Author: "tonypartain" <tpartain@...> Time: Mon Dec 6, 2004 11:35 am PST Link
What the difference? Which one has a better reputation? Which one has
fewer problems? TIA
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "ninerriveteer" <brywd@...> Time: Mon Dec 6, 2004 7:52 pm PST Link
TIA,
My father in law had a high end overhaul done on this Comanchee,
nothing to good for his baby. Balanced, Blueprinted, flow ported,
etc... He went with ECI for his cylinders because they were supposed
to be the greatest thing about six years ago.
After overhaul his cylinder head temps were 75-100 degrees higher
than he was used to and questioned it repeatedly. The engine builder
and ECI told him not to worry about it unless problems occurred.
This did not sit well with him and he pursued it for at least two
years.
Finally the engine builder agreed to try a fix that they had become
aware of for the cylinders which involved machining out material
between the cooling fins that were cast poorly and provided no
cooling. I believe that it was near the exhaust but am not sure.
This was the miracle that he had been waiting for and temps came down
to normal. The problem was the damage done to the jugs by running
them so hot for 2 years.
First came the high oil consumption and ECI still told him that the
oil the engine was using was not excessive and he would have to live
with it the way it was. He pointed out that his warrenty was going
to run out and his jugs were going to fail right away because the
trend was towards deterioration was evident. He told them literally
over and over that the poor casting had damaged the jugs and he
didn't believe they would make TBO.
At approx. 400 hours (approx. 4 yrs) the oil consumption was becoming
excessive and the metal started to appear. Now the jugs were out of
warrenty and according to ECI were his to enjoy. Finally after
becoming a thorn in their side they agreed to clean them up with a
fresh bore, valves, etc. if he had them removed and sent to Texas?
Yes ECI did finally fix his problem, but after years of running at
reduced power to avoid high temps, and extreme frustration on his
part.
When I had my engine built at Aero Sport I talked to Bart about this
problem and he stated that they machined the fins out on the ECI
cylinders before installing them, implying that the builders all new
of the problems. Since then they have replaced the cylinders with a
new product, but some of the decision makers are probably still at
ECI that put him through this torment.
I chose Superior because I just didn't want to relive his problems if
this is typical of their customer support and the way they back up
their products.
As for his airplane... He shares a hanger with a 3 year old C206
turbo that has always been hangered, and the Comanchee looks like the
new plane. Him and a friend with a Comanchee took 1st and 2nd for
their class at the last E.A.A. Northwest fly inn. Imagine what it
is like to spare no expense and have some nagging problem for years
after paying top dollar for a what you want. ECI made his passion a
headache for a long time.
Regards,
Bryan
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "tonypartain" <tpartain@b...>
wrote:
> What the difference? Which one has a better reputation? Which one
has
> fewer problems? TIA
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: linn walters <lwalters2@...> Time: Tue Dec 7, 2004 6:48 am PST Link
FWIW, Lycoming also has the problem with flashing between the fins.
These fins are the ones around the spark plug. Put a light below the
head and look down, Well, maybe you shouldn't. It's not a pretty
sight. Lycoming, like ECI, is in denial too.
Linn
ninerriveteer wrote:
>TIA,
>My father in law had a high end overhaul done on this Comanchee,
>nothing to good for his baby. Balanced, Blueprinted, flow ported,
>etc... He went with ECI for his cylinders because they were supposed
>to be the greatest thing about six years ago.
>
>After overhaul his cylinder head temps were 75-100 degrees higher
>than he was used to and questioned it repeatedly. The engine builder
>and ECI told him not to worry about it unless problems occurred.
>This did not sit well with him and he pursued it for at least two
>years.
>
>Finally the engine builder agreed to try a fix that they had become
>aware of for the cylinders which involved machining out material
>between the cooling fins that were cast poorly and provided no
>cooling. I believe that it was near the exhaust but am not sure.
>This was the miracle that he had been waiting for and temps came down
>to normal. The problem was the damage done to the jugs by running
>them so hot for 2 years.
>
>First came the high oil consumption and ECI still told him that the
>oil the engine was using was not excessive and he would have to live
>with it the way it was. He pointed out that his warrenty was going
>to run out and his jugs were going to fail right away because the
>trend was towards deterioration was evident. He told them literally
>over and over that the poor casting had damaged the jugs and he
>didn't believe they would make TBO.
>
>At approx. 400 hours (approx. 4 yrs) the oil consumption was becoming
>excessive and the metal started to appear. Now the jugs were out of
>warrenty and according to ECI were his to enjoy. Finally after
>becoming a thorn in their side they agreed to clean them up with a
>fresh bore, valves, etc. if he had them removed and sent to Texas?
>
>Yes ECI did finally fix his problem, but after years of running at
>reduced power to avoid high temps, and extreme frustration on his
>part.
>
>When I had my engine built at Aero Sport I talked to Bart about this
>problem and he stated that they machined the fins out on the ECI
>cylinders before installing them, implying that the builders all new
>of the problems. Since then they have replaced the cylinders with a
>new product, but some of the decision makers are probably still at
>ECI that put him through this torment.
>
>I chose Superior because I just didn't want to relive his problems if
>this is typical of their customer support and the way they back up
>their products.
>
>As for his airplane... He shares a hanger with a 3 year old C206
>turbo that has always been hangered, and the Comanchee looks like the
>new plane. Him and a friend with a Comanchee took 1st and 2nd for
>their class at the last E.A.A. Northwest fly inn. Imagine what it
>is like to spare no expense and have some nagging problem for years
>after paying top dollar for a what you want. ECI made his passion a
>headache for a long time.
>
>Regards,
>Bryan
>--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "tonypartain" <tpartain@b...>
>wrote:
>>What the difference? Which one has a better reputation? Which one
>has
>>fewer problems? TIA
>Online help on this group at:
>http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: jerry2dt@... Time: Wed Dec 8, 2004 11:25 am PST Link
FWIW, I just went to the garage, inspected my Superior XP-360 and absolutely
no problem. Fins are perfect, no flashing problems.
Jerry Cochran
From: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re: ECI vs Superior engine parts
FWIW, Lycoming also has the problem with flashing between the fins.
These fins are the ones around the spark plug. Put a light below the
head and look down, Well, maybe you shouldn't. It's not a pretty
sight. Lycoming, like ECI, is in denial too.
Linn
ninerriveteer wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "tonypartain" <tpartain@...> Time: Wed Dec 8, 2004 12:35 pm PST Link
There is a small premium for the Superior part over the ECI. So it
sounds like you get what you pay for....
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, jerry2dt@a... wrote:
> FWIW, I just went to the garage, inspected my Superior XP-360 and
absolutely
> no problem. Fins are perfect, no flashing problems.
>
> Jerry Cochran
>
> From: linn walters <lwalters2@c...>
> Subject: Re: Re: ECI vs Superior engine parts
> FWIW, Lycoming also has the problem with flashing between the
fins.
> These fins are the ones around the spark plug. Put a light below
the
> head and look down, Well, maybe you shouldn't. It's not a pretty
> sight. Lycoming, like ECI, is in denial too.
> Linn
> ninerriveteer wrote:
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Larry Bowen" <larry@...> Time: Wed Dec 8, 2004 12:35 pm PST Link
What does flashing look like?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
jerry2dt@aol.com said:
> FWIW, I just went to the garage, inspected my Superior XP-360 and
> absolutely
> no problem. Fins are perfect, no flashing problems.
>
> Jerry Cochran
>
> From: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: ECI vs Superior engine parts
> FWIW, Lycoming also has the problem with flashing between the fins.
> These fins are the ones around the spark plug. Put a light below the
> head and look down, Well, maybe you shouldn't. It's not a pretty
> sight. Lycoming, like ECI, is in denial too.
> Linn
> ninerriveteer wrote:
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)" <hugh@...> Time: Wed Dec 8, 2004 2:12 pm PST Link
I am a week away from ordering my engine. As you can imagine, this thread had me a little worried since the two front runners to get my business are using ECI parts. Both companies have a very good reputation in the RV community.
This is the response from I received when asked one of the companies about the flashing issue.
"I have looked and looked and looked at new cylinders, old cylinders and in
between cylinders. I have checked cylinder's from ECI, SAP and LYC. I have
yet to find any with this flashing.
Does or can this flashing make the cylinders run hot? As I can't find any
with it, I don't know for sure but I don't think so. I have partially
blocked the area in question and fully blocked the fins there, in the test
cell environment, on several engines with cylinders from all three
sources. The net effect in CHT readings at the normal locations of the CHT
probe hole and or the lower spark plug gasket boss was approximately 10
degrees with the fins 100% blocked and about half that with the fins
partially blocked. I don't think this is substantial but I don't honestly
know for sure that the results would be the same in the aircraft
environment but I think it would.
To answer you question about would we remove any flashing we saw anywhere
on a cylinder that shouldn't be there....Yes absolutely!"
This seems to be one of these things that start a life of their own. I am going ECI.
Hugh
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: linn walters <lwalters2@...> Time: Wed Dec 8, 2004 2:13 pm PST Link
Since Jerry didn't see any .........
It's thin metal bridging the fins 1/2 way down. It's caused by the
molds not meeting square and allowing some metal between the mold
seats. Happens when the heads are cast. New molds shouldn't have the
problem unless they're lousy molds. I wouldn't expect it from the newer
cylinder Mfgrs ..... but they're there. So, just check. Folks have
taken the round needle files and checked them in a drill to make it
easier ...... but I suspect they also break more files ;-) .
Linn
Larry Bowen wrote:
>What does flashing look like?
>
>-
>Larry Bowen
>Larry@BowenAero.com
>http://BowenAero.com
>
>jerry2dt@aol.com said:
>>FWIW, I just went to the garage, inspected my Superior XP-360 and
>>absolutely
>>no problem. Fins are perfect, no flashing problems.
>>
>>Jerry Cochran
>>
>>From: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>>Subject: Re: Re: ECI vs Superior engine parts
>>FWIW, Lycoming also has the problem with flashing between the fins.
>>These fins are the ones around the spark plug. Put a light below the
>>head and look down, Well, maybe you shouldn't. It's not a pretty
>>sight. Lycoming, like ECI, is in denial too.
>>Linn
>>ninerriveteer wrote:
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>Online help on this group at:
>>http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>>
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>Online help on this group at:
>http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "ninerriveteer" <brywd@...> Time: Wed Dec 8, 2004 8:26 pm PST Link
Hugh,
I wasn't trying to step on anybodys toes with my response. In hopes
of clarifying what I wrote I called my father in law a few minutes
ago and had him tell me the sequence of events he went through with
ECI.
He had ECI cylinders prior to the overhaul I wrote about. The rings
wore through the coating on the cylinder walls in very short time.
He couldn't remember if they were semi-chrome or channel chrome? It
was a long time ago. Regardless of coating they were ECI and made
metal. There was some kind of problem with the process during
manufacture and he didn't, and still doesn't have hard feeling with
ECI over this.
He went with ECI's again when he overhauled in 1999. At the time the
cylinders were called "Classic Cast" and had 7 cooling fins on the
head when Lycoming had 9. He was told that there would be no cooling
problems as a result of this which proved to be incorrect. The
flashing as everybody is calling it was on the heads, not near the
exhaust as I implied in my previous post. This did not look like
metal bridges between the fins as if cast poorly, it appeared as
machined channels in the heads and looked beautiful. The problem is
that they were not deep enough to provide cooling and overheated on
every climbout and in cruise at higher power settings. All of the
rest of the story was accurate as I wrote it. Since he purchased his
ECI Classics, ECI has quit offering them, and they have been replaced
by Titans. I have no idea if this is or is not related to the
problems I wrote about, or if ECI simply replaced it with a better
product, or possably one that is easier to produce.
As for his engine now? Everything is great. ECI got it right when
he shipped them out for rework. It is smooth, cht's in the 350
degree range, and you couldn't get him to give them up. Again, the
ECI is probably a fine product, but if you have an issue with them
beware! For the last 5 years a climb speed of less than 135mph
indicated resulted in temps rocketing to the red or close to it. Now
he can point it up and hold on without worrying about killing his
engine. This post was about customer service, not about ECI's being
a bad product. I'm sure that you will be happy with your engine and
will have no problems with your Titans. If you do hopefully your
engine builder will take care of you and not try to sluff you off to
the manufacturer of the components.
On another note,if one of the builders you are considering using is
Aero Sport Power I would give it a thumbs up. They have been
wonderful and have stood behind their product when I have called upon
them. When I have a question Bart is always patient and explains
clearly what I need to know. A very good company. My Aero Sport
engine is very smooth, has 73 hours on it now and I have not added
oil since the last oil change at 50 hours. It is down from the 8
quarts I started at to about 6 1/2 quarts showing on the dipstick.
Pretty normal for an a/c engine. Some I think is on the bottom of my
plane, and came from the breather tube.
Good luck,
Bryan
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)"
<hugh@b...> wrote:
>
> I am a week away from ordering my engine. As you can imagine, this
thread had me a little worried since the two front runners to get my
business are using ECI parts. Both companies have a very good
reputation in the RV community.
>
> This is the response from I received when asked one of the
companies about the flashing issue.
>
> "I have looked and looked and looked at new cylinders, old
cylinders and in
> between cylinders. I have checked cylinder's from ECI, SAP and LYC.
I have
> yet to find any with this flashing.
> Does or can this flashing make the cylinders run hot? As I can't
find any
> with it, I don't know for sure but I don't think so. I have
partially
> blocked the area in question and fully blocked the fins there, in
the test
> cell environment, on several engines with cylinders from all three
> sources. The net effect in CHT readings at the normal locations of
the CHT
> probe hole and or the lower spark plug gasket boss was
approximately 10
> degrees with the fins 100% blocked and about half that with the fins
> partially blocked. I don't think this is substantial but I don't
honestly
> know for sure that the results would be the same in the aircraft
> environment but I think it would.
> To answer you question about would we remove any flashing we saw
anywhere
> on a cylinder that shouldn't be there....Yes absolutely!"
> This seems to be one of these things that start a life of their
own. I am going ECI.
>
> Hugh
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: luckymacy@... Time: Thu Dec 9, 2004 3:31 am PST Link
Hugh,
Just curious. Who is the company that this past summer at SnF announced certification of an lycoming clone engine that could run on MoGas? Was that Mattituck? Did you give them a close look? I think if I was buying an engine again I'd take a look at that option and their prices seemed to be in line with everyone elses. Plus Mahlon from that company over on the lycoming email list would no doubt bend over backwards to help with answering questions.
Lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
> Hugh,
>
> I wasn't trying to step on anybodys toes with my response. In hopes
> of clarifying what I wrote I called my father in law a few minutes
> ago and had him tell me the sequence of events he went through with
> ECI.
>
> He had ECI cylinders prior to the overhaul I wrote about. The rings
> wore through the coating on the cylinder walls in very short time.
> He couldn't remember if they were semi-chrome or channel chrome? It
> was a long time ago. Regardless of coating they were ECI and made
> metal. There was some kind of problem with the process during
> manufacture and he didn't, and still doesn't have hard feeling with
> ECI over this.
>
> He went with ECI's again when he overhauled in 1999. At the time the
> cylinders were called "Classic Cast" and had 7 cooling fins on the
> head when Lycoming had 9. He was told that there would be no cooling
> problems as a result of this which proved to be incorrect. The
> flashing as everybody is calling it was on the heads, not near the
> exhaust as I implied in my previous post. This did not look like
> metal bridges between the fins as if cast poorly, it appeared as
> machined channels in the heads and looked beautiful. The problem is
> that they were not deep enough to provide cooling and overheated on
> every climbout and in cruise at higher power settings. All of the
> rest of the story was accurate as I wrote it. Since he purchased his
> ECI Classics, ECI has quit offering them, and they have been replaced
> by Titans. I have no idea if this is or is not related to the
> problems I wrote about, or if ECI simply replaced it with a better
> product, or possably one that is easier to produce.
>
> As for his engine now? Everything is great. ECI got it right when
> he shipped them out for rework. It is smooth, cht's in the 350
> degree range, and you couldn't get him to give them up. Again, the
> ECI is probably a fine product, but if you have an issue with them
> beware! For the last 5 years a climb speed of less than 135mph
> indicated resulted in temps rocketing to the red or close to it. Now
> he can point it up and hold on without worrying about killing his
> engine. This post was about customer service, not about ECI's being
> a bad product. I'm sure that you will be happy with your engine and
> will have no problems with your Titans. If you do hopefully your
> engine builder will take care of you and not try to sluff you off to
> the manufacturer of the components.
>
> On another note,if one of the builders you are considering using is
> Aero Sport Power I would give it a thumbs up. They have been
> wonderful and have stood behind their product when I have called upon
> them. When I have a question Bart is always patient and explains
> clearly what I need to know. A very good company. My Aero Sport
> engine is very smooth, has 73 hours on it now and I have not added
> oil since the last oil change at 50 hours. It is down from the 8
> quarts I started at to about 6 1/2 quarts showing on the dipstick.
> Pretty normal for an a/c engine. Some I think is on the bottom of my
> plane, and came from the breather tube.
>
> Good luck,
> Bryan
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)"
> wrote:
> >
> > I am a week away from ordering my engine. As you can imagine, this
> thread had me a little worried since the two front runners to get my
> business are using ECI parts. Both companies have a very good
> reputation in the RV community.
> >
> > This is the response from I received when asked one of the
> companies about the flashing issue.
> >
> > "I have looked and looked and looked at new cylinders, old
> cylinders and in
> > between cylinders. I have checked cylinder's from ECI, SAP and LYC.
> I have
> > yet to find any with this flashing.
> > Does or can this flashing make the cylinders run hot? As I can't
> find any
> > with it, I don't know for sure but I don't think so. I have
> partially
> > blocked the area in question and fully blocked the fins there, in
> the test
> > cell environment, on several engines with cylinders from all three
> > sources. The net effect in CHT readings at the normal locations of
> the CHT
> > probe hole and or the lower spark plug gasket boss was
> approximately 10
> > degrees with the fins 100% blocked and about half that with the fins
> > partially blocked. I don't think this is substantial but I don't
> honestly
> > know for sure that the results would be the same in the aircraft
> > environment but I think it would.
> > To answer you question about would we remove any flashing we saw
> anywhere
> > on a cylinder that shouldn't be there....Yes absolutely!"
> > This seems to be one of these things that start a life of their
> own. I am going ECI.
> >
> > Hugh
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)" <hugh@...> Time: Thu Dec 9, 2004 9:45 am PST Link
Bryan,
If I came across like my toes were stepped on, it certainly was unintentional. I was attempting to report my findings, not draw a line in the sand. Email has a way on doing that. No worries on my end.
Lucky, I want to say that the certified mogas engine is from Superior but I am not positive. I will give that engine a look but I had just assumed anything certified would be quite a bit more pricey.
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: luckymacy@comcast.net [mailto:luckymacy@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:41 AM
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Re:ECI vs Superior engine parts
Hugh,
Just curious. Who is the company that this past summer at SnF announced certification of an lycoming clone engine that could run on MoGas? Was that Mattituck? Did you give them a close look? I think if I was buying an engine again I'd take a look at that option and their prices seemed to be in line with everyone elses. Plus Mahlon from that company over on the lycoming email list would no doubt bend over backwards to help with answering questions.
Lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
> Hugh,
>
> I wasn't trying to step on anybodys toes with my response. In hopes
> of clarifying what I wrote I called my father in law a few minutes
> ago and had him tell me the sequence of events he went through with
> ECI.
>
> He had ECI cylinders prior to the overhaul I wrote about. The rings
> wore through the coating on the cylinder walls in very short time.
> He couldn't remember if they were semi-chrome or channel chrome? It
> was a long time ago. Regardless of coating they were ECI and made
> metal. There was some kind of problem with the process during
> manufacture and he didn't, and still doesn't have hard feeling with
> ECI over this.
>
> He went with ECI's again when he overhauled in 1999. At the time the
> cylinders were called "Classic Cast" and had 7 cooling fins on the
> head when Lycoming had 9. He was told that there would be no cooling
> problems as a result of this which proved to be incorrect. The
> flashing as everybody is calling it was on the heads, not near the
> exhaust as I implied in my previous post. This did not look like
> metal bridges between the fins as if cast poorly, it appeared as
> machined channels in the heads and looked beautiful. The problem is
> that they were not deep enough to provide cooling and overheated on
> every climbout and in cruise at higher power settings. All of the
> rest of the story was accurate as I wrote it. Since he purchased his
> ECI Classics, ECI has quit offering them, and they have been replaced
> by Titans. I have no idea if this is or is not related to the
> problems I wrote about, or if ECI simply replaced it with a better
> product, or possably one that is easier to produce.
>
> As for his engine now? Everything is great. ECI got it right when
> he shipped them out for rework. It is smooth, cht's in the 350
> degree range, and you couldn't get him to give them up. Again, the
> ECI is probably a fine product, but if you have an issue with them
> beware! For the last 5 years a climb speed of less than 135mph
> indicated resulted in temps rocketing to the red or close to it. Now
> he can point it up and hold on without worrying about killing his
> engine. This post was about customer service, not about ECI's being
> a bad product. I'm sure that you will be happy with your engine and
> will have no problems with your Titans. If you do hopefully your
> engine builder will take care of you and not try to sluff you off to
> the manufacturer of the components.
>
> On another note,if one of the builders you are considering using is
> Aero Sport Power I would give it a thumbs up. They have been
> wonderful and have stood behind their product when I have called upon
> them. When I have a question Bart is always patient and explains
> clearly what I need to know. A very good company. My Aero Sport
> engine is very smooth, has 73 hours on it now and I have not added
> oil since the last oil change at 50 hours. It is down from the 8
> quarts I started at to about 6 1/2 quarts showing on the dipstick.
> Pretty normal for an a/c engine. Some I think is on the bottom of my
> plane, and came from the breather tube.
>
> Good luck,
> Bryan
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)"
> wrote:
> >
> > I am a week away from ordering my engine. As you can imagine, this
> thread had me a little worried since the two front runners to get my
> business are using ECI parts. Both companies have a very good
> reputation in the RV community.
> >
> > This is the response from I received when asked one of the
> companies about the flashing issue.
> >
> > "I have looked and looked and looked at new cylinders, old
> cylinders and in
> > between cylinders. I have checked cylinder's from ECI, SAP and LYC.
> I have
> > yet to find any with this flashing.
> > Does or can this flashing make the cylinders run hot? As I can't
> find any
> > with it, I don't know for sure but I don't think so. I have
> partially
> > blocked the area in question and fully blocked the fins there, in
> the test
> > cell environment, on several engines with cylinders from all three
> > sources. The net effect in CHT readings at the normal locations of
> the CHT
> > probe hole and or the lower spark plug gasket boss was
> approximately 10
> > degrees with the fins 100% blocked and about half that with the fins
> > partially blocked. I don't think this is substantial but I don't
> honestly
> > know for sure that the results would be the same in the aircraft
> > environment but I think it would.
> > To answer you question about would we remove any flashing we saw
> anywhere
> > on a cylinder that shouldn't be there....Yes absolutely!"
> > This seems to be one of these things that start a life of their
> own. I am going ECI.
> >
> > Hugh
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "steve zicree" <szicree@...> Time: Thu Dec 9, 2004 10:24 am PST Link
A while back I asked the folks at Superior about a 320 version of the XP360. They said no go yet, but that they do a low compression version of the 360 that runs on mogas.
----- Original Message -----
From: luckymacy@comcast.net
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Re:ECI vs Superior engine parts
Hugh,
Just curious. Who is the company that this past summer at SnF announced certification of an lycoming clone engine that could run on MoGas? Was that Mattituck? Did you give them a close look? I think if I was buying an engine again I'd take a look at that option and their prices seemed to be in line with everyone elses. Plus Mahlon from that company over on the lycoming email list would no doubt bend over backwards to help with answering questions.
Lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
> Hugh,
>
> I wasn't trying to step on anybodys toes with my response. In hopes
> of clarifying what I wrote I called my father in law a few minutes
> ago and had him tell me the sequence of events he went through with
> ECI.
>
> He had ECI cylinders prior to the overhaul I wrote about. The rings
> wore through the coating on the cylinder walls in very short time.
> He couldn't remember if they were semi-chrome or channel chrome? It
> was a long time ago. Regardless of coating they were ECI and made
> metal. There was some kind of problem with the process during
> manufacture and he didn't, and still doesn't have hard feeling with
> ECI over this.
>
> He went with ECI's again when he overhauled in 1999. At the time the
> cylinders were called "Classic Cast" and had 7 cooling fins on the
> head when Lycoming had 9. He was told that there would be no cooling
> problems as a result of this which proved to be incorrect. The
> flashing as everybody is calling it was on the heads, not near the
> exhaust as I implied in my previous post. This did not look like
> metal bridges between the fins as if cast poorly, it appeared as
> machined channels in the heads and looked beautiful. The problem is
> that they were not deep enough to provide cooling and overheated on
> every climbout and in cruise at higher power settings. All of the
> rest of the story was accurate as I wrote it. Since he purchased his
> ECI Classics, ECI has quit offering them, and they have been replaced
> by Titans. I have no idea if this is or is not related to the
> problems I wrote about, or if ECI simply replaced it with a better
> product, or possably one that is easier to produce.
>
> As for his engine now? Everything is great. ECI got it right when
> he shipped them out for rework. It is smooth, cht's in the 350
> degree range, and you couldn't get him to give them up. Again, the
> ECI is probably a fine product, but if you have an issue with them
> beware! For the last 5 years a climb speed of less than 135mph
> indicated resulted in temps rocketing to the red or close to it. Now
> he can point it up and hold on without worrying about killing his
> engine. This post was about customer service, not about ECI's being
> a bad product. I'm sure that you will be happy with your engine and
> will have no problems with your Titans. If you do hopefully your
> engine builder will take care of you and not try to sluff you off to
> the manufacturer of the components.
>
> On another note,if one of the builders you are considering using is
> Aero Sport Power I would give it a thumbs up. They have been
> wonderful and have stood behind their product when I have called upon
> them. When I have a question Bart is always patient and explains
> clearly what I need to know. A very good company. My Aero Sport
> engine is very smooth, has 73 hours on it now and I have not added
> oil since the last oil change at 50 hours. It is down from the 8
> quarts I started at to about 6 1/2 quarts showing on the dipstick.
> Pretty normal for an a/c engine. Some I think is on the bottom of my
> plane, and came from the breather tube.
>
> Good luck,
> Bryan
> --- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Tyler (SunGard-Chico)"
> wrote:
> >
> > I am a week away from ordering my engine. As you can imagine, this
> thread had me a little worried since the two front runners to get my
> business are using ECI parts. Both companies have a very good
> reputation in the RV community.
> >
> > This is the response from I received when asked one of the
> companies about the flashing issue.
> >
> > "I have looked and looked and looked at new cylinders, old
> cylinders and in
> > between cylinders. I have checked cylinder's from ECI, SAP and LYC.
> I have
> > yet to find any with this flashing.
> > Does or can this flashing make the cylinders run hot? As I can't
> find any
> > with it, I don't know for sure but I don't think so. I have
> partially
> > blocked the area in question and fully blocked the fins there, in
> the test
> > cell environment, on several engines with cylinders from all three
> > sources. The net effect in CHT readings at the normal locations of
> the CHT
> > probe hole and or the lower spark plug gasket boss was
> approximately 10
> > degrees with the fins 100% blocked and about half that with the fins
> > partially blocked. I don't think this is substantial but I don't
> honestly
> > know for sure that the results would be the same in the aircraft
> > environment but I think it would.
> > To answer you question about would we remove any flashing we saw
> anywhere
> > on a cylinder that shouldn't be there....Yes absolutely!"
> > This seems to be one of these things that start a life of their
> own. I am going ECI.
> >
> > Hugh
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Bobby Hester" <bhester@...> Time: Thu Dec 9, 2004 11:15 am PST Link
> -----Original Message-----
> From: luckymacy@comcast.net
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 10:41 (CDT)
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Re:ECI vs Superior engine parts
> Hugh,
> Just curious. Who is the company that this past summer at SnF announced
> certification of an lycoming clone engine that could run on MoGas?
That was the Vantage engine by Superior and the XP360 is the experimental version of it both have the same fuel requirments. Yes they can use Mogas but you have to read the fine print.
http://www.superiorairparts.com/xp360.asp#
It kind of says yes you can but we don't reccomend it :-(
-------
Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY
RV7A web site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: jerry2dt@... Time: Thu Dec 9, 2004 2:45 pm PST Link
Steve,
My Superior XP-IO360 has 8.5:1 pistons and o.k. for mogas.
Jerry Cochran
From: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Re:ECI vs Superior engine parts
A while back I asked the folks at Superior about a 320 version of the XP360.
They said no go yet, but that they do a low compression version of the 360
that runs on mogas.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: jerry2dt@... Time: Thu Dec 9, 2004 2:45 pm PST Link
Lucky and all...
Here's a direct quote from Section 9 my XP-360 owner's manual...
9-3 "RUN-IN - Superior runs-in the XP-360 on 100LL leaded avgas to provide
initial lubrication lead to the internal components. After being shipped, no
additional leaded fuel needs to be run. However, leaded 100LL avgas can be
run, or mixed with unleaded auto fuel, in the XP-360 and is encouraged-if
available.
They recommend 91~93 mogas from a "reputable" gas station.
Also...
9-1 "VAPOR PRESSURE- Due to the higher vapor pressure of auto fuel,
carburetor icing and vapor lock are more likely. Avoid fuel temperatures over 85f at
altitudes over 12,500 feet.
Just the same, I think I'll stick to 100LL. Not easy or convenient to even
find mogas when traveling. Less worry about vapor lock, fuss with hauling to
hangar, etc...
Hope this helps...
Jerry Cochran
In a message dated 12/9/2004 11:24:47 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
vansairforce@yahoogroups.com writes:
From: luckymacy@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Re:ECI vs Superior engine parts
Hugh,
Just curious. Who is the company that this past summer at SnF announced
certification of an lycoming clone engine that could run on MoGas? Was that
Mattituck? Did you give them a close look? I think if I was buying an engine
again I'd take a look at that option and their prices seemed to be in line
with everyone elses. Plus Mahlon from that company over on the lycoming email
list would no doubt bend over backwards to help with answering questions.
Lucky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: luckymacy@... Time: Thu Dec 9, 2004 6:52 pm PST Link
nah, i think that's an over reaction depending on where you live, how you fly.
bottom line is folks have been flying with mogas for years with no problems. i have a friend with an older cessna 172 with a mogas certified engine and it's never had any problem related to that. if they warranty it, don't be afraid to use it.
-------------- Original message --------------
> Lucky and all...
>
> Here's a direct quote from Section 9 my XP-360 owner's manual...
>
> 9-3 "RUN-IN - Superior runs-in the XP-360 on 100LL leaded avgas to provide
> initial lubrication lead to the internal components. After being shipped, no
> additional leaded fuel needs to be run. However, leaded 100LL avgas can be
> run, or mixed with unleaded auto fuel, in the XP-360 and is encouraged-if
> available.
>
> They recommend 91~93 mogas from a "reputable" gas station.
>
> Also...
> 9-1 "VAPOR PRESSURE- Due to the higher vapor pressure of auto fuel,
> carburetor icing and vapor lock are more likely. Avoid fuel temperatures over
> 85f at
> altitudes over 12,500 feet.
>
> Just the same, I think I'll stick to 100LL. Not easy or convenient to even
> find mogas when traveling. Less worry about vapor lock, fuss with hauling to
> hangar, etc...
>
> Hope this helps...
>
> Jerry Cochran
>
> In a message dated 12/9/2004 11:24:47 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> vansairforce@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
> From: luckymacy@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: Re:ECI vs Superior engine parts
> Hugh,
> Just curious. Who is the company that this past summer at SnF announced
> certification of an lycoming clone engine that could run on MoGas? Was that
> Mattituck? Did you give them a close look? I think if I was buying an engine
> again I'd take a look at that option and their prices seemed to be in line
> with everyone elses. Plus Mahlon from that company over on the lycoming email
> list would no doubt bend over backwards to help with answering questions.
>
> Lucky
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: "Bobby Hester" <bhester@...> Time: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:13 am PST Link
> -----Original Message-----
> From: luckymacy@comcast.net
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2004 22:53 (CDT)
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Re:ECI vs Superior engine parts
>
> nah, i think that's an over reaction depending on where you live, how you
> fly.
>
> bottom line is folks have been flying with mogas for years with no problems.
> i have a friend with an older cessna 172 with a mogas certified engine and
> it's never had any problem related to that. if they warranty it, don't be
> afraid to use it.
Thats all fine and dandy until you are sitting on the runway give it full throttle and 2 seconds later the engine is bogging down. Been there, done that with a buddy in his RV6A that he had run over 100 hrs. on mogas. We took the cowl off checked the fuel line going into the carb, OK. Then we took the carb apart, OK. Put 100LL in one tank and off he went as the sun was sitting for home. He then tried it again the next day with the other tank, Mogas. The same thing 2 seconds into the takeoff roll engine bogged down. He then took off on the 100LL and after getting to altitude switched to the mogas and then it ran fine. He suspects that the fuel blend may have just been changed for winter or something like that, because it was bought at the same place that it had been for the past 100 hrs. I think it would be good to have 100LL in one tank and Mogas in the other. I think I read somewhere in the xp-360 operators manual that they only reccomend using it in cuise at nearly full thottle. I would have to look that up again to be sure, I remember that becuase I was thinking that kind of defets the reason for using it. It's cheaper but you have to run it at a higher thottle setting so you are going to burn more.
Am I going to use Mogas, yes, but like I describe above and untill I can see if it does save on fuel cost. I am even thinking that mixing the two would be a good way to do it. We will see someday, I hope :-)
-------
Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY
RV7A web site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
$4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Author: Genev E Reed <Genevreed@...> Time: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:49 pm PST Link
Bobby: I burn a 4 to 1 mix of premium auto and 100 low lead. in my 0360
Superior. I have 320 Hrs on the engine and so far never missed a lick.
Doyle Reed RV7A N70723
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1yWplB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Online help on this group at:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/