55 am PST Link
Somebody ought to add this post to the "newbies" section on the VAF
site. The question of building an RV to learn in comes up all the
time. Finally, we've got a guy who tried it, knows exactly how hard
it is, and can tell us from experience exactly why an RV is a lousy
trainer. And I just loved the happy ending, with the RV completed
and the whole family learning to fly! Brilliant post!
Jon.
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "wes9wm" <ragle@e...> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Here is a real life story. A man, his son, and his wife decide
that
> building and flying airplanes would be a great alternative to a 30
> year mortgage. We joined a local E.A.A. chapter and researched
> which model to build. We decides on a RV-6A and ordered the Q.B.
kit.
>
> While waiting on the kit we got impatient and decided to spend the
> engine money on a C-150 and learn to fly while we waited on the
kit.
> Well, about the time we got the plane and lined up an instructor
the
> kit arrived.
>
> Having never been around aviation (let alone airplane building), I
> found building to be a real challenge. With persistence, help from
> new friends, and lots of time, the airplane building progressed.
>
> Well, what about the C-150? It sat for about three years. With
> considerable fixed cost I might add. I found that I was unable to
> divide my time between a full time job, building an RV, and
learning
> to fly and maintain a C-150.
>
> Just about a year ago my RV-6A made its way to the airport.
Within
> one month of the move it was in the air courtesy of my tech.
> counselor/friend/test pilot. I couldn't wait to train in the
> airplane I had built. My friend flew the 40 hrs off (XP-360),
> provided transition training to my new flight instructor and handed
> the airplane off to him for some additional orientation.
>
> Finally, all was set and I began training. But, after about four
> hours my instructor decided that the RV did not make a good
trainer.
> His Reasons:
>
> 1) To easy to fly. You'll never learn proper rudder skills with
> this airplane.
> 2) How high does the wind need to be to fowl up turns about a
point.
> 3) Not good for touch and goes. Too far out of trim in landing
> configuration.
> 4) Not good for touch and goes. Oil temps start to get high.
> 5) You really don't want your first bad landing to be in this
> airplane. A prop strike would make you cry.
> 6) He really didn't want his student practicing departure stalls
in
> an RV.
> 7) He named many others, but these are what come to mind.
>
> So..., back to the C-150 and my instructors Champ. The Champ was
> used to teach me how to properly protect the relatively weak nose
> wheel of the RV-6A. The C-150 was used for everything else.
>
> With the RV waiting on me, I earned my PPL in about three months.
> Transition to the RV took about 4 hours.
>
> So, where is the happy family now?
> I now have about 50 hrs in the RV and my wife and I enjoy it more
> each time we fly.
> My son finished his PPL right after I got mine. After a short
hiatus
> he is resuming flying and looks forward to transition training in
the
> RV.
> My wife will begin here training in the C-150 as soon as weather
> allows.
>
> Insurance? It's killing me. My son and I are insured to fly the
> RV. We are all insured to fly the C-150. Tow low time pilots in
the
> RV~ $2200. C-150 insurance ~ $900. Our insurance agent said that
> our rates would decrease at about 200 hrs.
>
> My wife should finish her training this year. That will allow us
to
> sell the C-150. I *will* have 200 hrs in the RV by the time
> insurance comes up again. My son has promised to do the same.
> Hopefully Insurance will be down to ~ $1800 next year.
>
> Later,
>
> Wes
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air craft
if
> > the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are
> expiremental
> > aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For
instance,
> > getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
> >
> > Thanks
Author: Steve Brady <sjbrady79@...> Time: Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:19 am PST Link
Wes, that is a great story and congratulations on what you have
accomplished.
I bought an RV6-A just about a year ago. I have a partner in the plane and
we had low total hours and no time in an RV6-A. Our insurance for the
first year was around $1850. I now have about 120 hours and my partner
has considerably less. Our renewal quote was $1615. I thought you may
be interested in our insurance agent. We currently are insured with AIG.
His name is Dana Boucher and can be reached at 877-874-7296 or
danaboucher@.... Nice guy.
I hope you might find this information useful.
Regards,
Steve
wes9wm wrote:
>Paul,
>
>Here is a real life story. A man, his son, and his wife decide that
>building and flying airplanes would be a great alternative to a 30
>year mortgage. We joined a local E.A.A. chapter and researched
>which model to build. We decides on a RV-6A and ordered the Q.B. kit.
>
>While waiting on the kit we got impatient and decided to spend the
>engine money on a C-150 and learn to fly while we waited on the kit.
>Well, about the time we got the plane and lined up an instructor the
>kit arrived.
>
>Having never been around aviation (let alone airplane building), I
>found building to be a real challenge. With persistence, help from
>new friends, and lots of time, the airplane building progressed.
>
>Well, what about the C-150? It sat for about three years. With
>considerable fixed cost I might add. I found that I was unable to
>divide my time between a full time job, building an RV, and learning
>to fly and maintain a C-150.
>
>Just about a year ago my RV-6A made its way to the airport. Within
>one month of the move it was in the air courtesy of my tech.
>counselor/friend/test pilot. I couldn't wait to train in the
>airplane I had built. My friend flew the 40 hrs off (XP-360),
>provided transition training to my new flight instructor and handed
>the airplane off to him for some additional orientation.
>
>Finally, all was set and I began training. But, after about four
>hours my instructor decided that the RV did not make a good trainer.
>His Reasons:
>
>1) To easy to fly. You'll never learn proper rudder skills with
>this airplane.
>2) How high does the wind need to be to fowl up turns about a point.
>3) Not good for touch and goes. Too far out of trim in landing
>configuration.
>4) Not good for touch and goes. Oil temps start to get high.
>5) You really don't want your first bad landing to be in this
>airplane. A prop strike would make you cry.
>6) He really didn't want his student practicing departure stalls in
>an RV.
>7) He named many others, but these are what come to mind.
>
>So..., back to the C-150 and my instructors Champ. The Champ was
>used to teach me how to properly protect the relatively weak nose
>wheel of the RV-6A. The C-150 was used for everything else.
>
>With the RV waiting on me, I earned my PPL in about three months.
>Transition to the RV took about 4 hours.
>
>So, where is the happy family now?
>I now have about 50 hrs in the RV and my wife and I enjoy it more
>each time we fly.
>My son finished his PPL right after I got mine. After a short hiatus
>he is resuming flying and looks forward to transition training in the
>RV.
>My wife will begin here training in the C-150 as soon as weather
>allows.
>
>Insurance? It's killing me. My son and I are insured to fly the
>RV. We are all insured to fly the C-150. Tow low time pilots in the
>RV~ $2200. C-150 insurance ~ $900. Our insurance agent said that
>our rates would decrease at about 200 hrs.
>
>My wife should finish her training this year. That will allow us to
>sell the C-150. I *will* have 200 hrs in the RV by the time
>insurance comes up again. My son has promised to do the same.
>Hopefully Insurance will be down to ~ $1800 next year.
>
>Later,
>
>Wes
>--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
>>Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air craft if
>>the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are
>expiremental
>>aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For instance,
>>getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
>>
>>Thanks
>Online help on this group at:
>http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
Author: chuckm1046@... Time: Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:19 am PST Link
Paul,
I think you are about 20 or so miles from Watsonville. They have around six
flight schools and it is an excellent airport to fly out of. You might want to
check it out.
Chuck 7A QB
N377CP
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "Bob" <nutjob911@...> Time: Fri Mar 26, 2004 7:50 am PST Link
Paul: An RV,any RV is a high performance bird. The stall is almost
unannounced. The landing gear will not take any abuse. Touch and go's
require a fair amount of skill. Tail wheel is a whole another can
of worms you dont want to open at this stage. Everybody wants to
save money but flying is not the place Read: (THE KILLING ZONE) and
you will understand why.I would look for a Pa-28 Piper and an CFI
with some life experience...ie older than 18 and not on the way to
the airlines. Finish the private,log 100 hr,go for transition
training with Mike form vans or Sam get the six hours,Then start
learning RV . This is just my 2 cents but its from the heart.
Good luck
Bob Hill
-- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
> Could one earn their pilots license in an expiremental air craft
if
> the instructor had all the correct certificates? i.e. are
expiremental
> aircraft excluded from be used for earning FAA certs? For
instance,
> getting my private pilots license in a plane I built.
>
> Thanks
Author: "mitchw62" <N7155A@...> Time: Fri Mar 26, 2004 11:35 am PST Link
Paul,
I went through some of the same thought processes 8 years ago. You
can find lots of meaning info on the usenet group
rec.aviation.owning. Get there from Google>Groups or any mail reader.
Rentals were expensive, and far away. My wife had PPSEL, and I had
rented enough to solo. A fellow at work had just finished an RV6,
and that's what I wanted to do. He later died of cancer and airplane
was sold out-of-state.
But for me, money was the biggest factor. I went around the circle:
- Build a plane
- Buy and plane
- Or Rent?
Which is the lowest cost/hour – including all costs such as driving,
time, repairs, and upgrades?
We were 20 plus miles from any rentals, and they were going out of
business, we also wanted to travel in the plane to visit relative on
weekends, sot that eliminated rentals. Also, someone told me, you
will fly more if you buy a plane, because you don't have to justify
the additional
Still: Build a plane or Buy a plane.
In '97 we bought a '57 172 for $19,000. If found a local a&p who
taught me how to do maintenance, supervised installation of radios,
instruments, lots of stuff. A local CFI taught me to fly in it and I
used it for the check ride. I learned a lot about aircraft
maintenance and operation – much more than I would have renting. I
got the Auto fuel STC and did a bunch cheap flying.
In 2000 I installed/replaced more radios/instruments and did the
instrument rating. Money was tight so I sold half the 172 to a
partner. In 2001 we rented a Bo for 10 hours and got commercial –
did all the commercial prep in the 172; went on to get a CFI in 2003;
all this in "spare" time burning that cheap cargas.
The FBO had been out of business for about 10 yrs, so I formed a
company and bought C150 for instruction and rental. I and three
other flight instructors keep it real busy.
So now with 650 hrs, and lots of ratings, I'm thinking about an RV
again…
Mitch N7155A - N10681 - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/N10681/
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "luap71" <luap71@y...> wrote:
> wow what a great response from everyone. After giving it more
thought,
> and reading the reponses, I think that while it is possible to build
> it and then learn in it I don't know how long it will take me to
build
> it, and I want to be in the air before that. Plus, I want to enjoy
the
> process of building it, and I think I would put alot of pressure on
> myself to hurry up and get it done so that I could start flying.
>
> So now I just need to sit down and figure out the expenses of owning
> my own trainer vs. renting.
>
> Then the real decision, an RV7a or RV10. Then should I go with a
subie
> or a lycoming .... haha but that is another thread.
>
> Thanks for all the great feedback.
>
> paul
Author: Paul Besing <pbesing@...> Time: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:06 am PST Link
Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how $5500 is
possible? Even if you spent $80/hour for 20 hours
dual, and $50 for the 20 hours solo, that's only $2600
for the 40 hours. Do the ground school yourself ($300
for the king videos) and you are good to go. Add
examiner fees, books, etc, and you still could be
around $3500. Anyone charging $5500 is highway
robbery.
Paul Besing
--- midniteoyl2 <midniteoyl@...> wrote:
> >>Your Private should not cost you more than about
> $3500
> at most schools.<<
>
> Thats cheap... all I've seen is $5500 and up
>
> Jim
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing
> <pbesing@y...>
> wrote:
> > I don't know how many CFI's would be willing to do
> the
> > fly off time. Not to mention, there is much more
> to
> > do during the fly off time than just fly. You
> need to
> > test the aircraft. You need to record data,
> squawks,
> > etc. Then there will be a continued tweaking and
> > maintenance during that time and after. In my
> > opinion, you should be the one to do the fly off
> time.
> >
> > You might be able to find an out of work RV
> builder to
> > help you fly off the time. I did this for a
> friend of
> > mine who didn't have the time to fly the 40 hours.
> I
> > flew about 20 hours of his time, and did some
> aircraft
> > testing.
> >
> > Your Private should not cost you more than about
> $3500
> > at most schools. Personally, I would get the
> rating,
> > finish the airplane, get a checkout in an RV, and
> fly
> > it off yourself. Just my $.02.
> >
> > Paul Besing
> >
> > --- luap71 <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > > Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I was
> > > asking. I have flown
> > > about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3
> start
> > > and stop of getting
> > > my license. (I got moved around alot by my
> company,
> > > but now I'm set in
> > > place). And currently the only place that offers
> > > lessons has 1 very
> > > old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal
> avionics,
> > > seats all tore up,
> > > windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
> > > Then I started thinking, I know I want to build
> an
> > > airplane, I know I
> > > want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour for
> > > rental of a junker, why
> > > not put that money into my own plane and then
> when
> > > its done, find a
> > > instructer that could teach me in it. The one
> thing
> > > that does stick
> > > out though is finding an instructor that could
> teach
> > > me in the RV.
> > > Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr
> burn
> > > in (hey who is
> > > gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight
> time)
> > > and then once the
> > > 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me.
> I
> > > figure 40 hours
> > > will be enough time for him to learn the plane
> and
> > > therefore teach me.
> > >
> > > Or am I just making more trouble then its worth
> and
> > > just pay the $85
> > > an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will take
> 70
> > > hours to finish my
> > > pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane
> > > rental, thats $5950.
> > > That pays for the wing kit right there!
> > >
> > > -paul
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on
> time.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Author: Ron Lee <ronlee@...> Time: Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:31 am PST Link
Paul, I think someone may be quoting realistic numbers. If
I recall correctly, the typical hours required is closer to 60
(not the legal number...actual).
Plus where I live a 172 is $80-85 per hour plus instructor fee
of $20-25. I get closer to $5700 assuming 30 hours of dual.
When I was looking for an RV, I saw rental rates around $50
per hour in Illinois. Why so much different than Colorado?
Don't have a clue.
Ron Lee
Author: "Bob" <nutjob911@...> Time: Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:32 am PST Link
$80 an hour for dual. Not today, not in the NE,I pay $85 for a 30
year old Pa28-151 with a garmen 430 gps, $35 for an instructor.
I can rent a 152 with water in the tanks for a little less but
not much. Changing instructors slows everything up. 60 to 80 hr,s
is more the norm. $5000- $8000 is more realistic. Check the local
community college for ground school $150 is about right. Get the the
Gleim kit,comes with a nice bag $100. Oh yea if you are over 200lbs
and your instructor is a big eater also you can forget the 150/152
you will need a biger plane.
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing <pbesing@y...>
wrote:
> Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how $5500 is
> possible? Even if you spent $80/hour for 20 hours
> dual, and $50 for the 20 hours solo, that's only $2600
> for the 40 hours. Do the ground school yourself ($300
> for the king videos) and you are good to go. Add
> examiner fees, books, etc, and you still could be
> around $3500. Anyone charging $5500 is highway
> robbery.
>
> Paul Besing
> --- midniteoyl2 <midniteoyl@w...> wrote:
> > >>Your Private should not cost you more than about
> > $3500
> > at most schools.<<
> >
> > Thats cheap... all I've seen is $5500 and up
> >
> > Jim
> > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing
> > <pbesing@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > I don't know how many CFI's would be willing to do
> > the
> > > fly off time. Not to mention, there is much more
> > to
> > > do during the fly off time than just fly. You
> > need to
> > > test the aircraft. You need to record data,
> > squawks,
> > > etc. Then there will be a continued tweaking and
> > > maintenance during that time and after. In my
> > > opinion, you should be the one to do the fly off
> > time.
> > >
> > > You might be able to find an out of work RV
> > builder to
> > > help you fly off the time. I did this for a
> > friend of
> > > mine who didn't have the time to fly the 40 hours.
> > I
> > > flew about 20 hours of his time, and did some
> > aircraft
> > > testing.
> > >
> > > Your Private should not cost you more than about
> > $3500
> > > at most schools. Personally, I would get the
> > rating,
> > > finish the airplane, get a checkout in an RV, and
> > fly
> > > it off yourself. Just my $.02.
> > >
> > > Paul Besing
> > >
> > > --- luap71 <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > > > Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I was
> > > > asking. I have flown
> > > > about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3
> > start
> > > > and stop of getting
> > > > my license. (I got moved around alot by my
> > company,
> > > > but now I'm set in
> > > > place). And currently the only place that offers
> > > > lessons has 1 very
> > > > old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal
> > avionics,
> > > > seats all tore up,
> > > > windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
> > > > Then I started thinking, I know I want to build
> > an
> > > > airplane, I know I
> > > > want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour for
> > > > rental of a junker, why
> > > > not put that money into my own plane and then
> > when
> > > > its done, find a
> > > > instructer that could teach me in it. The one
> > thing
> > > > that does stick
> > > > out though is finding an instructor that could
> > teach
> > > > me in the RV.
> > > > Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr
> > burn
> > > > in (hey who is
> > > > gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight
> > time)
> > > > and then once the
> > > > 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me.
> > I
> > > > figure 40 hours
> > > > will be enough time for him to learn the plane
> > and
> > > > therefore teach me.
> > > >
> > > > Or am I just making more trouble then its worth
> > and
> > > > just pay the $85
> > > > an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will take
> > 70
> > > > hours to finish my
> > > > pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane
> > > > rental, thats $5950.
> > > > That pays for the wing kit right there!
> > > >
> > > > -paul
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on
> > time.
> > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Author: "Bob Collins" <bcollins@...> Time: Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:48 am PST Link
Also, check your local EAA chapter. Here in St. Paul (Lake Elmo,
actually), our local EAA chapter runs a FREE ground school. Might
find such a thing there to shave a few pennies off the total cost.
Bob
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <nutjob911@c...> wrote:
> $80 an hour for dual. Not today, not in the NE,I pay $85 for a 30
> year old Pa28-151 with a garmen 430 gps, $35 for an instructor.
> I can rent a 152 with water in the tanks for a little less but
> not much. Changing instructors slows everything up. 60 to 80 hr,s
> is more the norm. $5000- $8000 is more realistic. Check the local
> community college for ground school $150 is about right. Get the
the
> Gleim kit,comes with a nice bag $100. Oh yea if you are over
200lbs
> and your instructor is a big eater also you can forget the 150/152
> you will need a biger plane.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing <pbesing@y...>
> wrote:
> > Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how $5500 is
> > possible? Even if you spent $80/hour for 20 hours
> > dual, and $50 for the 20 hours solo, that's only $2600
> > for the 40 hours. Do the ground school yourself ($300
> > for the king videos) and you are good to go. Add
> > examiner fees, books, etc, and you still could be
> > around $3500. Anyone charging $5500 is highway
> > robbery.
> >
> > Paul Besing
> > --- midniteoyl2 <midniteoyl@w...> wrote:
> > > >>Your Private should not cost you more than about
> > > $3500
> > > at most schools.<<
> > >
> > > Thats cheap... all I've seen is $5500 and up
> > >
> > > Jim
> > > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing
> > > <pbesing@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I don't know how many CFI's would be willing to do
> > > the
> > > > fly off time. Not to mention, there is much more
> > > to
> > > > do during the fly off time than just fly. You
> > > need to
> > > > test the aircraft. You need to record data,
> > > squawks,
> > > > etc. Then there will be a continued tweaking and
> > > > maintenance during that time and after. In my
> > > > opinion, you should be the one to do the fly off
> > > time.
> > > >
> > > > You might be able to find an out of work RV
> > > builder to
> > > > help you fly off the time. I did this for a
> > > friend of
> > > > mine who didn't have the time to fly the 40 hours.
> > > I
> > > > flew about 20 hours of his time, and did some
> > > aircraft
> > > > testing.
> > > >
> > > > Your Private should not cost you more than about
> > > $3500
> > > > at most schools. Personally, I would get the
> > > rating,
> > > > finish the airplane, get a checkout in an RV, and
> > > fly
> > > > it off yourself. Just my $.02.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Besing
> > > >
> > > > --- luap71 <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I was
> > > > > asking. I have flown
> > > > > about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3
> > > start
> > > > > and stop of getting
> > > > > my license. (I got moved around alot by my
> > > company,
> > > > > but now I'm set in
> > > > > place). And currently the only place that offers
> > > > > lessons has 1 very
> > > > > old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal
> > > avionics,
> > > > > seats all tore up,
> > > > > windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
> > > > > Then I started thinking, I know I want to build
> > > an
> > > > > airplane, I know I
> > > > > want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour for
> > > > > rental of a junker, why
> > > > > not put that money into my own plane and then
> > > when
> > > > > its done, find a
> > > > > instructer that could teach me in it. The one
> > > thing
> > > > > that does stick
> > > > > out though is finding an instructor that could
> > > teach
> > > > > me in the RV.
> > > > > Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr
> > > burn
> > > > > in (hey who is
> > > > > gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight
> > > time)
> > > > > and then once the
> > > > > 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me.
> > > I
> > > > > figure 40 hours
> > > > > will be enough time for him to learn the plane
> > > and
> > > > > therefore teach me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or am I just making more trouble then its worth
> > > and
> > > > > just pay the $85
> > > > > an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will take
> > > 70
> > > > > hours to finish my
> > > > > pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane
> > > > > rental, thats $5950.
> > > > > That pays for the wing kit right there!
> > > > >
> > > > > -paul
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on
> > > time.
> > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Author: "zsadecki2" <yahoo@...> Time: Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:49 am PST Link
$3500 was doable pre-9/11. Now $5500 is probably right on the money
now... ;)
I got my PPSEL training slowly over the last 2 years (thanks to
multiple layoffs). Because of that, switching instructors, foolishly
flying the brand new 172s sometimes (because they're new!) and
switching planes (to a symphony becuase it was fun and cheap (and
new!)) my overall cost was probably closer to $6-6.5k. My totals are
35hrs dual and 25 solo. Instructor was $35/hr, old junky 172s $85/hr,
new 172s $120/hr, and my beloved symphony is $85/hr.
So it was pretty expensive. I could have made it cheaper if I had
stuck to the old 172s, and maybe even the 152 (which was $75/hr i
think). And if I had done it more quickly, but that wasn't really my
choice. But at this point I don't really care much, since I'm a
licensed pilot as of 2/15/04!
Zach Sadecki, future 7A builder...
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing <pbesing@y...> wrote:
> Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how $5500 is
> possible? Even if you spent $80/hour for 20 hours
> dual, and $50 for the 20 hours solo, that's only $2600
> for the 40 hours. Do the ground school yourself ($300
> for the king videos) and you are good to go. Add
> examiner fees, books, etc, and you still could be
> around $3500. Anyone charging $5500 is highway
> robbery.
>
> Paul Besing
> --- midniteoyl2 <midniteoyl@w...> wrote:
> > >>Your Private should not cost you more than about
> > $3500
> > at most schools.<<
> >
> > Thats cheap... all I've seen is $5500 and up
> >
> > Jim
Author: "midniteoyl2" <midniteoyl@...> Time: Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:45 am PST Link
>>Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how $5500 is
> possible?<<
Check it out:
http://www.wisconsinaviation.com/flight/intro.html#specprogs (scroll
down alittle)
http://www.waukeshaflyingservices.com/school.htm (scroll about
halfway)
http://www.wingsaircharter.com/instructor.htm#Commercial (scroll UP
alittle)
And thats if you do it in 'mininum' or 'average' time... These are
just a couple of local schools with web sites, others are similar in
price...
Jim
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing <pbesing@y...>
wrote:
> Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how $5500 is
> possible? Even if you spent $80/hour for 20 hours
> dual, and $50 for the 20 hours solo, that's only $2600
> for the 40 hours. Do the ground school yourself ($300
> for the king videos) and you are good to go. Add
> examiner fees, books, etc, and you still could be
> around $3500. Anyone charging $5500 is highway
> robbery.
>
> Paul Besing
> --- midniteoyl2 <midniteoyl@w...> wrote:
> > >>Your Private should not cost you more than about
> > $3500
> > at most schools.<<
> >
> > Thats cheap... all I've seen is $5500 and up
> >
> > Jim
> > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing
> > <pbesing@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > I don't know how many CFI's would be willing to do
> > the
> > > fly off time. Not to mention, there is much more
> > to
> > > do during the fly off time than just fly. You
> > need to
> > > test the aircraft. You need to record data,
> > squawks,
> > > etc. Then there will be a continued tweaking and
> > > maintenance during that time and after. In my
> > > opinion, you should be the one to do the fly off
> > time.
> > >
> > > You might be able to find an out of work RV
> > builder to
> > > help you fly off the time. I did this for a
> > friend of
> > > mine who didn't have the time to fly the 40 hours.
> > I
> > > flew about 20 hours of his time, and did some
> > aircraft
> > > testing.
> > >
> > > Your Private should not cost you more than about
> > $3500
> > > at most schools. Personally, I would get the
> > rating,
> > > finish the airplane, get a checkout in an RV, and
> > fly
> > > it off yourself. Just my $.02.
> > >
> > > Paul Besing
> > >
> > > --- luap71 <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > > > Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I was
> > > > asking. I have flown
> > > > about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3
> > start
> > > > and stop of getting
> > > > my license. (I got moved around alot by my
> > company,
> > > > but now I'm set in
> > > > place). And currently the only place that offers
> > > > lessons has 1 very
> > > > old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal
> > avionics,
> > > > seats all tore up,
> > > > windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
> > > > Then I started thinking, I know I want to build
> > an
> > > > airplane, I know I
> > > > want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour for
> > > > rental of a junker, why
> > > > not put that money into my own plane and then
> > when
> > > > its done, find a
> > > > instructer that could teach me in it. The one
> > thing
> > > > that does stick
> > > > out though is finding an instructor that could
> > teach
> > > > me in the RV.
> > > > Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr
> > burn
> > > > in (hey who is
> > > > gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight
> > time)
> > > > and then once the
> > > > 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me.
> > I
> > > > figure 40 hours
> > > > will be enough time for him to learn the plane
> > and
> > > > therefore teach me.
> > > >
> > > > Or am I just making more trouble then its worth
> > and
> > > > just pay the $85
> > > > an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will take
> > 70
> > > > hours to finish my
> > > > pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane
> > > > rental, thats $5950.
> > > > That pays for the wing kit right there!
> > > >
> > > > -paul
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on
> > time.
> > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Author: Paul Besing <pbesing@...> Time: Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:20 pm PST Link
I guess that's the problem with flight schools. They
can drag it out as long as they want, by not signing
you off, etc. 40 hours of instruction seems a little
much to me, especially if you study on your own with a
video course. The video courses teach you the written
test, but also teaches you alot of things that the
instructor does on the ground.
When I did mine, I had a private instructor, and we
were both checked out at a local flight school. Back
then, the airplanes were $35/hour, and my instructor
was $15/hour. Now many private instructors are
$20/hour in my area. Also, when you hire a private
instructor, I think they might be a little less likely
to charge you by a stopwatch like the flight schools
do. Those 15 minutes pre flight and 15 minutes post
flight instruction can add up quick. At least it did
when I got my additional ratings after private. You
look at your receipt, and you see a partial hour
charge for 10 minutes while they explained the
maneuvers you were going to do for the day!
Sorry for the off RV topic thread this has turned to,
but it is quite amuzing at what the flight schools
want nowadays!
Paul Besing
--- midniteoyl2 <midniteoyl@...> wrote:
> >>Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how
> $5500 is
> > possible?<<
> Check it out:
http://www.wisconsinaviation.com/flight/intro.html#specprogs
> (scroll
> down alittle)
>
> http://www.waukeshaflyingservices.com/school.htm
> (scroll about
> halfway)
http://www.wingsaircharter.com/instructor.htm#Commercial
> (scroll UP
> alittle)
>
> And thats if you do it in 'mininum' or 'average'
> time... These are
> just a couple of local schools with web sites,
> others are similar in
> price...
>
> Jim
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing
> <pbesing@y...>
> wrote:
> > Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how
> $5500 is
> > possible? Even if you spent $80/hour for 20 hours
> > dual, and $50 for the 20 hours solo, that's only
> $2600
> > for the 40 hours. Do the ground school yourself
> ($300
> > for the king videos) and you are good to go. Add
> > examiner fees, books, etc, and you still could be
> > around $3500. Anyone charging $5500 is highway
> > robbery.
> >
> > Paul Besing
> > --- midniteoyl2 <midniteoyl@w...> wrote:
> > > >>Your Private should not cost you more than
> about
> > > $3500
> > > at most schools.<<
> > >
> > > Thats cheap... all I've seen is $5500 and up
> > >
> > > Jim
> > > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing
> > > <pbesing@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I don't know how many CFI's would be willing
> to do
> > > the
> > > > fly off time. Not to mention, there is much
> more
> > > to
> > > > do during the fly off time than just fly. You
> > > need to
> > > > test the aircraft. You need to record data,
> > > squawks,
> > > > etc. Then there will be a continued tweaking
> and
> > > > maintenance during that time and after. In my
> > > > opinion, you should be the one to do the fly
> off
> > > time.
> > > >
> > > > You might be able to find an out of work RV
> > > builder to
> > > > help you fly off the time. I did this for a
> > > friend of
> > > > mine who didn't have the time to fly the 40
> hours.
> > > I
> > > > flew about 20 hours of his time, and did some
> > > aircraft
> > > > testing.
> > > >
> > > > Your Private should not cost you more than
> about
> > > $3500
> > > > at most schools. Personally, I would get the
> > > rating,
> > > > finish the airplane, get a checkout in an RV,
> and
> > > fly
> > > > it off yourself. Just my $.02.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Besing
> > > >
> > > > --- luap71 <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I
> was
> > > > > asking. I have flown
> > > > > about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3
> > > start
> > > > > and stop of getting
> > > > > my license. (I got moved around alot by my
> > > company,
> > > > > but now I'm set in
> > > > > place). And currently the only place that
> offers
> > > > > lessons has 1 very
> > > > > old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal
> > > avionics,
> > > > > seats all tore up,
> > > > > windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
> > > > > Then I started thinking, I know I want to
> build
> > > an
> > > > > airplane, I know I
> > > > > want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour
> for
> > > > > rental of a junker, why
> > > > > not put that money into my own plane and
> then
> > > when
> > > > > its done, find a
> > > > > instructer that could teach me in it. The
> one
> > > thing
> > > > > that does stick
> > > > > out though is finding an instructor that
> could
> > > teach
> > > > > me in the RV.
> > > > > Could I have the local instructor do the
> 40hr
> > > burn
> > > > > in (hey who is
> > > > > gonna turn down free (gas not included)
> flight
> > > time)
> > > > > and then once the
> > > > > 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing
> me.
> > > I
> > > > > figure 40 hours
> > > > > will be enough time for him to learn the
> plane
> > > and
> > > > > therefore teach me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or am I just making more trouble then its
> worth
> > > and
> > > > > just pay the $85
> > > > > an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will
> take
> > > 70
> > > > > hours to finish my
> > > > > pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the
> plane
> > > > > rental, thats $5950.
> > > > > That pays for the wing kit right there!
> > > > >
> > > > > -paul
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File
> on
> > > time.
> > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on
> time.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Author: Paul Besing <pbesing@...> Time: Sat Mar 27, 2004 12:20 pm PST Link
Out west you can get those prices. The flight school
I just left a year ago was renting 152's for $45/hour
wet, $75 dual. 172's were $55/$60/hour.
I'm surprised it takes 60-80 hours. If one were to
fly regularly, I can't see why you can't do it in
40-50. If you spread it over 2 years, then ok I think
I can see that.
Bottom line is, if you find a school with plenty of
airplanes, instructors, and available time, and you
have the time and money to fly 2-3 times per week, I
think a $4000 (Or less) PPSEL is possible. Maybe that
is out west only, but it is possible. I have seen
people fly everyday and do their license in 3-4 weeks
as well. All depends on the money and time available.
But, the more you spend up front and fly regularly,
the less it will cost you in the long run.
I took 2 years to do my private about 10 years ago,
and I ended up with about 60 hours I think.
One more thing, there are ALOT of out of work CFI's
out there with the airline situation being what it is.
If you look, you may find a CFI with an airplane that
will be CHEAP. They need to build time, and can do it
for alot cheaper than a flight school. Or, if you
purchase a 152 or somethng similar, you can find a CFI
to instruct you in your airplane, and for sure you
will have a cheap rating, as long as you had a solid
airplane. For example, if you buy a 152, buy a
$25,000 one and not a $12,000 one. You get your
license in it, then sell it for what you paid for it.
All you did is tie up your money for 6 months. If you
try and save money and buy a cheaper one, you probably
will spend more on maintenance than it would cost you
to just go rent one. (I went through this very
problem with a C-140 that I lost money on)
My opinions only, of course your mileage may vary!
Paul Besing
--- Bob <nutjob911@...> wrote:
> $80 an hour for dual. Not today, not in the NE,I pay
> $85 for a 30
> year old Pa28-151 with a garmen 430 gps, $35 for an
> instructor.
> I can rent a 152 with water in the tanks for a
> little less but
> not much. Changing instructors slows everything up.
> 60 to 80 hr,s
> is more the norm. $5000- $8000 is more realistic.
> Check the local
> community college for ground school $150 is about
> right. Get the the
> Gleim kit,comes with a nice bag $100. Oh yea if you
> are over 200lbs
> and your instructor is a big eater also you can
> forget the 150/152
> you will need a biger plane.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing
> <pbesing@y...>
> wrote:
> > Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how
> $5500 is
> > possible? Even if you spent $80/hour for 20 hours
> > dual, and $50 for the 20 hours solo, that's only
> $2600
> > for the 40 hours. Do the ground school yourself
> ($300
> > for the king videos) and you are good to go. Add
> > examiner fees, books, etc, and you still could be
> > around $3500. Anyone charging $5500 is highway
> > robbery.
> >
> > Paul Besing
> > --- midniteoyl2 <midniteoyl@w...> wrote:
> > > >>Your Private should not cost you more than
> about
> > > $3500
> > > at most schools.<<
> > >
> > > Thats cheap... all I've seen is $5500 and up
> > >
> > > Jim
> > > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing
> > > <pbesing@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I don't know how many CFI's would be willing
> to do
> > > the
> > > > fly off time. Not to mention, there is much
> more
> > > to
> > > > do during the fly off time than just fly. You
> > > need to
> > > > test the aircraft. You need to record data,
> > > squawks,
> > > > etc. Then there will be a continued tweaking
> and
> > > > maintenance during that time and after. In my
> > > > opinion, you should be the one to do the fly
> off
> > > time.
> > > >
> > > > You might be able to find an out of work RV
> > > builder to
> > > > help you fly off the time. I did this for a
> > > friend of
> > > > mine who didn't have the time to fly the 40
> hours.
> > > I
> > > > flew about 20 hours of his time, and did some
> > > aircraft
> > > > testing.
> > > >
> > > > Your Private should not cost you more than
> about
> > > $3500
> > > > at most schools. Personally, I would get the
> > > rating,
> > > > finish the airplane, get a checkout in an RV,
> and
> > > fly
> > > > it off yourself. Just my $.02.
> > > >
> > > > Paul Besing
> > > >
> > > > --- luap71 <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I
> was
> > > > > asking. I have flown
> > > > > about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3
> > > start
> > > > > and stop of getting
> > > > > my license. (I got moved around alot by my
> > > company,
> > > > > but now I'm set in
> > > > > place). And currently the only place that
> offers
> > > > > lessons has 1 very
> > > > > old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal
> > > avionics,
> > > > > seats all tore up,
> > > > > windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
> > > > > Then I started thinking, I know I want to
> build
> > > an
> > > > > airplane, I know I
> > > > > want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour
> for
> > > > > rental of a junker, why
> > > > > not put that money into my own plane and
> then
> > > when
> > > > > its done, find a
> > > > > instructer that could teach me in it. The
> one
> > > thing
> > > > > that does stick
> > > > > out though is finding an instructor that
> could
> > > teach
> > > > > me in the RV.
> > > > > Could I have the local instructor do the
> 40hr
> > > burn
> > > > > in (hey who is
> > > > > gonna turn down free (gas not included)
> flight
> > > time)
> > > > > and then once the
> > > > > 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing
> me.
> > > I
> > > > > figure 40 hours
> > > > > will be enough time for him to learn the
> plane
> > > and
> > > > > therefore teach me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or am I just making more trouble then its
> worth
> > > and
> > > > > just pay the $85
> > > > > an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will
> take
> > > 70
> > > > > hours to finish my
> > > > > pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the
> plane
> > > > > rental, thats $5950.
> > > > > That pays for the wing kit right there!
> > > > >
> > > > > -paul
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File
> on
> > > time.
> > > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on
> time.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Author: rjdickensheets@... Time: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:46 pm PST Link
As a former flight instructor at a small FBO in extreme Northern Ca. I read
this thread with a lot of interest. I have some thoughts.
I remember renting a 152 for $40 per hour in 1997. Fuel was about $2 per
gallon. I did my PPL for about $3000.
Over the next few years there seemed to be a sharp increase in cost. I
eventually went to work at the same FBO as a CFI. The owner of the FBO shared with
me some of his financial records. His insurance cost doubled between '99 and
'01. The price of fuel steadily increased also. His fleet of four aircraft flew
approx 1500hrs a year. There were two incidents during that time frame which
caused substantial damage to aircraft (nobody injured thankfully). Each
incident caused lost revenue from rental, as well as the mx shop as the damage was
repaired.
CFI turnover was high because folks were hiring. The most qualified CFIs were
always leaving. There are very few career flight instructors. Most can not
afford it.
CFI pay is incredibly low if you consider the professionalism and
responsibility they usually have. The FBO will take about half of what the customer pays.
This is due to insurance cost on the pilot group. If the wx is poor you may
go days without earning very much. Many of them wait tables at night.
I remember flight instruction fondly. I was good at it. When a student brings
the whole family to the airport to watch them solo - well it is a pleasant
feeling.
Most students have trouble staying away from the airport in the days
following their first solo. They will usually fly several hours while accomplishing
very little toward the syllabus. I can't blame them, it's supposed to be fun
remember.
Anyway the heavy iron called my name one day and I too made like a sheep
herder and got the flock out of there. I left with short notice and my students
were heart broken and frustrated. Some were just about to take the practical. I
apologized several times, coordinated their continued training as best I could
and left. They were not upset with me so much as the system.
The current system is not perfect - people trying to make a living at what
some consider a hobby. It's tough. I have lived both sides of the problem.
I guess the grass is always greener by the other taxiway because I recently
have the itch to instruct again. I don't mean full time (I have a day job) but
if there is someone reading this who lives near KCXO I would enjoy the
opportunity to interact with a fellow RV enthusiast and possibly assist in the
training process.
Ryan Dickensheets
rjdickensheets@...
805 895 7035 cell
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Author: "David Domeier" <davidd010@...> Time: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 am PST Link
Two items are driving the price of flight instruction up - fuel and insurance.
AV gas is $3.25 locally which means about $25-30/hour for fuel alone in a
172.
Insurance is out of sight because of the loss rate in primary instruction. Two
years ago locally there was a fatality and another hull lost and the flight
school is now out of business. That company had been very busy with about
10 airplanes and many instructors.
I would guess there are thousands of persons applying for military flight
training these days, even with mini wars going on.
dd
Author: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <lloyddr@...> Time: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:00 am PST Link
The hourly cost for training has skyrocketed. I am currently finishing
my private license, about 40 hours into it. When I first started in
Colorado Springs it was $85 an hour for the plane and $30 for the
instructor, and based on current National average of 67 hours to
complete they were predicting $7k for me to finish. Since then I have
relo'd to Western PA, and even here the rental rate is $70 an hour for a
really old 152 and $20 an hour for the instructor. I believe with
teaching myself the ground school, and being conservative on the flight
time, it will still cost me in the excess of $4k. The cheapest I have
found is the at an all inclusive school in Florida or Arizona, they will
teach you in 21 days for PPL for around $3500, but with a job and family
who can give up 3 weeks in a row to learn.
I to wanted to build the RV, have a friend fly off the 40 hours, and
then get someone to teach me in it. I would have done it this way if I
stayed in Colorado, but fortunately I was able to relo and find
affordable training.
This has set my building back by 1 year, but going forward I have found
that many of the decisions I had made not knowing what is important in a
plane has changed. I am now making better decisions on equipping my
plane based on experience (no matter how little) rather than just
guessing. Conversely, I am also able to better realize when good enough
is good enough. I am an engineer type, and spent allot of time sweating
about the quality of my work, if something was a little out of
tolerance, I would replace it with a new part and start over. Now I
realize, perfection is not realistic, nor will you ever finish. When you
look at the trainer's that have thousands of hours on them from circa
1960, and see the type of work that was done on them and they are still
flying, it gives you the faith in your work that it will be better than
the workers at the SPAMCAN shop.
Long story short, I started this process with two goals in mind, learn
to fly, and build and own one of the best planes available. I will still
be able to realize that goal it is just in a different order. No matter
what way you choose to go about it, those two things will have to be
accomplished. My .02, I think it is better to start the Emp, then take a
break, learn to fly and then continue building, your whole perspective
on it will change, and your motivation will grow. The choices you make
concerning your plane will also benefit from flying as many different
models of planes as possible. This will help you see what works, and
better yet what does not.
Like I said my .02
Dan
Still building wings, but more importantly "FLYING"
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Besing [mailto:pbesing@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:14 AM
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Re: pilots license
Holy cow they have gone up. I'm not sure how $5500 is possible? Even
if you spent $80/hour for 20 hours dual, and $50 for the 20 hours solo,
that's only $2600 for the 40 hours. Do the ground school yourself ($300
for the king videos) and you are good to go. Add examiner fees, books,
etc, and you still could be around $3500. Anyone charging $5500 is
highway robbery.
Paul Besing
--- midniteoyl2 <midniteoyl@...> wrote:
> >>Your Private should not cost you more than about
> $3500
> at most schools.<<
>
> Thats cheap... all I've seen is $5500 and up
>
> Jim
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Paul Besing <pbesing@y...>
> wrote:
> > I don't know how many CFI's would be willing to do
> the
> > fly off time. Not to mention, there is much more
> to
> > do during the fly off time than just fly. You
> need to
> > test the aircraft. You need to record data,
> squawks,
> > etc. Then there will be a continued tweaking and maintenance during
> > that time and after. In my opinion, you should be the one to do the
> > fly off
> time.
> >
> > You might be able to find an out of work RV
> builder to
> > help you fly off the time. I did this for a
> friend of
> > mine who didn't have the time to fly the 40 hours.
> I
> > flew about 20 hours of his time, and did some
> aircraft
> > testing.
> >
> > Your Private should not cost you more than about
> $3500
> > at most schools. Personally, I would get the
> rating,
> > finish the airplane, get a checkout in an RV, and
> fly
> > it off yourself. Just my $.02.
> >
> > Paul Besing
> >
> > --- luap71 <luap71@y...> wrote:
> > > Thanks for all the feedback. Here is why I was
> > > asking. I have flown
> > > about 20 hours over the last 3-4 years in 3
> start
> > > and stop of getting
> > > my license. (I got moved around alot by my
> company,
> > > but now I'm set in
> > > place). And currently the only place that offers
> > > lessons has 1 very
> > > old cesna 172. early 60's, very minimal
> avionics,
> > > seats all tore up,
> > > windshield a little hazy, but it fly's.
> > > Then I started thinking, I know I want to build
> an
> > > airplane, I know I
> > > want to fly, so instead of paying $85 hour for
> > > rental of a junker, why
> > > not put that money into my own plane and then
> when
> > > its done, find a
> > > instructer that could teach me in it. The one
> thing
> > > that does stick
> > > out though is finding an instructor that could
> teach
> > > me in the RV.
> > > Could I have the local instructor do the 40hr
> burn
> > > in (hey who is
> > > gonna turn down free (gas not included) flight
> time)
> > > and then once the
> > > 40 hrs of burn in is done, start instructing me.
> I
> > > figure 40 hours
> > > will be enough time for him to learn the plane
> and
> > > therefore teach me.
> > >
> > > Or am I just making more trouble then its worth
> and
> > > just pay the $85
> > > an hour for junker cessna? Figure it will take
> 70
> > > hours to finish my
> > > pilots license at 85 bucks an hour for the plane
> > > rental, thats $5950.
> > > That pays for the wing kit right there!
> > >
> > > -paul
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on
> time.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
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