Author: "Ken Simmons" <ken@...> Time: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:37 pm PST Link
JT,
I've talked to Aaron a couple of times including today. I have a followup question that I thought would be of interest to others so I figured I would ask it here.
Aaron got a quote for me on an RV-3B I was considering. One of the quotes required so many hours of training in type. Obviously, that's not possible, but the insurance underwriter didn't know that.
How is this going to work with the remaining companies. As in, can I still go to Mike Seagar and get training in the RV-6A to satisfy the insurance company for flying an RV-8A?
Thanks.
Ken
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Author: jhelms@... Time: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:49 pm PST Link
Generally, the underwriters (and Van's) want the training to be done
in side by side RVs having the same wheel configuration as the one
being insured (i.e. Tailwheel or Trike).
Sometimes a quote will come in with a training requirement that is
nearly or actually impossible (i.e. dual in an RV-3 or in an RV-4
which is pretty rare). An agent with lots of RV experience will
recognize that and get that requoted by an underwriter with more
homebuilt experience. Generally, for the taildraggers, an RV-6 or 7
would suffice. Generally, for a nose gear a 6A or 9A would be fine.
The RV-10 will be a little different. That is very likely to
require training in a 10 specifically even if you have 500 hours in
a 6A or something.
And those without decent high performance time will likely be
required to get quite a bit of dual instruction before soloing in
your IO-540 powered RV-10.
JT
--- In vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Simmons" <ken@t...> wrote:
>
> JT,
>
> I've talked to Aaron a couple of times including today. I have a
followup question that I thought would be of interest to others so I
figured I would ask it here.
>
> Aaron got a quote for me on an RV-3B I was considering. One of the
quotes required so many hours of training in type. Obviously, that's
not possible, but the insurance underwriter didn't know that.
>
> How is this going to work with the remaining companies. As in, can
I still go to Mike Seagar and get training in the RV-6A to satisfy
the insurance company for flying an RV-8A?
>
> Thanks.
> Ken
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Author: "steve zicree" <szicree@...> Time: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:36 pm PST Link
I've got a question for all those who've actually had to use their insurance, either builder's risk, liability or hull. How were you treated by your insurance provider? Were they fast and fair in the settlement of your claim, or were they slippery and trying to worm their way out of paying up? I've seen a lot of talk about costs, but very little about level of service when the crap hits the fan. I've had two experiences with auto policies in which it became obvious very quickly that their marching orders were "find a way to get out of paying". I'm curious about people's experiences with the aviation coverage.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: Darrell Clay
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Builders workshop
Here's my recent post to the Ohio Valley RVators
e-mail list about the workshop I took with Tom Emery
last weekend:
Anyone out there who's thinking about taking the
plunge and building an RV should definately take the
weekend class sponspored by Tom Emery's Western PA RV
Builders. My Dad and I spent last weekend with Tom,
getting a basic introduction to aircraft tools and
methods of
construction (including priming). We then built the
Van's sample project and discussed applicable
regulations.
Tom and his lovely wife Nikki provided coffee and
doughnuts in the mornings, and a great lunch on both
days of the workshop.
Due to an unfortunate incident involving the nose
gear, Tom's RV-6 is back in the workshop for repairs.
So we got the chance to see the first class
workmanship that Tom did when he built his -6. He also
took the time to answer all of our crazy questions
about "what's this"
and "what's that" on the panel, engine, etc.
Knowing what I know now, I'd have been crazy to
undertake building my -9A without having gone to Tom's
class. It'll be the best $275 that you ever spent on
your RV.
Blue skies,
Darrell Clay
Cleveland, OH
dreaming of a -9A
--- tshort9898 <tshort9898@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for any recommendations for different
> builders workshops
> prior to starting my project.
> Anyone have any experience with SportAir, Tom Emery
> in PA,
> Cleaveland, or any other outfits? It looks like Dan
> Checkoway had a
> good experience with Tom Emery, and PA is not too
> far from Indy; my
> brother lives in Boulder and there is an EAA
> workshop in Denver this
> January.
> Any advice or suggestions would be greatly
> appreciated.
> Thanks in advance
> Thomas
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Author: "jacklockamy" <jacklockamy@...> Time: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:15 am PST Link
My previous aircraft was a Sonex. I had an unfortunate crash on 9/8/02
which totaled the Sonex. (see
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20020913X01607&ntsbno=LAX02LA279&akey=1)
My broker was Falcon with Global as the underwriter. The Falcon reps in San
Diego, CA were on the phone with my girfriend the morning after my crash
while I lay in intensive care!!! Seems they search the accident reports
each morning and take care of their customers. How they found me in the
Ventura County Medical Center is still a mystery to me. Maybe it was the 6
'oclock news report.....
Falcon treated me GREAT! They paid to have my Sonex towed and stored in a
local FBO hangar. Also took care of my home nursing which was required 24
hours a day for about 2 weeks (which my HMO would NOT cover). Can't say
enough nice things about Falcon. They will get my business when it's time
insure the -7A.
Jack Lockamy
Camarillo, CA
-7A FWF
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
To: <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 3:32 PM
Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Insurance
> I've got a question for all those who've actually had to use their
> insurance, either builder's risk, liability or hull. How were you treated
> by your insurance provider? Were they fast and fair in the settlement of
> your claim, or were they slippery and trying to worm their way out of
> paying up? I've seen a lot of talk about costs, but very little about
> level of service when the crap hits the fan. I've had two experiences with
> auto policies in which it became obvious very quickly that their marching
> orders were "find a way to get out of paying". I'm curious about people's
> experiences with the aviation coverage.
>
> Steve Zicree
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Darrell Clay
> To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Builders workshop
> Here's my recent post to the Ohio Valley RVators
> e-mail list about the workshop I took with Tom Emery
> last weekend:
>
> Anyone out there who's thinking about taking the
> plunge and building an RV should definately take the
> weekend class sponspored by Tom Emery's Western PA RV
> Builders. My Dad and I spent last weekend with Tom,
> getting a basic introduction to aircraft tools and
> methods of
> construction (including priming). We then built the
> Van's sample project and discussed applicable
> regulations.
>
> Tom and his lovely wife Nikki provided coffee and
> doughnuts in the mornings, and a great lunch on both
> days of the workshop.
>
> Due to an unfortunate incident involving the nose
> gear, Tom's RV-6 is back in the workshop for repairs.
> So we got the chance to see the first class
> workmanship that Tom did when he built his -6. He also
> took the time to answer all of our crazy questions
> about "what's this"
> and "what's that" on the panel, engine, etc.
>
> Knowing what I know now, I'd have been crazy to
> undertake building my -9A without having gone to Tom's
> class. It'll be the best $275 that you ever spent on
> your RV.
>
> Blue skies,
>
> Darrell Clay
> Cleveland, OH
> dreaming of a -9A
>
> --- tshort9898 <tshort9898@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I'm looking for any recommendations for different
> > builders workshops
> > prior to starting my project.
> > Anyone have any experience with SportAir, Tom Emery
> > in PA,
> > Cleaveland, or any other outfits? It looks like Dan
> > Checkoway had a
> > good experience with Tom Emery, and PA is not too
> > far from Indy; my
> > brother lives in Boulder and there is an EAA
> > workshop in Denver this
> > January.
> > Any advice or suggestions would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> > Thanks in advance
> > Thomas
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Author: "ninerriveteer" <brywd@...> Time: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:22 pm PST Link
Good morning all,
Just sitting here thinking about the insurance topic and started
hitting a few keys on the calculator. According to Vans site there
are 3966 completed RV's. I don't know what the rest of you are
paying for your insurance, but mine is 1800 per year including hull.
That is for a low time pilot in a nosewheel RV.
If all 3966 of us used the same company at the same rate that I pay
it comes out to 7,138,800.00 per year for the insurance company.
With property values so high in the nation now, and medical expenses
skyrocketing it doesn't seem like that much money for a company to
expose itself to so much risk. My wifes uncle and son were killed in
an aircraft accident in 1996 over National Forest were there was no
property damage, just the cleanup of the site and the payout to the
wife. This single accident would have taken about a third of the
moneys collected by the example I gave above. I know rates are high
and it is an awful feeling to write the check, but it is really
pretty amazing that anybody underwrites this product for us.
Sixteen years ago I watched from the back window of the avionics shop
I worked at as a man changed his vacumn pump during a rain, a very
hard rain. Afterwards he did a runup in his tiedown and installed
his cowl. The next day he took off from the airport which is highly
contested by the local community and now has a mall on the approach
and houses on the departure end. On board was his friend, and their
two girlfriends heading off for lunch. Without having a wrench that
would reach those nuts that are so difficult on the pump he just left
two of them loose in trade for not getting such a good soaking. On
climbout all his oil was evacuated and he made a terrible emergency
landing on a house full of Foster Children. Nobody was hurt in the
house, but the two women on board were killed, and his friend later
died in the hospital. The pilot spent the next couple of years being
treated for the burns he sustained in the crash. I don't know what
the payout was to the families of what I call his victims, but I
talked to the Attorneys at Piper about the settlement that he
received. He received two million because his 1969 Lycoming IO360
that was past TBO had a pourous cast on the inside of the case!
Apparently it was demonstrated that his own illegal maintenance
caused the malfunction, but according to the lawyers once a
disfigured person is paraded in front of a jury the payouts are high
and are not always decided on the facts. Human emotion provides
large payouts and the insurance companies have to cover them.
I have friend that had shoulder harnesses installed on his 40 year
old plane that was sold originally with only lap belts. His partner
flew three doctors to Mexico on a flying doctors trip were he buzzed
a village and hit the only tree in the area. My friend was sued
because the shoulder harnesses failed during a high speed contact
with a tree.
The stories go on and on. I'm sure you all have stories like these.
We need to fly safely, and to stop having the accidents that are
preventable. Weather and fuel are issues that we can make a real
impact on as a group. I have an RV-9A, one of about 115 flying to
date, but I haven't checked the actual numbers recently. Of this
small number I know of 4 that have been totaled. One of these was
weather related, and the rest were fuel. Folks, this is the docile
airplane on the Van's offering, the trainer is what I seem to hear
the most, but the accident rate seems very high. I worry about
getting insurance at all in the future based on the high percentage
of aiplanes wrecked.
Mr. Helms, if you are still monitoring this group? When I was
seeking quotes from various sources about three years ago to inquire
about engines choices and coverage I was told that a non aircraft
engine complete firewall forward package was insurable, but if one
company quit offering it a real problem could arise for those opting
for this power source. I was scared back into the Lycoming arena by
the prospect of this happening. Just curious if our friends that
have chosen the other way are in danger of not being able to obtain
insurance in the future. There a probably many on the group deciding
on power plants at this time whose minds could be set at ease with
their choice if coverage will not be a problem. Also, I'm curious if
rates are set by airframe designation, or if the engine choice
factors into the rates. Put one way, will auto conversions cause the
rates to go up for everybody if the accident rate shows to be higher
than with the recommended engine? Put another way, (One that happens
to be the current truth), since RV-9A accidents with Lycomings are
3:1 over auto conversions will the folks with the conversions get a
better rate?
Regards,
Bryan
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Author: Ron Lee <ronlee@...> Time: Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:29 pm PST Link
> Put another way, (One that happens
>to be the current truth), since RV-9A accidents with Lycomings are
>3:1 over auto conversions will the folks with the conversions get a
>better rate?
Of course this "analysis" needs to be clarified. If only two of the RV-9As
have auto conversion engines then the rate for those are mucho higher
than for Lycomings. Look at the rates...not just raw numbers.
Ron "Armchair Statistician" Lee
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Author: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6@...> Time: Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:30 pm PST Link
Good post Bryan. Here are some figures on RV accidents since 1/1/99. It's easy to see that there is considerable opportunity for numerous payouts.
RV acidents from 1/1/99 to present
RV Model Accidents Fatality involved Fatality %
3 5 0 4.10%
4 30 8 24.59%
6 28 4 22.95%
6a 39 12 31.97%
7 0 0 0.00%
7a 2 1 1.64%
8 9 3 7.38%
8a 4 1 3.28%
9 0 0 0.00%
9a 5 0 4.10%
122 29
Tri-gear 49 14
Tail Wheel 71 15
Jerry Calvert
RV6 N296JC
Edmond Ok
----- Original Message -----
From: ninerriveteer
To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:15 AM
Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Insurance
Good morning all,
Just sitting here thinking about the insurance topic and started
hitting a few keys on the calculator. According to Vans site there
are 3966 completed RV's. I don't know what the rest of you are
paying for your insurance, but mine is 1800 per year including hull.
That is for a low time pilot in a nosewheel RV.
If all 3966 of us used the same company at the same rate that I pay
it comes out to 7,138,800.00 per year for the insurance company.
With property values so high in the nation now, and medical expenses
skyrocketing it doesn't seem like that much money for a company to
expose itself to so much risk. My wifes uncle and son were killed in
an aircraft accident in 1996 over National Forest were there was no
property damage, just the cleanup of the site and the payout to the
wife. This single accident would have taken about a third of the
moneys collected by the example I gave above. I know rates are high
and it is an awful feeling to write the check, but it is really
pretty amazing that anybody underwrites this product for us.
Sixteen years ago I watched from the back window of the avionics shop
I worked at as a man changed his vacumn pump during a rain, a very
hard rain. Afterwards he did a runup in his tiedown and installed
his cowl. The next day he took off from the airport which is highly
contested by the local community and now has a mall on the approach
and houses on the departure end. On board was his friend, and their
two girlfriends heading off for lunch. Without having a wrench that
would reach those nuts that are so difficult on the pump he just left
two of them loose in trade for not getting such a good soaking. On
climbout all his oil was evacuated and he made a terrible emergency
landing on a house full of Foster Children. Nobody was hurt in the
house, but the two women on board were killed, and his friend later
died in the hospital. The pilot spent the next couple of years being
treated for the burns he sustained in the crash. I don't know what
the payout was to the families of what I call his victims, but I
talked to the Attorneys at Piper about the settlement that he
received. He received two million because his 1969 Lycoming IO360
that was past TBO had a pourous cast on the inside of the case!
Apparently it was demonstrated that his own illegal maintenance
caused the malfunction, but according to the lawyers once a
disfigured person is paraded in front of a jury the payouts are high
and are not always decided on the facts. Human emotion provides
large payouts and the insurance companies have to cover them.
I have friend that had shoulder harnesses installed on his 40 year
old plane that was sold originally with only lap belts. His partner
flew three doctors to Mexico on a flying doctors trip were he buzzed
a village and hit the only tree in the area. My friend was sued
because the shoulder harnesses failed during a high speed contact
with a tree.
The stories go on and on. I'm sure you all have stories like these.
We need to fly safely, and to stop having the accidents that are
preventable. Weather and fuel are issues that we can make a real
impact on as a group. I have an RV-9A, one of about 115 flying to
date, but I haven't checked the actual numbers recently. Of this
small number I know of 4 that have been totaled. One of these was
weather related, and the rest were fuel. Folks, this is the docile
airplane on the Van's offering, the trainer is what I seem to hear
the most, but the accident rate seems very high. I worry about
getting insurance at all in the future based on the high percentage
of aiplanes wrecked.
Mr. Helms, if you are still monitoring this group? When I was
seeking quotes from various sources about three years ago to inquire
about engines choices and coverage I was told that a non aircraft
engine complete firewall forward package was insurable, but if one
company quit offering it a real problem could arise for those opting
for this power source. I was scared back into the Lycoming arena by
the prospect of this happening. Just curious if our friends that
have chosen the other way are in danger of not being able to obtain
insurance in the future. There a probably many on the group deciding
on power plants at this time whose minds could be set at ease with
their choice if coverage will not be a problem. Also, I'm curious if
rates are set by airframe designation, or if the engine choice
factors into the rates. Put one way, will auto conversions cause the
rates to go up for everybody if the accident rate shows to be higher
than with the recommended engine? Put another way, (One that happens
to be the current truth), since RV-9A accidents with Lycomings are
3:1 over auto conversions will the folks with the conversions get a
better rate?
Regards,
Bryan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Author: jhelms@... Time: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:43 am PST Link
Despite tilting at windmills occassionally, I am still participating
on the RV lists. With over 1200 customers who own RVs, I plan on
continuing to advance those customers' cause with any and all
insurance companies that will listen.
As for auto conversion engines (which I gather was your question),
acceptance (insurability) of those is rising slightly, but ever so
slowly. There is one company which now will insure the Belted Air
Power converted engines (Chevy's right?). As for the Subaru's,
there are now 2 companies which will insure FWF packages from
Eggenfellner and NSI. It is still a pretty precarious situation if
you ask me. It's a little better for them than 3 years ago when you
apparently asked me, but not a whole lot better.
As for the statistics, those will catch up. There are so few flight
hours on Subaru engines and the like in airplanes compared to
Lycomings and their clones it isn't even funny. When there are
hundreds of those auto conversions out there and flying, their
accident rate will likely shake out to the same as other
powerplants. But the uncertainty of that is what prevents lots of
companies from insuring that type of risk. They have 10s of
thousands of airplanes with Continental, Lycomings, etc on their
books now. They can tell you with certainty how much they'll pay
out in a year on Cessna 172s for example. There are so many out
there, it's easy.
JT
> Mr. Helms, if you are still monitoring this group? When I was
> seeking quotes from various sources about three years ago to
inquire
> about engines choices and coverage I was told that a non aircraft
> engine complete firewall forward package was insurable, but if one
> company quit offering it a real problem could arise for those
opting
> for this power source. I was scared back into the Lycoming arena
by
> the prospect of this happening. Just curious if our friends that
> have chosen the other way are in danger of not being able to
obtain
> insurance in the future. There a probably many on the group
deciding
> on power plants at this time whose minds could be set at ease with
> their choice if coverage will not be a problem. Also, I'm curious
if
> rates are set by airframe designation, or if the engine choice
> factors into the rates. Put one way, will auto conversions cause
the
> rates to go up for everybody if the accident rate shows to be
higher
> than with the recommended engine? Put another way, (One that
happens
> to be the current truth), since RV-9A accidents with Lycomings are
> 3:1 over auto conversions will the folks with the conversions get
a
> better rate?
>
> Regards,
> Bryan
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