Author: Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@...> Time: Fri Dec 3, 2004 8:04 pm PST Link
Steve:
How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational field.
Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
Dang, where did I put my physics book?
Barry
steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however, water vapor
is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in the form
of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the presure
and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
Jon:
I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
disappear. It is an urban myth.
Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
There are laws of physics present in this operation:
1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the chamber.
While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a liquid state.
It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the oil has.
Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if you want
to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
increases.
2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING - from
the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return flow to
the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State of the
oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser NON-Vapor
State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and returned
to the sump.
Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front seal???? <-
Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
How in the world is this going to happen?
Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is COOLING ...
After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If it did
not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
engine AND oil could not do its duty.
QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be careful
as you answer it!
ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not develop.
Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the order of
physical acceptance.
So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during flight
... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil temperature of
140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the reasons
above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be considered.
If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not evaporate? (Lets
use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a Dew Point
of 70 Deg F.)
SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is designed
to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you going to say
CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the formula
... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a factor]. 2>
The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall into the
sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to read it
and disperse this urban myth.
I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the internet
is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could not be as
successful.
Barry
Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
space.
By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
Jon.
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
>
> Scott:
>
> This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
and
> 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
ever you can into the area available.
> Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
$20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
>
> Barry
>
> Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
>
> As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
with
> it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
the
> firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
Any
> suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> Van Arts Consulting Services
> 3848 McHenry Ave
> Suite #155-184
> Modesto, CA 95356
> 209-986-4647
> Ps 34:4,6
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: "Michael" <michael@...> Time: Sat Dec 4, 2004 5:26 am PST Link
Barry,
You are missing something critical to the equation. The water vapor
is continually being added to the crankcase due to combustion gas
blowby. A large component of the combustion gasses is water. About
10 pounds are created for every gallon of gasoline burned.
When you first start your engine the cold oil condenses most of the
blowby water to liquid but as you operate and the oil gets warm, it
evaporates as you said. This cold operation condensation is one
reason IC engines wear out so rapidly in short duty cycle operations.
I think the concern that the water vapor that is continually being
added to the crankcase might freeze in the oil-air separator is valid
if that device is in a cold enough air stream. If that were to
happen then it is conceivable that the crankcase would overpressurize
and blow a seal. Granted the scenario requires the water to freeze
in the separator and I have no opinion on that. If it is urban
legend, then the oil separator must not be able to freeze, otherwise
everything else is in place.
Also,
If I have a cup of water it will have some known mass. If I boil the
water to a vapor, it will still have the same mass but more volume.
If I freeze it it will still have the same mass. Perhaps this was
what Steve was meaning.
-mike
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
>
> Steve:
>
> How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
> Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the
properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the
same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of
its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of
material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational
field.
> Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
> Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
> Barry
> steve zicree <szicree@a...> wrote:
>
> Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however,
water vapor
> is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
the form
> of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the
separator?
> Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the
presure
> and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the
return
> path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@y...>
> To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> Jon:
> I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see
it
> disappear. It is an urban myth.
> Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
chamber.
> While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a
liquid state.
> It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
oil has.
> Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if
you want
> to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as
altitude
> increases.
> 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After
COOLING - from
> the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
flow to
> the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor
State of the
> oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser
NON-Vapor
> State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
returned
> to the sump.
> Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front
seal???? <-
> Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> How in the world is this going to happen?
> Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The
water is
> coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
COOLING ...
> After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If
it did
> not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of
our
> engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be
careful
> as you answer it!
> ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not
develop.
> Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the
order of
> physical acceptance.
> So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during
flight
> ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
temperature of
> 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
reasons
> above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
considered.
> If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not
evaporate? (Lets
> use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a
Dew Point
> of 70 Deg F.)
> SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
designed
> to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you
going to say
> CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into
the formula
> ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air
space
> between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two
air
> spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a
factor]. 2>
> The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
into the
> sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to
read it
> and disperse this urban myth.
> I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the
internet
> is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could
not be as
> successful.
> Barry
> Jon Baker <jon@s...> wrote:
> I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean.
But
> oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
> 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
> I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that
Van's
> sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil
blows
> right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor,
it's
> probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm
on
> top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper
than
> anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> space.
>
> By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
> Jon.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > Scott:
> >
> > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> and
> > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in
what
> ever you can into the area available.
> > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for
about
> $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap
aluminum.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> >
> > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> with
> > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> the
> > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> Any
> > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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Author: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@...> Time: Sat Dec 4, 2004 5:26 am PST Link
Okay guys... Slime fighter... good, bad, or what?
Barry AV8R wrote:
> Steve:
>
> How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
> crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
> crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
> process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
> Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the properties
> of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the same Mass.
> Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of its inertia
> and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of material it
> contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational field.
> Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
> statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
> Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
> Barry
> steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however, water
> vapor
> is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
> the form
> of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
> Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the presure
> and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
> path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
> To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> Jon:
> I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
> disappear. It is an urban myth.
> Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
> chamber.
> While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a liquid
> state.
> It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
> oil has.
> Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if you
> want
> to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
> increases.
> 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING -
> from
> the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
> flow to
> the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State
> of the
> oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser NON-Vapor
> State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
> returned
> to the sump.
> Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front seal???? <-
> Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> How in the world is this going to happen?
> Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
> coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
> COOLING ...
> After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If it did
> not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
> engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be careful
> as you answer it!
> ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not develop.
> Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the order of
> physical acceptance.
> So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during flight
> ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
> temperature of
> 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
> reasons
> above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
> considered.
> If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not evaporate?
> (Lets
> use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a Dew
> Point
> of 70 Deg F.)
> SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
> designed
> to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you going
> to say
> CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the
> formula
> ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
> between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
> spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a factor]. 2>
> The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
> into the
> sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to read it
> and disperse this urban myth.
> I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the internet
> is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could not
> be as
> successful.
> Barry
> Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
> I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
> oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
> 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
> I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
> sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
> right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
> probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
> top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
> anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> space.
>
> By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
> Jon.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Scott:
> >
> > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> and
> > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
> ever you can into the area available.
> > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
> $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> >
> > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> with
> > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> the
> > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> Any
> > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
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Author: "steve zicree" <szicree@...> Time: Sat Dec 4, 2004 5:26 am PST Link
Barry,
During combustion, some gasses slip right past the rings into the crankcase. Water is one component of these. These blow-by gasses are precisely the reason we need some sort of crankcase ventilation. Once these gasses are pushed out of the case, I see no reason why they couldn't condense in lines or a separator.
Regarding the mass thing, a gram of water is a gram of water, regardless of what state it's in. If you freeze a gram of water, you get a gram of ice. Likewise if you convert it to gas.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry AV8R
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Steve:
How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational field.
Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
Dang, where did I put my physics book?
Barry
steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however, water vapor
is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in the form
of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the presure
and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
Jon:
I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
disappear. It is an urban myth.
Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
There are laws of physics present in this operation:
1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the chamber.
While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a liquid state.
It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the oil has.
Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if you want
to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
increases.
2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING - from
the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return flow to
the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State of the
oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser NON-Vapor
State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and returned
to the sump.
Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front seal???? <-
Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
How in the world is this going to happen?
Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is COOLING ...
After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If it did
not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
engine AND oil could not do its duty.
QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be careful
as you answer it!
ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not develop.
Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the order of
physical acceptance.
So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during flight
... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil temperature of
140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the reasons
above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be considered.
If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not evaporate? (Lets
use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a Dew Point
of 70 Deg F.)
SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is designed
to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you going to say
CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the formula
... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a factor]. 2>
The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall into the
sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to read it
and disperse this urban myth.
I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the internet
is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could not be as
successful.
Barry
Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
space.
By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
Jon.
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
>
> Scott:
>
> This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
and
> 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
ever you can into the area available.
> Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
$20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
>
> Barry
>
> Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
>
> As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
with
> it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
the
> firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
Any
> suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> Van Arts Consulting Services
> 3848 McHenry Ave
> Suite #155-184
> Modesto, CA 95356
> 209-986-4647
> Ps 34:4,6
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@...> Time: Sat Dec 4, 2004 9:06 am PST Link
This is exactly why these lists are becoming so useless. You ivory
tower types just want to pontificate and debate. None of this is
relevant to my original question. I'll try asking over on rivetbangers.
steve zicree wrote:
> Barry,
>
> During combustion, some gasses slip right past the rings into the
> crankcase. Water is one component of these. These blow-by gasses are
> precisely the reason we need some sort of crankcase ventilation. Once
> these gasses are pushed out of the case, I see no reason why they
> couldn't condense in lines or a separator.
>
> Regarding the mass thing, a gram of water is a gram of water,
> regardless of what state it's in. If you freeze a gram of water, you
> get a gram of ice. Likewise if you convert it to gas.
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barry AV8R
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
> Steve:
>
> How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
> crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
> crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
> process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
> Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the
> properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the
> same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of
> its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of
> material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational
> field.
> Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
> statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
> Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
> Barry
> steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however,
> water vapor
> is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
> the form
> of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
> Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the
> presure
> and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
> path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
> To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> Jon:
> I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
> disappear. It is an urban myth.
> Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
> chamber.
> While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a
> liquid state.
> It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
> oil has.
> Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if
> you want
> to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
> increases.
> 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING
> - from
> the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
> flow to
> the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State
> of the
> oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser
> NON-Vapor
> State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
> returned
> to the sump.
> Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front
> seal???? <-
> Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> How in the world is this going to happen?
> Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
> coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
> COOLING ...
> After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If
> it did
> not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
> engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be
> careful
> as you answer it!
> ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not
> develop.
> Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the
> order of
> physical acceptance.
> So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during
> flight
> ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
> temperature of
> 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
> reasons
> above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
> considered.
> If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not
> evaporate? (Lets
> use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a
> Dew Point
> of 70 Deg F.)
> SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
> designed
> to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you
> going to say
> CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the
> formula
> ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
> between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
> spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a
> factor]. 2>
> The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
> into the
> sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to
> read it
> and disperse this urban myth.
> I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the
> internet
> is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could
> not be as
> successful.
> Barry
> Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
> I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
> oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
> 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
> I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
> sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
> right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
> probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
> top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
> anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> space.
>
> By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
> Jon.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Scott:
> >
> > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> and
> > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
> ever you can into the area available.
> > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
> $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> >
> > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> with
> > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> the
> > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> Any
> > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
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> vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> ---------------------------------
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> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
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Author: "steve zicree" <szicree@...> Time: Sat Dec 4, 2004 1:57 pm PST Link
Scott,
On a related note, I also am building a 4 and am wondering about the necessity of a separator. Is the mess produced without one real bad? Can't I just route the breather into the exhaust outlet and burn the mess up on the way out? I know I'll use more oil this way, but I also spare my engine all that crud going back in, don't I?
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott VanArtsdalen
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
This is exactly why these lists are becoming so useless. You ivory
tower types just want to pontificate and debate. None of this is
relevant to my original question. I'll try asking over on rivetbangers.
steve zicree wrote:
> Barry,
>
> During combustion, some gasses slip right past the rings into the
> crankcase. Water is one component of these. These blow-by gasses are
> precisely the reason we need some sort of crankcase ventilation. Once
> these gasses are pushed out of the case, I see no reason why they
> couldn't condense in lines or a separator.
>
> Regarding the mass thing, a gram of water is a gram of water,
> regardless of what state it's in. If you freeze a gram of water, you
> get a gram of ice. Likewise if you convert it to gas.
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barry AV8R
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
> Steve:
>
> How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
> crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
> crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
> process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
> Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the
> properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the
> same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of
> its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of
> material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational
> field.
> Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
> statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
> Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
> Barry
> steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however,
> water vapor
> is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
> the form
> of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
> Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the
> presure
> and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
> path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
> To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> Jon:
> I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
> disappear. It is an urban myth.
> Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
> chamber.
> While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a
> liquid state.
> It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
> oil has.
> Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if
> you want
> to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
> increases.
> 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING
> - from
> the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
> flow to
> the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State
> of the
> oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser
> NON-Vapor
> State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
> returned
> to the sump.
> Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front
> seal???? <-
> Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> How in the world is this going to happen?
> Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
> coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
> COOLING ...
> After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If
> it did
> not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
> engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be
> careful
> as you answer it!
> ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not
> develop.
> Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the
> order of
> physical acceptance.
> So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during
> flight
> ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
> temperature of
> 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
> reasons
> above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
> considered.
> If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not
> evaporate? (Lets
> use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a
> Dew Point
> of 70 Deg F.)
> SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
> designed
> to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you
> going to say
> CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the
> formula
> ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
> between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
> spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a
> factor]. 2>
> The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
> into the
> sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to
> read it
> and disperse this urban myth.
> I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the
> internet
> is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could
> not be as
> successful.
> Barry
> Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
> I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
> oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
> 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
> I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
> sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
> right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
> probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
> top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
> anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> space.
>
> By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
> Jon.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Scott:
> >
> > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> and
> > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
> ever you can into the area available.
> > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
> $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> >
> > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> with
> > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> the
> > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> Any
> > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
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--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
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Author: "steve zicree" <szicree@...> Time: Sat Dec 4, 2004 1:58 pm PST Link
Hi Scott,
If you saw my crappy little office you'd take back that ivory tower remark. You're right though about the useless debate b.s. The only point I intended to make was that freezing water in a separator seemed possible and could cause BIG trouble. That's why I asked if anyone had first hand experience with it. Like I said though, your point is well taken.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott VanArtsdalen
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
This is exactly why these lists are becoming so useless. You ivory
tower types just want to pontificate and debate. None of this is
relevant to my original question. I'll try asking over on rivetbangers.
steve zicree wrote:
> Barry,
>
> During combustion, some gasses slip right past the rings into the
> crankcase. Water is one component of these. These blow-by gasses are
> precisely the reason we need some sort of crankcase ventilation. Once
> these gasses are pushed out of the case, I see no reason why they
> couldn't condense in lines or a separator.
>
> Regarding the mass thing, a gram of water is a gram of water,
> regardless of what state it's in. If you freeze a gram of water, you
> get a gram of ice. Likewise if you convert it to gas.
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barry AV8R
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
> Steve:
>
> How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
> crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
> crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
> process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
> Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the
> properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the
> same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of
> its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of
> material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational
> field.
> Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
> statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
> Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
> Barry
> steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however,
> water vapor
> is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
> the form
> of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
> Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the
> presure
> and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
> path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
> To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> Jon:
> I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
> disappear. It is an urban myth.
> Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
> chamber.
> While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a
> liquid state.
> It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
> oil has.
> Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if
> you want
> to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
> increases.
> 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING
> - from
> the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
> flow to
> the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State
> of the
> oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser
> NON-Vapor
> State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
> returned
> to the sump.
> Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front
> seal???? <-
> Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> How in the world is this going to happen?
> Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
> coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
> COOLING ...
> After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If
> it did
> not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
> engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be
> careful
> as you answer it!
> ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not
> develop.
> Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the
> order of
> physical acceptance.
> So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during
> flight
> ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
> temperature of
> 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
> reasons
> above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
> considered.
> If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not
> evaporate? (Lets
> use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a
> Dew Point
> of 70 Deg F.)
> SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
> designed
> to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you
> going to say
> CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the
> formula
> ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
> between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
> spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a
> factor]. 2>
> The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
> into the
> sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to
> read it
> and disperse this urban myth.
> I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the
> internet
> is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could
> not be as
> successful.
> Barry
> Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
> I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
> oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
> 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
> I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
> sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
> right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
> probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
> top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
> anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> space.
>
> By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
> Jon.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Scott:
> >
> > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> and
> > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
> ever you can into the area available.
> > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
> $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> >
> > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> with
> > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> the
> > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> Any
> > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
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> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Online help on this group at:
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Author: "Richard & Roberta Hegy" <rhegy@...> Time: Sat Dec 4, 2004 1:59 pm PST Link
I agree!!!! I use the delete a lot when I see this bantering of BS.
Roberta
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott VanArtsdalen
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
This is exactly why these lists are becoming so useless. You ivory
tower types just want to pontificate and debate. None of this is
relevant to my original question. I'll try asking over on rivetbangers.
steve zicree wrote:
> Barry,
>
> During combustion, some gasses slip right past the rings into the
> crankcase. Water is one component of these. These blow-by gasses are
> precisely the reason we need some sort of crankcase ventilation. Once
> these gasses are pushed out of the case, I see no reason why they
> couldn't condense in lines or a separator.
>
> Regarding the mass thing, a gram of water is a gram of water,
> regardless of what state it's in. If you freeze a gram of water, you
> get a gram of ice. Likewise if you convert it to gas.
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barry AV8R
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
> Steve:
>
> How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
> crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
> crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
> process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
> Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the
> properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the
> same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of
> its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of
> material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational
> field.
> Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
> statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
> Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
> Barry
> steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however,
> water vapor
> is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
> the form
> of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
> Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the
> presure
> and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
> path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
> To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> Jon:
> I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
> disappear. It is an urban myth.
> Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
> chamber.
> While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a
> liquid state.
> It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
> oil has.
> Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if
> you want
> to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
> increases.
> 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING
> - from
> the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
> flow to
> the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State
> of the
> oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser
> NON-Vapor
> State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
> returned
> to the sump.
> Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front
> seal???? <-
> Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> How in the world is this going to happen?
> Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
> coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
> COOLING ...
> After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If
> it did
> not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
> engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be
> careful
> as you answer it!
> ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not
> develop.
> Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the
> order of
> physical acceptance.
> So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during
> flight
> ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
> temperature of
> 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
> reasons
> above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
> considered.
> If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not
> evaporate? (Lets
> use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a
> Dew Point
> of 70 Deg F.)
> SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
> designed
> to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you
> going to say
> CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the
> formula
> ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
> between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
> spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a
> factor]. 2>
> The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
> into the
> sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to
> read it
> and disperse this urban myth.
> I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the
> internet
> is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could
> not be as
> successful.
> Barry
> Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
> I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
> oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
> 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
> I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
> sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
> right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
> probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
> top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
> anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> space.
>
> By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
> Jon.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Scott:
> >
> > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> and
> > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
> ever you can into the area available.
> > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
> $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> >
> > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> with
> > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> the
> > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> Any
> > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
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Author: "Jim Wright" <akflier@...> Time: Sat Dec 4, 2004 5:24 pm PST Link
It is of concern during the winter months in Alaska. Probably all of our aircraft have a little notch cut in the crankcase vent line about 8 to 12 inches above the outlet. This allows an alternate escape of the breather substances (Water vapor) from freezing in the end of the breather tube... and doing exactly what Michael describes
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Barry,
You are missing something critical to the equation. The water vapor
is continually being added to the crankcase due to combustion gas
blowby. A large component of the combustion gasses is water. About
10 pounds are created for every gallon of gasoline burned.
When you first start your engine the cold oil condenses most of the
blowby water to liquid but as you operate and the oil gets warm, it
evaporates as you said. This cold operation condensation is one
reason IC engines wear out so rapidly in short duty cycle operations.
I think the concern that the water vapor that is continually being
added to the crankcase might freeze in the oil-air separator is valid
if that device is in a cold enough air stream. If that were to
happen then it is conceivable that the crankcase would overpressurize
and blow a seal. Granted the scenario requires the water to freeze
in the separator and I have no opinion on that. If it is urban
legend, then the oil separator must not be able to freeze, otherwise
everything else is in place.
Also,
If I have a cup of water it will have some known mass. If I boil the
water to a vapor, it will still have the same mass but more volume.
If I freeze it it will still have the same mass. Perhaps this was
what Steve was meaning.
-mike
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
>
> Steve:
>
> How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
> Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the
properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the
same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of
its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of
material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational
field.
> Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
> Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
> Barry
> steve zicree <szicree@a...> wrote:
>
> Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however,
water vapor
> is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
the form
> of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the
separator?
> Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the
presure
> and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the
return
> path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@y...>
> To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> Jon:
> I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see
it
> disappear. It is an urban myth.
> Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
chamber.
> While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a
liquid state.
> It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
oil has.
> Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if
you want
> to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as
altitude
> increases.
> 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After
COOLING - from
> the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
flow to
> the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor
State of the
> oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser
NON-Vapor
> State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
returned
> to the sump.
> Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front
seal???? <-
> Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> How in the world is this going to happen?
> Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The
water is
> coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
COOLING ...
> After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If
it did
> not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of
our
> engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be
careful
> as you answer it!
> ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not
develop.
> Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the
order of
> physical acceptance.
> So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during
flight
> ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
temperature of
> 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
reasons
> above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
considered.
> If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not
evaporate? (Lets
> use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a
Dew Point
> of 70 Deg F.)
> SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
designed
> to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you
going to say
> CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into
the formula
> ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air
space
> between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two
air
> spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a
factor]. 2>
> The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
into the
> sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to
read it
> and disperse this urban myth.
> I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the
internet
> is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could
not be as
> successful.
> Barry
> Jon Baker <jon@s...> wrote:
> I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean.
But
> oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
> 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
> I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that
Van's
> sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil
blows
> right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor,
it's
> probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm
on
> top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper
than
> anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> space.
>
> By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
> Jon.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > Scott:
> >
> > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> and
> > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in
what
> ever you can into the area available.
> > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for
about
> $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap
aluminum.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> >
> > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> with
> > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> the
> > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> Any
> > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> ---------------------------------
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> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: Bob and Nancy Dougherty <flyer@...> Time: Sat Dec 4, 2004 5:25 pm PST Link
Dont need no stinkin physics book,were building airplanes . The water
comes from the combustion process and the vent line can freeze over and
the positive cc pressure can blow out the front seal.Go back to
riveting. BobD
Barry AV8R wrote:
>Steve:
>
>How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
>Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational field.
>Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
>Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
>Barry
>steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however, water vapor
>is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in the form
>of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
>Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the presure
>and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
>path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
>Steve Zicree
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
>To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
>Jon:
>I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
>disappear. It is an urban myth.
>Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
>There are laws of physics present in this operation:
>1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the chamber.
>While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a liquid state.
>It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the oil has.
>Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if you want
>to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
>increases.
>2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
>The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
>temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING - from
>the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return flow to
>the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State of the
>oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
>3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
>Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser NON-Vapor
>State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and returned
>to the sump.
>Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front seal???? <-
>Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
>How in the world is this going to happen?
>Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
>coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is COOLING ...
>After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
>Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
>displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If it did
>not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
>engine AND oil could not do its duty.
>QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be careful
>as you answer it!
>ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not develop.
>Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
>PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the order of
>physical acceptance.
>So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during flight
>... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
>debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil temperature of
>140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the reasons
>above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be considered.
>If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not evaporate? (Lets
>use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a Dew Point
>of 70 Deg F.)
>SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is designed
>to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you going to say
>CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the formula
>... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
>between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
>spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a factor]. 2>
>The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall into the
>sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
>So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to read it
>and disperse this urban myth.
>I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the internet
>is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could not be as
>successful.
>Barry
>Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
>I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
>oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
>1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
>2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
>crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
>I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
>sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
>less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
>right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
>probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
>top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
>anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
>space.
>
>By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
>me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
>separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
>Jon.
>--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
>>Scott:
>>
>>This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
>happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
>>1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
>and
>>2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
>>From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
>ever you can into the area available.
>>Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
>helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
>>As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
>$20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
>>Barry
>>
>>Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
>>
>>As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
>with
>>it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
>the
>>firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
>Any
>>suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>--
>>Scott VanArtsdalen
>>Van Arts Consulting Services
>>3848 McHenry Ave
>>Suite #155-184
>>Modesto, CA 95356
>>209-986-4647
>>Ps 34:4,6
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: "Michael" <michael@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 5:02 am PST Link
I apologize to the group for taking up the bandwidth responding to
irrelevant statements. I am sure that all who are concerned are
capable of picking out truth without my help.
To paraphrase a quote that hits me where I live:
"There is no stronger drive in the human species than to correct
someone else's errors"
I'll sit on my thumbs from now on and try to contribute only when it
is worthwhile.
Starting my riveting again... Thanks Bob! :)
-mike
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Bob and Nancy Dougherty
<flyer@x> wrote:
>
> Dont need no stinkin physics book,were building airplanes . The
water
> comes from the combustion process and the vent line can freeze over
and
> the positive cc pressure can blow out the front seal.Go back to
> riveting. BobD
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Author: "Richard & Roberta Hegy" <rhegy@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 5:02 am PST Link
I had a front crank seal blow out in my Cherokee due to freezing up of the vent tube. It had the "blow cock" notch in it, yet it still froze above it. I know for sure it was iced up because the ice was still partially hanging off the end of the tube when we discovered the oil on the cowl, realized the seal was blown, and checked for freezing of the tube. It was a very hazey, humid January day in WI and the ground temps were around 0 deg. F. I added some insulation to the tube to help keep it warmer and watched the weather to avoid that condition.
I have the notch in my 7A and have the vent tube over the exhaust header, per Van's, to help avoid this.
Roberta
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Wright
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
It is of concern during the winter months in Alaska. Probably all of our aircraft have a little notch cut in the crankcase vent line about 8 to 12 inches above the outlet. This allows an alternate escape of the breather substances (Water vapor) from freezing in the end of the breather tube... and doing exactly what Michael describes
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Barry,
You are missing something critical to the equation. The water vapor
is continually being added to the crankcase due to combustion gas
blowby. A large component of the combustion gasses is water. About
10 pounds are created for every gallon of gasoline burned.
When you first start your engine the cold oil condenses most of the
blowby water to liquid but as you operate and the oil gets warm, it
evaporates as you said. This cold operation condensation is one
reason IC engines wear out so rapidly in short duty cycle operations.
I think the concern that the water vapor that is continually being
added to the crankcase might freeze in the oil-air separator is valid
if that device is in a cold enough air stream. If that were to
happen then it is conceivable that the crankcase would overpressurize
and blow a seal. Granted the scenario requires the water to freeze
in the separator and I have no opinion on that. If it is urban
legend, then the oil separator must not be able to freeze, otherwise
everything else is in place.
Also,
If I have a cup of water it will have some known mass. If I boil the
water to a vapor, it will still have the same mass but more volume.
If I freeze it it will still have the same mass. Perhaps this was
what Steve was meaning.
-mike
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
>
> Steve:
>
> How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
> Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the
properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the
same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of
its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of
material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational
field.
> Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
> Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
> Barry
> steve zicree <szicree@a...> wrote:
>
> Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however,
water vapor
> is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
the form
> of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the
separator?
> Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the
presure
> and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the
return
> path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@y...>
> To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> Jon:
> I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see
it
> disappear. It is an urban myth.
> Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
chamber.
> While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a
liquid state.
> It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
oil has.
> Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if
you want
> to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as
altitude
> increases.
> 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After
COOLING - from
> the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
flow to
> the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor
State of the
> oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser
NON-Vapor
> State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
returned
> to the sump.
> Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front
seal???? <-
> Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> How in the world is this going to happen?
> Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The
water is
> coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
COOLING ...
> After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If
it did
> not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of
our
> engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be
careful
> as you answer it!
> ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not
develop.
> Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the
order of
> physical acceptance.
> So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during
flight
> ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
temperature of
> 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
reasons
> above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
considered.
> If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not
evaporate? (Lets
> use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a
Dew Point
> of 70 Deg F.)
> SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
designed
> to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you
going to say
> CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into
the formula
> ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air
space
> between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two
air
> spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a
factor]. 2>
> The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
into the
> sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to
read it
> and disperse this urban myth.
> I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the
internet
> is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could
not be as
> successful.
> Barry
> Jon Baker <jon@s...> wrote:
> I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean.
But
> oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
> 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
> I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that
Van's
> sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil
blows
> right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor,
it's
> probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm
on
> top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper
than
> anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> space.
>
> By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
> Jon.
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > Scott:
> >
> > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> and
> > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in
what
> ever you can into the area available.
> > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for
about
> $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap
aluminum.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> >
> > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> with
> > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> the
> > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> Any
> > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > Suite #155-184
> > Modesto, CA 95356
> > 209-986-4647
> > Ps 34:4,6
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: linn walters <lwalters2@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 5:03 am PST Link
It just keeps going, and going, and going ......
steve zicree wrote:
>Scott,
>
>On a related note, I also am building a 4 and am wondering about the necessity of a separator.
>
Let's get down to basics. An engine with a tight top end and good rings
will have little or no blowby and hence no need for a separator. With
an old, worn-out engine, and worn out rings, a separator will prevent
most of the mess from getting on the belly. the separator doesn't fix
the problem, but does make it aesthetically pleasing and your local
hangar rats will take their friendly ribbing elsewhere ;-) .
> Is the mess produced without one real bad?
>
Only if you have the aforementioned tired engine ..... and yes, it can
get significant. You may want to look at the tired engine as a
corrosion fighter :-) .
> Can't I just route the breather into the exhaust outlet and burn the mess up on the way out?
>
This is a good question, and one I can't answer since I haven't done
it. I have read on these esteemed (useless?) lists that some have let
the 'reovered' slime to drip on a hot exhause where it turns to ash and
disappears. You can also just collect the recovered stuff in a glass
jar which you empty periodically. This will also allow you to get a
good look at what some folks are returning to their engine.
> I know I'll use more oil this way,
>
A rather insignificant amount. You won't miss it. If you put an
inverted oil system on your engine and really get wild with it .....
you'll dump more oil (again, not much) that blowby will ever produce!
> but I also spare my engine all that crud going back in, don't I?
>
Absolutely. I like to think of a separator as heavy makeup ..... just
covers up the real problem, and solves nothing.
Linn
>Steve
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Author: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 5:03 am PST Link
Thanks Steve, glad you understand and don't worry, you're in good
company with the crappy office thing. I'm VERY glad you didn't take
offense. But hey, I've seen you on the RV-List, you're pretty thick
skinned right? :-)
steve zicree wrote:
> Hi Scott,
>
> If you saw my crappy little office you'd take back that ivory tower
> remark. You're right though about the useless debate b.s. The only
> point I intended to make was that freezing water in a separator seemed
> possible and could cause BIG trouble. That's why I asked if anyone had
> first hand experience with it. Like I said though, your point is well
> taken.
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Scott VanArtsdalen
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 8:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
> This is exactly why these lists are becoming so useless. You ivory
> tower types just want to pontificate and debate. None of this is
> relevant to my original question. I'll try asking over on rivetbangers.
>
> steve zicree wrote:
> > Barry,
> >
> > During combustion, some gasses slip right past the rings into the
> > crankcase. Water is one component of these. These blow-by gasses are
> > precisely the reason we need some sort of crankcase ventilation. Once
> > these gasses are pushed out of the case, I see no reason why they
> > couldn't condense in lines or a separator.
> >
> > Regarding the mass thing, a gram of water is a gram of water,
> > regardless of what state it's in. If you freeze a gram of water, you
> > get a gram of ice. Likewise if you convert it to gas.
> >
> > Steve Zicree
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Barry AV8R
> > To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
> > Steve:
> >
> > How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
> > crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
> > crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
> > process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
> >
> > Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the
> > properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the
> > same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of
> > its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of
> > material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational
> > field.
> > Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
> > statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
> >
> > Dang, where did I put my physics book?
> >
> > Barry
> > steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however,
> > water vapor
> > is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
> > the form
> > of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the
> separator?
> > Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the
> > presure
> > and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the
> return
> > path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
> >
> > Steve Zicree
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
> > To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> > Jon:
> > I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to
> see it
> > disappear. It is an urban myth.
> > Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> > There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> > 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
> > chamber.
> > While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a
> > liquid state.
> > It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
> > oil has.
> > Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if
> > you want
> > to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as
> altitude
> > increases.
> > 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> > The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> > temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After
> COOLING
> > - from
> > the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
> > flow to
> > the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor
> State
> > of the
> > oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> > 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> > Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser
> > NON-Vapor
> > State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
> > returned
> > to the sump.
> > Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front
> > seal???? <-
> > Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> > How in the world is this going to happen?
> > Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The
> water is
> > coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
> > COOLING ...
> > After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> > Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> > displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If
> > it did
> > not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside
> of our
> > engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> > QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be
> > careful
> > as you answer it!
> > ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not
> > develop.
> > Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> > PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the
> > order of
> > physical acceptance.
> > So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during
> > flight
> > ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> > debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
> > temperature of
> > 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
> > reasons
> > above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
> > considered.
> > If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not
> > evaporate? (Lets
> > use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a
> > Dew Point
> > of 70 Deg F.)
> > SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
> > designed
> > to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you
> > going to say
> > CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into
> the
> > formula
> > ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an
> air space
> > between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are
> two air
> > spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a
> > factor]. 2>
> > The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
> > into the
> > sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> > So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to
> > read it
> > and disperse this urban myth.
> > I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the
> > internet
> > is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could
> > not be as
> > successful.
> > Barry
> > Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
> > I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly
> clean. But
> > oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
> >
> > 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> > 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> > crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
> >
> > I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that
> Van's
> > sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> > less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil
> blows
> > right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor,
> it's
> > probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and
> warm on
> > top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper
> than
> > anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> > space.
> >
> > By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> > me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> > separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
> >
> > Jon.
> > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Scott:
> > >
> > > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> > happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> > and
> > > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in
> what
> > ever you can into the area available.
> > > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> > helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for
> about
> > $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap
> aluminum.
> > >
> > > Barry
> > >
> > > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> > with
> > > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> > the
> > > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> > Any
> > > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > > Suite #155-184
> > > Modesto, CA 95356
> > > 209-986-4647
> > > Ps 34:4,6
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> Van Arts Consulting Services
> 3848 McHenry Ave
> Suite #155-184
> Modesto, CA 95356
> 209-986-4647
> Ps 34:4,6
> Online help on this group at:
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Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
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Author: "steve zicree" <szicree@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 5:03 am PST Link
Funny how everybody always refers to the thousands of rivets that we all set. I would say that for me actual rivet setting has been the smallest component of the project, time-wise. I spend way more time laying out holes, deburring edges, etching, priming, etc. Oh, and remaking parts that I accidently turn into scrap aluminum : )
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob and Nancy Dougherty
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Dont need no stinkin physics book,were building airplanes . The water
comes from the combustion process and the vent line can freeze over and
the positive cc pressure can blow out the front seal.Go back to
riveting. BobD
Barry AV8R wrote:
>Steve:
>
>How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
>Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational field.
>Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
>Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
>Barry
>steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however, water vapor
>is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in the form
>of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
>Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the presure
>and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
>path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
>Steve Zicree
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
>To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
>Jon:
>I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
>disappear. It is an urban myth.
>Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
>There are laws of physics present in this operation:
>1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the chamber.
>While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a liquid state.
>It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the oil has.
>Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if you want
>to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
>increases.
>2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
>The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
>temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING - from
>the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return flow to
>the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State of the
>oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
>3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
>Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser NON-Vapor
>State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and returned
>to the sump.
>Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front seal???? <-
>Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
>How in the world is this going to happen?
>Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
>coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is COOLING ...
>After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
>Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
>displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If it did
>not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
>engine AND oil could not do its duty.
>QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be careful
>as you answer it!
>ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not develop.
>Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
>PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the order of
>physical acceptance.
>So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during flight
>... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
>debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil temperature of
>140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the reasons
>above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be considered.
>If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not evaporate? (Lets
>use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a Dew Point
>of 70 Deg F.)
>SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is designed
>to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you going to say
>CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the formula
>... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
>between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
>spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a factor]. 2>
>The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall into the
>sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
>So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to read it
>and disperse this urban myth.
>I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the internet
>is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could not be as
>successful.
>Barry
>Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
>I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
>oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
>1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
>2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
>crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
>I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
>sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
>less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
>right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
>probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
>top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
>anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
>space.
>
>By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
>me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
>separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
>Jon.
>--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
>>Scott:
>>
>>This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
>happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
>>1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
>and
>>2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
>>From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
>ever you can into the area available.
>>Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
>helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
>>As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
>$20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
>>Barry
>>
>>Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
>>
>>As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
>with
>>it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
>the
>>firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
>Any
>>suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>--
>>Scott VanArtsdalen
>>Van Arts Consulting Services
>>3848 McHenry Ave
>>Suite #155-184
>>Modesto, CA 95356
>>209-986-4647
>>Ps 34:4,6
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: linn walters <lwalters2@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 5:03 am PST Link
Bob and Nancy Dougherty wrote:
>Dont need no stinkin physics book,were building airplanes . The water
>comes from the combustion process and the vent line can freeze over and
>the positive cc pressure can blow out the front seal.Go back to
>riveting. BobD
>
Short, sweet, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Amen. Good
stuff in this one.
Linn
Oh, and well said too. :-)
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Author: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 5:04 am PST Link
Man I just don't know. I'm a computer geek, not an engine guru.
However, I can tell you what my experience has been. My breather tube
drops straight down on my exhaust but I think it is too far into the
engine compartment. IE. the blowby has about a 4 inch drop to the pipes
and about 8 inches from the end of the pipes. Right now I do have a
pretty good mess on the right side of the belly most forward of the
spar. It's also fairly dry, not oily. What I plan to do at my next
annual is to mount the separator Van's sells (the Slime Fighter) and
re-do the breather tube to exit a little closer to the end of the
exhaust pipes. Hopefully you'll be better at firewall space planning
than I was. There is very little room for one of those large separators
under my cowling.
steve zicree wrote:
> Scott,
>
> On a related note, I also am building a 4 and am wondering about the
> necessity of a separator. Is the mess produced without one real bad?
> Can't I just route the breather into the exhaust outlet and burn the
> mess up on the way out? I know I'll use more oil this way, but I also
> spare my engine all that crud going back in, don't I?
>
> Steve
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Scott VanArtsdalen
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 8:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
> This is exactly why these lists are becoming so useless. You ivory
> tower types just want to pontificate and debate. None of this is
> relevant to my original question. I'll try asking over on rivetbangers.
>
> steve zicree wrote:
> > Barry,
> >
> > During combustion, some gasses slip right past the rings into the
> > crankcase. Water is one component of these. These blow-by gasses are
> > precisely the reason we need some sort of crankcase ventilation. Once
> > these gasses are pushed out of the case, I see no reason why they
> > couldn't condense in lines or a separator.
> >
> > Regarding the mass thing, a gram of water is a gram of water,
> > regardless of what state it's in. If you freeze a gram of water, you
> > get a gram of ice. Likewise if you convert it to gas.
> >
> > Steve Zicree
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Barry AV8R
> > To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 7:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
> > Steve:
> >
> > How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the
> > crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the
> > crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The
> > process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
> >
> > Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the
> > properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the
> > same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of
> > its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of
> > material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational
> > field.
> > Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your
> > statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
> >
> > Dang, where did I put my physics book?
> >
> > Barry
> > steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however,
> > water vapor
> > is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in
> > the form
> > of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the
> separator?
> > Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the
> > presure
> > and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the
> return
> > path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
> >
> > Steve Zicree
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
> > To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
> > Jon:
> > I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to
> see it
> > disappear. It is an urban myth.
> > Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
> > There are laws of physics present in this operation:
> > 1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the
> > chamber.
> > While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a
> > liquid state.
> > It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the
> > oil has.
> > Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if
> > you want
> > to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as
> altitude
> > increases.
> > 2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
> > The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
> > temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After
> COOLING
> > - from
> > the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return
> > flow to
> > the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor
> State
> > of the
> > oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
> > 3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
> > Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser
> > NON-Vapor
> > State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and
> > returned
> > to the sump.
> > Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front
> > seal???? <-
> > Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
> > How in the world is this going to happen?
> > Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The
> water is
> > coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is
> > COOLING ...
> > After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
> > Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
> > displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If
> > it did
> > not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside
> of our
> > engine AND oil could not do its duty.
> > QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be
> > careful
> > as you answer it!
> > ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not
> > develop.
> > Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
> > PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the
> > order of
> > physical acceptance.
> > So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during
> > flight
> > ... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
> > debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil
> > temperature of
> > 140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the
> > reasons
> > above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be
> > considered.
> > If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not
> > evaporate? (Lets
> > use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a
> > Dew Point
> > of 70 Deg F.)
> > SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is
> > designed
> > to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you
> > going to say
> > CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into
> the
> > formula
> > ... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an
> air space
> > between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are
> two air
> > spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a
> > factor]. 2>
> > The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall
> > into the
> > sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
> > So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to
> > read it
> > and disperse this urban myth.
> > I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the
> > internet
> > is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could
> > not be as
> > successful.
> > Barry
> > Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
> > I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly
> clean. But
> > oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
> >
> > 1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
> > 2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
> > crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
> >
> > I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that
> Van's
> > sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
> > less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil
> blows
> > right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor,
> it's
> > probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and
> warm on
> > top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper
> than
> > anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
> > space.
> >
> > By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
> > me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
> > separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
> >
> > Jon.
> > --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Scott:
> > >
> > > This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
> > happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
> > > 1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
> > and
> > > 2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
> > > From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in
> what
> > ever you can into the area available.
> > > Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
> > helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
> > > As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for
> about
> > $20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap
> aluminum.
> > >
> > > Barry
> > >
> > > Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
> > with
> > > it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
> > the
> > > firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
> > Any
> > > suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > --
> > > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > > Van Arts Consulting Services
> > > 3848 McHenry Ave
> > > Suite #155-184
> > > Modesto, CA 95356
> > > 209-986-4647
> > > Ps 34:4,6
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> Van Arts Consulting Services
> 3848 McHenry Ave
> Suite #155-184
> Modesto, CA 95356
> 209-986-4647
> Ps 34:4,6
> Online help on this group at:
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Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
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209-986-4647
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Author: "John Huft" <rv8@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 8:02 am PST Link
Throughout this thread, I haven't seen this approach mentioned. It is the 4 into 1 exhaust from Sky Dynamics. The breather is plumbed into the merge of the 4 pipes.
http://www.lazy8.net/fwf2.html
This would be real hard to freeze up. The oil gets burned pretty well by the exhaust gases. It also creates a slight vacuum in the crankcase to help the rings seal, and cut down on other oil leaks.
John Huft
RV8
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob and Nancy Dougherty
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Dont need no stinkin physics book,were building airplanes . The water
comes from the combustion process and the vent line can freeze over and
the positive cc pressure can blow out the front seal.Go back to
riveting. BobD
Barry AV8R wrote:
>Steve:
>
>How is water vapor being introduced into the crankcase, since the crank case is under pressure? That means a Positive pressure in the crankcase as compaired to the lower pressure outside the engine. The process of condensation takes place AFTER the engine is shut down.
>
>Also, my physics is a bit rusty. So please explain how the properties of Water Gas, Water Liquid and Water Solid all have the same Mass. Since Mass is the property of a body that is a measure of its inertia and that is commonly taken as a measure of the amount of material it contains and causes it to have weight in a gravitational field.
>Unless you are referring to Atomic Mass; then I can understand your statement. H2O is H2O in all three states of matter.
>
>Dang, where did I put my physics book?
>
>Barry
>steve zicree <szicree@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>Liquid water appears in the crancase from condensation; however, water vapor
>is being introduced into the crancase continuously during flight in the form
>of blowby gasses. Does this water vapor find it's way to the separator?
>Sure. Can it turn solid there? Don't know for sure. Depends on the presure
>and temp inside the separator. I'd mostly be concerned about the return
>path. Any first hand accounts of this type of freezing?
>
>Steve Zicree
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Barry AV8R" <aa5_av8r@yahoo.com>
>To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 1:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter
>Jon:
>I have seen this myth on a couple of sites and I would like to see it
>disappear. It is an urban myth.
>Your item #1 ... It returns water to the sump.
>There are laws of physics present in this operation:
>1 - Water is heavier than oil so it is thrown to the outside of the chamber.
>While this is a true physics statement - The water is NOT in a liquid state.
>It is in a VAPOR state and therefor does not have the mass that the oil has.
>Water does NOT have to boil to be in the Vapor State. AND even if you want
>to argue that point ... Water boils at a lower temperature as altitude
>increases.
>2 - Water boils at a lower temperature than oil.
>The temperature of 180 to 200 Deg F that is being reported by our
>temperature gage is a temperature TAKEN at the OUTPUT [After COOLING - from
>the oil cooler] and is not the temperature of the oil in the return flow to
>the sump. It is this higher temperature that causes the Vapor State of the
>oil/water that goes out our Breather Tube.
>3 - Water will vaporize before oil.
>Because it does, the water is emitted overboard while the denser NON-Vapor
>State oil is thrown to the outside by centrifugal force, cooled and returned
>to the sump.
>Your item #2 ... Freezing up the water and bursting the front seal???? <-
>Paraphrased see Jon's qoute
>How in the world is this going to happen?
>Let me back up and explain where the water is coming from. The water is
>coming from CONDENSATION. Condensation occurs as the engine is COOLING ...
>After shut-down ... NOT during flight.
>Oil coats ALL areas of our engine it come in contact with BECAUSE it
>displaces the water. Again this happens because of TEMPERTURE. If it did
>not do this we would have RUST and CORROSION all over the inside of our
>engine AND oil could not do its duty.
>QUESTION: What is the purpose of OIL? <-- Loaded question ... Be careful
>as you answer it!
>ANSWER: I will post the answer here and now just so myths do not develop.
>Three purposes of oil 1> REMOVE HEAT, 2> REDUCE FRICTION, and 3> A
>PROTECTIVE BARRIER AGAINST RUST & CORROSION. This is also in the order of
>physical acceptance.
>So realizing this the water that is in our sumps is removed during flight
>... How much flight is required to remove the water? Well, that is
>debatable ... Some where around 30 to 60 minutes with an oil temperature of
>140 to 200 Deg F. Boiling temperatures are NOT required as for the reasons
>above. And here is a simple test/reasoning that also should be considered.
>If you spill a glass of water on the sidewalk does it not evaporate? (Lets
>use a nice summer day with LOW temperatures of only 80 Deg F and a Dew Point
>of 70 Deg F.)
>SO! How is the water going to get into the front seal, since it is designed
>to keep OIL out? And where is this water coming from? Are you going to say
>CONDENSATION? Well, condensation requires one more factors into the formula
>... AIR SPACE. You cannot get condensation unless there is an air space
>between the heated surface and the cooling surface. There are two air
>spaces at the front seal 1> The outside of the engine [Not a factor]. 2>
>The inside of the engine [In this space the condensation would fall into the
>sump. NOT form between the oil & seal.]
>So I pray this long-winded response has the quantity of people to read it
>and disperse this urban myth.
>I guess "urban myth" is a way of putting it ... Unfortunately the internet
>is the worlds greatest spreader of manure. Too bad farmers could not be as
>successful.
>Barry
>Jon Baker <jon@shady-wood.com> wrote:
>I'd agree if your only consideration is keeping the belly clean. But
>oil separators have the potential for two serious problems:
>
>1 -- Returning water as well as oil to the sump.
>2 -- Freezing up and pressurizing the sump -- which can push out the
>crank seals and cause catastrophic oil loss.
>
>I don't have a "Slime Fighter", but I use one very similar that Van's
>sells. I love it because it just barely works. So long as I run
>less than 7 quarts, my belly stays clean. Any more and the oil blows
>right past it. I figure if it's just barely catching oil vapor, it's
>probably not catching much water. And since it sits nice and warm on
>top the engine, it's not likely to freeze. Plus, it was cheaper than
>anything I could have made and it doesn't require any firewall
>space.
>
>By the way, the idea of losing all my oil scares the besezzus out of
>me. So I leave the hose clamp off on the breather side of the
>separator, so it can blow the hose out instead of an oil seal.
>
>Jon.
>--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, Barry AV8R <aa5_av8r@y...> wrote:
>>Scott:
>>
>>This is one case where BIGGER is BETTER. You want two things to
>happen in the Oil - Air Separator.
>>1 - Centrifugal force to throw the oil to the outside of the unit,
>and
>>2 - Cooling/condensing of the oil vapor back into a liquid.
>>From this you can see that bigger would be better, but, fit in what
>ever you can into the area available.
>>Another little trick is to have cool air blow on the unit, this
>helps also. And don't forget to mount it as high as possible.
>>As for purchasing the unit ... I think you could make one for about
>$20 in material. Maybe even less if you can find some scrap aluminum.
>>Barry
>>
>>Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@y...> wrote:
>>
>>As far as air oil separators go how dows the Slime Fighter compare
>with
>>it's larger cousins? My RV-4 doesn't have all that much room on
>the
>>firewall and I'd like to install as small a separator as I can.
>Any
>>suggestions as to the best small form factor air oil separator?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>>--
>>Scott VanArtsdalen
>>Van Arts Consulting Services
>>3848 McHenry Ave
>>Suite #155-184
>>Modesto, CA 95356
>>209-986-4647
>>Ps 34:4,6
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Online help on this group at:
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Author: "Randy Lervold" <randy@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 9:08 am PST Link
John, I spottted your breather solution some time ago and thought it made sense, but was wondering how it actually worked. For example, do the fittings get so hot that it would plug up the hole from burnt oil (carbon)?.
How many hours do you have on it, and is it working well?
Randy Lervold
www.rv-3.com
www.rv-8.com
----- Original Message -----
From: John Huft
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Throughout this thread, I haven't seen this approach mentioned. It is the 4 into 1 exhaust from Sky Dynamics. The breather is plumbed into the merge of the 4 pipes.
http://www.lazy8.net/fwf2.html
This would be real hard to freeze up. The oil gets burned pretty well by the exhaust gases. It also creates a slight vacuum in the crankcase to help the rings seal, and cut down on other oil leaks.
John Huft
RV8
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob and Nancy Dougherty
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
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Author: "John Huft" <rv8@...> Time: Sun Dec 5, 2004 1:23 pm PST Link
Randy, I have 225 hours on it now. There is no sign of any more than a thin coating of carbon anywhere in the collector. It is not perfect about keeping the oil off the belly, but much better than my Cessna.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Lervold
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
John, I spottted your breather solution some time ago and thought it made sense, but was wondering how it actually worked. For example, do the fittings get so hot that it would plug up the hole from burnt oil (carbon)?.
How many hours do you have on it, and is it working well?
Randy Lervold
www.rv-3.com
www.rv-8.com
----- Original Message -----
From: John Huft
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Throughout this thread, I haven't seen this approach mentioned. It is the 4 into 1 exhaust from Sky Dynamics. The breather is plumbed into the merge of the 4 pipes.
http://www.lazy8.net/fwf2.html
This would be real hard to freeze up. The oil gets burned pretty well by the exhaust gases. It also creates a slight vacuum in the crankcase to help the rings seal, and cut down on other oil leaks.
John Huft
RV8
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob and Nancy Dougherty
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2004 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
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Author: jerry2dt@... Time: Mon Dec 6, 2004 12:52 pm PST Link
Hi John,
Do you know what the pressure differential is between the exhaust collector
and the crankcase? First glance it would seem the hot exhaust gas *could* have
a higher pressure. I like this solution a lot though if it works... I'm
wondering too about those pretty alum fittings, and the rubbery stuff inside the
hose unless it's teflon...
Jerry Cochran
From: John Huft
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Throughout this thread, I haven't seen this approach mentioned. It is the 4
into 1 exhaust from Sky Dynamics. The breather is plumbed into the merge of
the 4 pipes.
http://www.lazy8.net/fwf2.html
This would be real hard to freeze up. The oil gets burned pretty well by the
exhaust gases. It also creates a slight vacuum in the crankcase to help the
rings seal, and cut down on other oil leaks.
John Huft
RV8
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: "John Huft" <rv8@...> Time: Mon Dec 6, 2004 5:06 pm PST Link
Well, the idea is that the flow of the exhaust gases, and their expansion
into the megaphone, creates a negative pressure. Like blowing across the top
of a tube creates a slight vacuum. I have never tried to measure it. Someone
on one of these lists a while ago using this system said they forgot to
tighten the oil filler cap, and that the vacuum sucked several quarts of oil
out. So, maybe...
The hose and fittings don't show any sign of heat fatigue. The tube from the
merge to the fitting is 4 or 5 inches long. The hose I am using is just the
standard aeroquip 601, rated to 300F.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: jerry2dt@aol.com [mailto:jerry2dt@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 1:44 PM
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Re: Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Hi John,
Do you know what the pressure differential is between the exhaust
collector
and the crankcase? First glance it would seem the hot exhaust gas *could*
have
a higher pressure. I like this solution a lot though if it works... I'm
wondering too about those pretty alum fittings, and the rubbery stuff
inside the
hose unless it's teflon...
Jerry Cochran
From: John Huft
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Slime Fighter or Physics 101
Throughout this thread, I haven't seen this approach mentioned. It is the
4
into 1 exhaust from Sky Dynamics. The breather is plumbed into the merge
of
the 4 pipes.
http://www.lazy8.net/fwf2.html
This would be real hard to freeze up. The oil gets burned pretty well by
the
exhaust gases. It also creates a slight vacuum in the crankcase to help
the
rings seal, and cut down on other oil leaks.
John Huft
RV8
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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